Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
16,024
Location
Sydney
its like an old man yells at cloud parody at this point

what an idiot
 

KirkDuyt

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
13,236
Location
Dutchland
Supports
Feyenoord
Crikey, so now I'm a nazi for cheering on Robert Downey Jr delivering silly one liners in a fake iron suit?


I get it, the younger generation is weird and out of touch and all their likes and beliefs are stupid, wrong and dangerous.

Now go clean your stoma angry old people.
 

lsd

The Oracle
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
5,064
Crikey, so now I'm a nazi for cheering on Robert Downey Jr delivering silly one liners in a fake iron suit?


I get it, the younger generation is weird and out of touch and all their likes and beliefs are stupid, wrong and dangerous.

Now go clean your stoma angry old people.

Aww did he hurt your feelings ?
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
38,552
Location
Chelsea fan.
His daughter has a sense of humour...

 

R.N7

Such tagline. Wow!
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
35,294
Location
Eating a meal, a succulent chinese meal
Supports
a wife, three kids and Eboue
Legendary comic book creator Alan Moore has accused superhero movies of 'blighting' the industry of cinema.

Several years ago I said I thought it was a really worrying sign, that hundreds of thousands of adults were queuing up to see characters that were created 50 years ago to entertain 12-year-old boys. That seemed to speak to some kind of longing to escape from the complexities of the modern world, and go back to a nostalgic, remembered childhood. That seemed dangerous, it was infantilizing the population.

This may be entirely coincidence but in 2016 when the American people elected a National Socialist satsuma and the UK voted to leave the European Union, six of the top 12 highest grossing films were superhero movies. Not to say that one causes the other but I think they’re both symptoms of the same thing – a denial of reality and an urge for simplistic and sensational solutions.

https://deadline.com/2020/10/alan-m...superhero-movies-blighted-culture-1234594526/
 

HTG

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,756
Supports
Bayern
He has a point. While I think escapism in general is not a bad thing, it might actually be somewhat of a necessity, it is troubling to me, when grown people seriously believe, these movies to be amongst the best ever made.
They are stupid movies that are basically completely interchangeable and don’t challenge the viewer in the slightest way.
Which is nothing wrong. But again, when some 45 year old man seriously believes this to be the pinnacle of cinematic entertainment, that feels like a problem to me.
 

VorZakone

What would Kenny G do?
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
19,955
Fully agree with all the superhero bashing. I think they're awful movies and it shocks me that they generate so much money.
 

Vidyoyo

Self-confessed coffee shop chat-up expert
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
5,323
I don't know about Alan but if I don't feel my real self if I'm not hooked up to a machine that releases dopamine every seven to eight minutes.
 

OnlyTwoDaSilvas

Gullible
Joined
Feb 4, 2013
Messages
18,450
Location
The Mathews Bridge
I don't really expect Alan Moore to give a balanced view on comic books and comic adaptations since he's spent his whole career sneering at both industries whilst being a huge contributor. He seems to never have had a good word to say about the business and I certainly don't agree with his notion comics were primarily for working class children. He certainly didn't write for that audience, that's for certain.

This may be entirely coincidence but in 2016 when the American people elected a National Socialist satsuma and the UK voted to leave the European Union, six of the top 12 highest grossing films were superhero movies. Not to say that one causes the other but I think they’re both symptoms of the same thing – a denial of reality and an urge for simplistic and sensational solutions.
This part is bit iffy too, particularly as you could remove all superhero films from the lists, and the remaining highest grossing movie franchises of all time are still films that are not based on reality but are fantasy stories to varying degrees. Superhero films seem to be an easy target when its clear that fantasy settings are what the masses want, whether its Star Wars or Harry Potter or Game of Thrones or men is capes and tights fighting baddies. The desire for fantasy and science fiction has been rife for decades.

There's only a small amount of superhero films I even like, but it's clear why people do like them. You don't have to like them I don't know why it needs to be dumped on to the point where they're deemed as not even being legitimate to the medium.
 

lsd

The Oracle
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
5,064
Fully agree with all the superhero bashing. I think they're awful movies and it shocks me that they generate so much money.

Seconded i find it very odd so many adults not only watch this genre but then discuss it to the degree they do .

I might watch despicable me but i know what it is and who it is really made for . I don't go around fervently talking about how great the director is and what it all means while having endless duscussions which one would win in a real fight
 

Suv666

Full Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
4,985
Marvel movie are fecking trash. They are the Gossip Girl of movies. If you derive any pleasure or satisfaction from it, carry on but if you claim they are actually good movies then you're a moron.

Joker and The Dark Knight I reckon are good movies. Does that make me a hypocrite?
 

Cheimoon

Up-and-comer
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
1,373
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
This part is bit iffy too, particularly as you could remove all superhero films from the lists, and the remaining highest grossing movie franchises of all time are still films that are not based on reality but are fantasy stories to varying degrees. Superhero films seem to be an easy target when its clear that fantasy settings are what the masses want, whether its Star Wars or Harry Potter or Game of Thrones or men is capes and tights fighting baddies. The desire for fantasy and science fiction has been rife for decades.

There's only a small amount of superhero films I even like, but it's clear why people do like them. You don't have to like them I don't know why it needs to be dumped on to the point where they're deemed as not even being legitimate to the medium.
That's it, I think. If studios would be banned (somehow) from making superhero movies, they wouldn't turn to intellectual dramas instead. There were few superhero movies in the 90s, but to my mind, there is really no conceptual difference with mega-hits like Jurassic Park, The Matrix, Armageddon, Men in Black, and so on, or a lot of Disney stuff. I mean, just take a look at IMDB's list of the 20 highest grossing films of he 90s (link to full top 50):

1. Titanic (1997)
2. Jurassic Park (1993)
3. Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999)
4. The Lion King (1994)
5. Independence Day (1996)
6. Forrest Gump (1994)
7. The Sixth Sense (1999)
8. The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997)
9. Men in Black (1997)
10. Armageddon (1998)
11. Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991)
12. Ghost (1990)
13. Aladdin (1992)
14. Toy Story 2 (1999)
15. Twister (1996)
16. Saving Private Ryan (1998)
17. Home Alone (1990)
18. The Matrix (1999)
19. Pretty Woman (1990)
20. Mission: Impossible (1996)

The only films here that could be accused of real artistic value (very loosely defined) are probably Forrest Gump, The Sixth Sense, and Saving Private Ryan.
 

lsd

The Oracle
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
5,064
That's it, I think. If studios would be banned (somehow) from making superhero movies, they wouldn't turn to intellectual dramas instead. There were few superhero movies in the 90s, but to my mind, there is really no conceptual difference with mega-hits like Jurassic Park, The Matrix, Armageddon, Men in Black, and so on, or a lot of Disney stuff. I mean, just take a look at IMDB's list of the 20 highest grossing films of he 90s (link to full top 50):

1. Titanic (1997)
2. Jurassic Park (1993)
3. Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999)
4. The Lion King (1994)
5. Independence Day (1996)
6. Forrest Gump (1994)
7. The Sixth Sense (1999)
8. The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997)
9. Men in Black (1997)
10. Armageddon (1998)
11. Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991)
12. Ghost (1990)
13. Aladdin (1992)
14. Toy Story 2 (1999)
15. Twister (1996)
16. Saving Private Ryan (1998)
17. Home Alone (1990)
18. The Matrix (1999)
19. Pretty Woman (1990)
20. Mission: Impossible (1996)

The only films here that could be accused of real artistic value (very loosely defined) are probably Forrest Gump, The Sixth Sense, and Saving Private Ryan.

All true stories
 

SalfordRed18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
7,444
Location
Salford
Supports
Ashwood City FC
Legendary comic book creator Alan Moore has accused superhero movies of 'blighting' the industry of cinema.

Several years ago I said I thought it was a really worrying sign, that hundreds of thousands of adults were queuing up to see characters that were created 50 years ago to entertain 12-year-old boys. That seemed to speak to some kind of longing to escape from the complexities of the modern world, and go back to a nostalgic, remembered childhood. That seemed dangerous, it was infantilizing the population.

This may be entirely coincidence but in 2016 when the American people elected a National Socialist satsuma and the UK voted to leave the European Union, six of the top 12 highest grossing films were superhero movies. Not to say that one causes the other but I think they’re both symptoms of the same thing – a denial of reality and an urge for simplistic and sensational solutions.

https://deadline.com/2020/10/alan-m...superhero-movies-blighted-culture-1234594526/
Think that's bollocks tbh. Quite a lot of the stories and characters are metaphors for real world issues. The X-Men for example is metaphor of discrimination and segregation.

Whilst I agree it's fun nostalgia, some of stories are quite the opposite of escaping the complexities of the modern world.

Too many times I've seen people reducing every comic down to a dumb picture book for kids.

And marvel have churned out high grossing films year after year since 2008, what link are you trying create here?
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,349
Location
Germany
Obviously the top sellers will almost always be (somewhat) dumbed down entertainment, because that reaches the biggest number of people. But there is a world of difference between watching The Matrix, Terminator II, Saving Private Ryan, Independence Day - not all of them super original or intelligent, but with quite distinct differences between and watching 15 Marvel movies a year (that might as well be written in a day), to the point where people are forming a bond with this stuff.
 

The holy trinity 68

The disparager
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
2,646
Location
Manchester
Who really cares about this stuff? At the end of the day, every movie is made to entertain people. If Superhero movies entertain people then job done, if Scorsese movies entertain people then job done.

However, Scorsese sounds like a bitter old man just because more people watch Superhero movies than his movies.
 

Cheimoon

Up-and-comer
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
1,373
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
Obviously the top sellers will almost always be (somewhat) dumbed down entertainment, because that reaches the biggest number of people. But there is a world of difference between watching The Matrix, Terminator II, Saving Private Ryan, Independence Day - not all of them super original or intelligent, but with quite distinct differences between and watching 15 Marvel movies a year (that might as well be written in a day), to the point where people are forming a bond with this stuff.
I'm not sure. Saving Private Ryan doesn't belong in the list; that's more like Dunkirk now. I don't see how Independence Day is more intelligent or better done than most Marvel movies. There is some flimsy moral attached to it, but you also get that in Black Panther (which had a big social impact), and Avengers 2 also explores the morality of superhero destruction. Terminator 2 stands our more to me, but you also have good action movies now - like the Dark Knight trilogy. (Yes, I'm going for a Christopher Nolan theme.) I do like those 90s films more than the Marvel stuff, but that might also have to do with youth nostalgia; it's hard to tease those apart. Although I guess you could say that the Marvel movies are a lot more 'a dime a dozen'. As for the Matrix - its stand-out is its pseudo-intellectual approach and novel camerawork; but for those, you also have stuff like Inception or Tenet now.

So I don't know about those big differences. To me, the one real difference is that so many superhero movies make enormous amounts of money now, that dwarf others in ways I had not seen before. I don't think that reflects on 'cinema' though, it probably has more to do with the way films are advertised and hyped now (although I don't follow any of that enough to be able to say how it's different from, say, the 90s).

I should say that I didn't actually read the entire thread; maybe I'm just rehashing points here... (and have long been proven wrong)
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,349
Location
Germany
I'm not sure. Saving Private Ryan doesn't belong in the list; that's more like Dunkirk now. I don't see how Independence Day is more intelligent or better done than most Marvel movies. There is some flimsy moral attached to it, but you also get that in Black Panther (which had a big social impact), and Avengers 2 also explores the morality of superhero destruction. Terminator 2 stands our more to me, but you also have good action movies now - like the Dark Knight trilogy. (Yes, I'm going for a Christopher Nolan theme.) I do like those 90s films more than the Marvel stuff, but that might also have to do with youth nostalgia; it's hard to tease those apart. Although I guess you could say that the Marvel movies are a lot more 'a dime a dozen'. As for the Matrix - its stand-out is its pseudo-intellectual approach and novel camerawork; but for those, you also have stuff like Inception or Tenet now.

So I don't know about those big differences. To me, the one real difference is that so many superhero movies make enormous amounts of money now, that dwarf others in ways I had not seen before. I don't think that reflects on 'cinema' though, it probably has more to do with the way films are advertised and hyped now (although I don't follow any of that enough to be able to say how it's different from, say, the 90s).

I should say that I didn't actually read the entire thread; maybe I'm just rehashing points here... (and have long been proven wrong)
I wasn't necessarily referring to the quality of the movies I mentioned, more to the fact that compared to each other every one of them was an original movie, an independent idea. Whereas now people are eager to watch the 25th iteration of the same formula within a couple of years. Maybe it was just my personal bubble, but I remember times where everyone loathed sequels, compulsively saying how the initial movie was always the best. Now it seems like things have actually shifted towards the opposite.
And I would actually use the Nolan trilogy to contrast the current Marvel spree, because those movies definitely weren't the equivalent of a McDonald's cheeseburger.
 

Cheimoon

Up-and-comer
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
1,373
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
I wasn't necessarily referring to the quality of the movies I mentioned, more to the fact that compared to each other every one of them was an original movie, an independent idea. Whereas now people are eager to watch the 25th iteration of the same formula within a couple of years. Maybe it was just my personal bubble, but I remember times where everyone loathed sequels, compulsively saying how the initial movie was always the best. Now it seems like things have actually shifted towards the opposite.
And I would actually use the Nolan trilogy to contrast the current Marvel spree, because those movies definitely weren't the equivalent of a McDonald's cheeseburger.
Yeah, that's one thing with the whole Marvel spree: they're all a bunch together. In the 90s, you had a Jerry Bruckheimer spree (The Rock, Con-Air, Face/Off, and Armageddon immediately come to mind), but they didn't feel as same-ish cause they had nothing in common except for the producer. Maybe the movie blockbuster industry has gone the video game route, where establishing a franchise is the hard part, and after that it's just a matter of milking it dry - rather than trying something new.

I didn't mean Nolan's work is like the Marvel movies btw; just that there are also still blockbusters that have a bit more to them than Marvel films, kinda like The Matrix wasn't just another action flick in the 90s.
 

Cascarino

Full Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
2,973
Location
Wales
Supports
Swansea
Seconded i find it very odd so many adults not only watch this genre but then discuss it to the degree they do .
Not at all like the top minds on here discussing the intricacies of left footed penalties
 

Cascarino

Full Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
2,973
Location
Wales
Supports
Swansea
, Independence Day
You fecking wot m8?
However, Scorsese sounds like a bitter old man just because more people watch Superhero movies than his movies.
I don’t think Scorsese cares about the marvel Movies in that sense. He just doesn’t interpret them as cinema in the way he views it, which I think is a fair enough stance
 

The holy trinity 68

The disparager
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
2,646
Location
Manchester
You fecking wot m8?


I don’t think Scorsese cares about the marvel Movies in that sense. He just doesn’t interpret them as cinema in the way he views it, which I think is a fair enough stance
What does it even mean though, what is classed as cinema? All movies are for entertainment. One film can't really be viewed as cinema over another as everyone has a preference.

I love Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Gangs of New York and The Departed but for me The Dark Knight is better than them all. I also love a lot of superhero movies. People can enjoy both and can find ridiculous action films better than crime dramas.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
103,619
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
What does it even mean though, what is classed as cinema? All movies are for entertainment. One film can't really be viewed as cinema over another as everyone has a preference.

I love Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Gangs of New York and The Departed but for me The Dark Knight is better than them all. I also love a lot of superhero movies. People can enjoy both and can find ridiculous action films better than crime dramas.
People can prefer the Venga Boys to the Beatles. That’s allowed. But they shouldn’t take offence if someone who knows a lot about music criticises their taste.
 

KirkDuyt

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
13,236
Location
Dutchland
Supports
Feyenoord
Marvel movie are fecking trash. They are the Gossip Girl of movies. If you derive any pleasure or satisfaction from it, carry on but if you claim they are actually good movies then you're a moron.

Joker and The Dark Knight I reckon are good movies. Does that make me a hypocrite?
Nah, just a moron.
 

The holy trinity 68

The disparager
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
2,646
Location
Manchester
People can prefer the Venga Boys to the Beatles. That’s allowed. But they shouldn’t take offence if someone who knows a lot about music criticises their taste.
Just because someone knows a lot about something doesn't make their opinion any more right. If that person can back it up with facts then fair enough, otherwise it is just an opinion.
 
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
6,756
Who really cares about this stuff? At the end of the day, every movie is made to entertain people. If Superhero movies entertain people then job done, if Scorsese movies entertain people then job done.

However, Scorsese sounds like a bitter old man just because more people watch Superhero movies than his movies.
agree totally.

cinema is entertainment, it’s escapism. What’s the problem with people enjoying a particular type of film?

perhaps not everyone enjoys 3.5 hour gangster films?

Sounds like film snobbery. A bit like when people pick an album of the year, that’s weird as shit and no one has ever heard over something that’s popular. Just because something is popular, doesn’t mean it has no artistic value.

I watch the odd superhero film. I really liked The Dark Knight Trilogy, I’m not a big fan. But it’s pretty easy to avoid watching these films if you don’t like them.
 

The holy trinity 68

The disparager
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
2,646
Location
Manchester
What facts would you need to prove that the Beatles made better music than the Vengaboys?
I am not even referring to that. I am referring to you saying 'But they shouldn’t take offence if someone who knows a lot about music criticises their taste.'

I was referring to opinions in general, just because Scorsese says Marvel isn't cinema doesn't mean it is fact.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
103,619
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
I am not even referring to that. I am referring to you saying 'But they shouldn’t take offence if someone who knows a lot about music criticises their taste.'

I was referring to opinions in general, just because Scorsese says Marvel isn't cinema doesn't mean it is fact.
And I’m pointing out that some opinions carry more weight than others and it is possible for art to have objective quality.

I’m not denying you the right to enjoy Marvel movies (or the Vengaboys) but you shouldn’t get hurt feelings if people who know more than you about film (or music) think the stuff you enjoy is crap.

Full disclosure. I’ve watched a load of Marvel movies and enjoyed most of them.
 
Last edited:

Bilbo

Full Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
10,422
Watch them. Enjoy them. Forget all about them.

Superhero movies are fine. I struggle to find appropriate movies to watch with my daughters, and these work. It gets a little worrying when adults are discussing them as though they actually carry any weight though, and its highly depressing when cinema listings are wall to wall fantasy movies
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
13,215
Location
The Ruler Of The Supermarkets
Scorsese view on what makes something cinema.

“I tried, you know?” the director said when asked if he had seen Marvel’s movies. “But that’s not cinema.”

He continued: “Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.”
 

dumbo

Don't Just Fly…Soar!
Scout
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
7,827
That's it, I think. If studios would be banned (somehow) from making superhero movies, they wouldn't turn to intellectual dramas instead. There were few superhero movies in the 90s, but to my mind, there is really no conceptual difference with mega-hits like Jurassic Park, The Matrix, Armageddon, Men in Black, and so on, or a lot of Disney stuff. I mean, just take a look at IMDB's list of the 20 highest grossing films of he 90s (link to full top 50):

1. Titanic (1997)
2. Jurassic Park (1993)
3. Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999)
4. The Lion King (1994)
5. Independence Day (1996)
6. Forrest Gump (1994)
7. The Sixth Sense (1999)
8. The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997)
9. Men in Black (1997)
10. Armageddon (1998)
11. Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991)
12. Ghost (1990)
13. Aladdin (1992)
14. Toy Story 2 (1999)
15. Twister (1996)
16. Saving Private Ryan (1998)
17. Home Alone (1990)
18. The Matrix (1999)
19. Pretty Woman (1990)
20. Mission: Impossible (1996)

The only films here that could be accused of real artistic value (very loosely defined) are probably Forrest Gump, The Sixth Sense, and Saving Private Ryan.
You'd struggle to find films that match the exemplary technique, craft and filmmaking artistry on display in the two Disney animations listed.

Avatar is not a good film - and I think I hate James Cameron - but it has ambition and filmmaking innovation. Likewise Titanic, Jurassic Park etc. The blockbuster movie serves a role, and preferably provides a healthy contribution to the cinematic landscape.

I would say that most of the top grossing list would be suitable as part of a rounded cinematic diet. Yes you must eat your Greenaways but there is variety and nourishment in there.

Marvel Cynimatic Universe produces tacky, ugly, artless shit. And at a rate that is unconscionable. I am glad that people are speaking out.

I would even defend Nolan's filmmaking - if not the batman films themselves. Marvel are doubly sinful, both in terms of quality and quantity. MCU are the chief polluters.

I also agree with Moore's more general cultural criticism, as curmudgeonly and partisan as it is.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
25,258
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
I forgot most superhero movies.
Between the 20 of so i watched i forgot them all, who's who what's what.

I stil remember pesci line from 20 years ago.

Superheroine movies are like sex with lingerie models if you're a billionaire. Scorsese movies are high school sex. It lasts in your memories like the sweet wine.

If i can erase my memories I'd rather rewatch casino in big cinema rather than avengers. Honest. No sanctimonious artistic crap. It's just a very emotionally rewarding movie. With avengers I'd literally forgot it the next day.

Maybe if they only make 1-2 like the LOTR it'll be remembered as a masterpiece. But i feel desensitized with superheroes movie up to a point I'm sick of them. Still watching it but feels like an obligatory cold wank on a boring day
 

Cheimoon

Up-and-comer
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
1,373
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
You'd struggle to find films that match the exemplary technique, craft and filmmaking artistry on display in the two Disney animations listed.

Avatar is not a good film - and I think I hate James Cameron - but it has ambition and filmmaking innovation. Likewise Titanic, Jurassic Park etc. The blockbuster movie serves a role, and preferably provides a healthy contribution to the cinematic landscape.

I would say that most of the top grossing list would be suitable as part of a rounded cinematic diet. Yes you must eat your Greenaways but there is variety and nourishment in there.

Marvel Cynimatic Universe produces tacky, ugly, artless shit. And at a rate that is unconscionable. I am glad that people are speaking out.

I would even defend Nolan's filmmaking - if not the batman films themselves. Marvel are doubly sinful, both in terms of quality and quantity. MCU are the chief polluters.

I also agree with Moore's more general cultural criticism, as curmudgeonly and partisan as it is.
Yeah, when I found a list of actual 90s blockbusters, I realized my argument wasn't working the way I had expected it to - but I ploughed anyway, and here we are. :wenger: In my defense, I did for that reason avoid mentioning Titanic (or Avatar, for that matter). And with 'Disney films', I didn't mean the Lion King or prime Pixar (which anyway wasn't Disney of course). But I would say they both have made some by-the-numbers thrash as well. (Pixar mostly the Cars series; although Cars 1 had its merits.)

I would still support what I said in later posts though: that the MCU is similar to stuff like a lot of the 90/00s blockbusters produced by Jerry Bruckheimer (Bad Boys, Con Air, Armageddon, The Rock, Pearl Harbour, Pirates of the Caribbean (all of 'm), National Treasure). All enjoyable pulp, and I would struggle to see for any of them what they add to 'cinema' - and I just don't see how the MCU is worse than that. None of them are meant to stand for something bigger, all just entertain, and mostly successfully. (I don't think Nolan belongs here at all. He clearly does try to do 'bigger' things.)

So as I said in those later posts, maybe the point is rather that these brainless action movies have become so enormous now. That, to me, is the real difference with the 90s: the way this sort of film has pretty much taken over blockbuster cinema. There is a lot less variation and 'interesting cinema' if you look at IMDB's equivalent list of the 2010s. I'd be interested to learn more about the dynamic behind that, if anybody has a clue.
 

Vidyoyo

Self-confessed coffee shop chat-up expert
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
5,323
Having spoken to a few comic-book movie fans over the years, it seems that they number one thing they enjoy about these movies are the characters. They like to attach themselves to the on-screen personas and everything else is just there for the ride; the exciting, action parts and black/white morality logic. Personally I don't get it because I've always thought films need some kind of tension to keep them interesting. That can come from the story and events; it can also come from the editing/filming/cinematography. If a film is a little off, it takes you outside of your internal world. I just can't imagine wanting to go into a film knowing exactly how it'll pan out but, whatevz, everybody's different.

The issue I think with Scorsese saying it is that, while he's a really good filmmaker and totally correct, he does have certain fans who enjoy his movies precisely because of the characters. If you look at his work, a lot are about gangsters or downtrodden violent men who act a lot like gangsters. If you talk to somebody about Goodfellas or Wolf of Wall Street for instance, many just remember the characters and their one-liners. Of course it's nowhere near as bad as comic-book movies because there's actual psychological depth and, in most cases, dramatic involvement. While Scorsese's intentions are good, I'm convinced that some of his own fans aren't necessarily that different to the comic-book ones.

It's a bit like when The Irishman released and people were like, wow a new Scorsese film, I must watch that. Whereas they didn't necessarily rush to watch Hugo because the type of characters involved weren't quite the same.

I'm not exactly sure what my point is but I'm definitely not complaining about Scorsese's movies. Just passing a comment about how his own audience isn't that different to what we see with todays comic-book movie fans.
 

Oldyella

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
3,226
I would still support what I said in later posts though: that the MCU is similar to stuff like a lot of the 90/00s blockbusters produced by Jerry Bruckheimer (Bad Boys, Con Air, Armageddon, The Rock, Pearl Harbour, Pirates of the Caribbean (all of 'm), National Treasure). All enjoyable pulp, and I would struggle to see for any of them what they add to 'cinema' - and I just don't see how the MCU is worse than that. None of them are meant to stand for something bigger, all just entertain, and mostly successfully. (I don't think Nolan belongs here at all. He clearly does try to do 'bigger' things.)
The main difference is one studio is producing all of these successful movies, so they feel 'similar' no matter what theme it has. Guardians is an epic space adventure, but feels similar to Thor, which has more of a fantasy feel. I love the marvel flicks but you cant deny they are similar in feel no matter the directors or stars. In fact I'm sure my favourite, Winter Soldier, is partly my favourite becuase it lent on the spy thriller tropes and feels very different to the others.


It's a bit like when The Irishman released and people were like, wow a new Scorsese film, I must watch that. Whereas they didn't necessarily rush to watch Hugo because the type of characters involved weren't quite the same.

I'm not exactly sure what my point is but I'm definitely not complaining about Scorsese's movies. Just passing a comment about how his own audience isn't that different to what we see with todays comic-book movie fans.
I'm sure people complained about westerns years ago when they were a big % of the market. The market will pivot to something else when interest wanes. Which could easily happen now with the Thanos, Iron Man and Cap era over. I will just enjoy them while they make em. If people dont like them, more power to them. If everyone liked the same thing, the world would be a boring place.
 

Cheimoon

Up-and-comer
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
1,373
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
The main difference is one studio is producing all of these successful movies, so they feel 'similar' no matter what theme it has. Guardians is an epic space adventure, but feels similar to Thor, which has more of a fantasy feel. I love the marvel flicks but you cant deny they are similar in feel no matter the directors or stars. In fact I'm sure my favourite, Winter Soldier, is partly my favourite becuase it lent on the spy thriller tropes and feels very different to the others.
Oh, absolutely, I agree they're very same-ish. Although I'd say picking Thor and Guardians as films you'd expect to be more different sounds odd to me, cause they are both set in outer space (except for the first Thor). If anything, I'd expect those to be most similar of the bunch. But yeah, all those films have a similar vibe, feel, colouring, and lack of artistic adventure (except on social issues sometimes). But that's like any movies franchise though. I haven't watched the Fast & Furious movies (9 in total by now), but I imagine their (lack of) diversity from one film to another is pretty similar; same for the Transformers franchise.