Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

stevoc

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I think it can be boiled down to two reasons:

1. Unless a movie is part of a planned trilogy like LOTR for instance, then the movie itself should be good as a conclusive standalone. When they made The Terminator in the 80's, it was more than good enough as a standalone film. There was not any real need for a Terminator 2, even though that movie arguably is better and does in no way ruin the first film. Marvel is essentially trying to keep people hooked indefinitely. Some of their films feel like long chapters in an ongoing comic book series.

2. It really screams "we have feck you money" when a studio can "predict" the future. Before, when an original blockbuster with sequel potential was released, studios generally wanted to see how well it does before committing to a sequel. Adding a bunch of stuff to an already expensive movie that only makes sense if there's a sequel was probably considered a bad decision. But Marvel are so confident in their success that they can commit to this. It's as if failure isn't even considered to be an option. And in their defence: they are right! :p
Well to be fair they are part of a planned ongoing series of movies. While shared universes are not a thing Marvel invented they were probably the first to start out with a plan on having an ongoing story over 10+ movies.

On the second point it might seem like that now but before the Disney buy out Marvel basically risked everything trying to start a shared universe of movies. I think they had released 4-5 movies before Disney bought them. I remember reading they financed the first movies through a $500-600m loan using all their rights as collateral. Had those first few bombed Marvel Studios probably wouldn't be a thing anymore, all their characters would be owned by other studios.

And while Marvels movies are obviously not to the tastes of everyone other studios with more famous characters like WB and Universal have shown that creating a cohesive story over multiple movies that are financially successful enough to warrant it continuing isn't exactly an easy task. Yeah with this approach no doubt the directors lose some independence and creativity being more like the Directors on a TV show where they come in and are given a general outline of what is expected of them. I've never read comics myself but for the medium of comic book characters I imagine it's the best approach for bringing them to the big screen as that's how the comics were so successful. Presenting a group of characters in an ongoing story.

To an extent these Marvel movies are something new, they are more like a massive budget TV show dressed up as Movies. So I can see where Scorsese is coming from to be honest, I don't think he meant his comments to be as critical as a lot of people interpreted them.
 

OleBoiii

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To an extent these Marvel movies are something new, they are more like a massive budget TV show dressed up as Movies.
Bingo.

Whether that is a bad thing is purely subjective. But no one can deny that it's very different from how movies used to be. People aren't primarily drawn in by the directors, actors or word of mouth. In some cases they aren't even drawn in the comic book characters themselves. I doubt most people were hyped about Ant Man or Thor. The Marvel logo is the many cases the main draw. It's what makes people go from "what is this bullshit" to "oh, it's Marvel! Then it's worth a shot!".

The same could of course be said of Disney and Pixar animations, but the difference is that most of these films are stand-alone films with the odd sequel(that often also works well as a stand-alone).

So I can see where Scorsese is coming from to be honest, I don't think he meant his comments to be as critical as a lot of people interpreted them.
It's the nature of the internet these days. People need to freak out over something. Any statement will be twisted into the most mean-spirited interpretation possible.
 

acnumber9

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Agree that there are still great movies still getting made today and that Hollywood has always made ton of shite and will continue to after Super hero movies but I do think the last decade has easily been the worse(Hopefully these numbers are correct).
Look at the difference in original or new films in those lists between 80’s and 90’s and now. That’s the biggest issue for me. New ideas being squeezed out.
 

OleBoiii

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Look at the difference in original or new films in those lists between 80’s and 90’s and now. That’s the biggest issue for me. New ideas being squeezed out.
Even the difference between the 2000's and 2010's is pretty significant.

The 2000's has 3 originals, 2 LOTR films(which are part of a risky trilogy, as the fantasy genre did really poorly before LOTR) and a sequel to a new original(Shrek 2). The most original thing about the 2010 list is The Incredibles 2, and that was a completely unnecessary sequel made long after the first one.
 

stevoc

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Bingo.

Whether that is a bad thing is purely subjective. But no one can deny that it's very different from how movies used to be. People aren't primarily drawn in by the directors, actors or word of mouth. In some cases they aren't even drawn in the comic book characters themselves. I doubt most people were hyped about Ant Man or Thor. The Marvel logo is the many cases the main draw. It's what makes people go from "what is this bullshit" to "oh, it's Marvel! Then it's worth a shot!".

The same could of course be said of Disney and Pixar animations, but the difference is that most of these films are stand-alone films with the odd sequel(that often also works well as a stand-alone).



It's the nature of the internet these days. People need to freak out over something. Any statement will be twisted into the most mean-spirited interpretation possible.
Franchises, Reboots, Sequels, Prequels etc. are now King. While Marvel certainly accelerated that trend they didn't start it. Movie studios goal is to make money primarily like any business and they react to trends and whatever audiences want to see which will ultimately make money. If you look at the box office lists Sweet Square posted the trend started in the 2000's with arguably only one or two movies in the top 10 that didn't have existing fan bases and/or were based on well known characters/properties.

I think the medium is changing and the lines between Movies and big budget TV will continue to blur as we move further into the world of streaming services.
 

caid

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I cant really tell the difference between the lists Sweet Square posted at a glance. I get that Beverly Hills Cop is technically a new, original property and it supports your point ... but I dont feel that inclined to mourn its loss or it being replaced by Black Panther. Interesting discussion all the same.
 

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I cant really tell the difference between the lists Sweet Square posted at a glance. I get that Beverly Hills Cop is technically a new, original property and it supports your point ... but I dont feel that inclined to mourn its loss or it being replaced by Black Panther. Interesting discussion all the same.
The point is that it wasn't 90% the same studio and 80% variations on the same thing.
 

caid

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The point is that it wasn't 90% the same studio and 80% variations on the same thing.
Yeah was looking at it on my phone, just noticed the long line of Disney for the last decade. Their monopoly on the industry and of so many American cultural icons looks a pretty big problem, especially in this time where franchises are so significant.
I'm being a bit pedantic with his list i think - if he put up the list for the 70's or the 60's i feel like they'd be drastically stronger and a time when hollywood was genuinely great. Looking at the 80's and seeing Star Wars, Indiana Jones, a Spielberg film and a cop buddy film which were bloody everywhere at the time just feels meh. I'm not nostalgic for that time, Marvel and so on just feel a natural extension of that. Didn't they make like 5 Beverly Hills Cops or something crazy?
Overall I'm not especially interested or knowledgeable about the finance side of the movie industry and dont think its relevant to a discussion on cinema as art (disney's monopoly probably is, i haven't really thought about that). Pretty much everything on each list would be a stretch to call art imo.
 

BusbyMalone

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James Gunn getting his panties in a bunch over it now. He was speaking on some podcast about it and said this:

It just seems awfully cynical that he kept coming out against Marvel, and that’s the only thing that would get him press for his movie, so then he just kept coming out against Marvel so that he could get press for his movie.

So he’s creating his movie in the shadow of the Marvel films, and so he uses that to get attention for something that he wasn’t getting as much attention as he wanted for it
I'm not saying that Scorsese is above marketing his own movies, but to suggest he only made those comments becuase of that is pretty absurd. He really got under the skin of these guys.
 

Pogue Mahone

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According to Scorsese it's this




I think with the movies mentioned above there's at least some attempt to put forward the ideas Scorsese mentions in the NYT article. While Scott was clearly high on his own supply while making those Aliens film, they were his films and his attempt to tell a story(The same can be said of Intersteller). Imo Bladerunner 2049 bombing at the box office, shows why it's not similar to the Marvel films. That isn't to say there isn't a dystopian element around these films. The fact Denis Villeneuve needs to dress up his movies in 80's nostalgia just to get funding is pretty depressing.



To see watch any film that isn't a franchise in the cinema I have to go to a small arthouse cinema. A giant director like Tarantino had to go public in order for his films to be shown at his favourite cinema. Giants corporations like Disney are simply book up entire cinemas and stopping the ability to see other films. These's franchise films are like the blob, consuming everything in slight. They also end up destroying new directors, as it's a lottery win for the inexperienced director terms of a pay day but they have little say on the creative process. Which means the Disney movies all look the same, sound the same and they all have the same mind numbingly dull liberal world view(Some credit has to go to Zack Synder for being a insane muscle loving libertarian). The end result is production line for movies.


Agree that there are still great movies still getting made today and that Hollywood has always made ton of shite and will continue to after Super hero movies but I do think the last decade has easily been the worse(Hopefully these numbers are correct).
Film
Distributor
Year
Gross
1E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial #*Universal
1982
$399.805 M
2Return of the Jedi #*20th Century Fox
1983
$263.837 M
3BatmanWarner Bros.
1989
$252.101 M
4Raiders of the Lost Ark #*Paramount
1981
$245.034 M
5Ghostbusters #*Columbia
1984
$238.632 M
6Beverly Hills CopParamount
1984
$234.760 M
7The Empire Strikes Back #*20th Century Fox
1980
$222.674 M
8Back to the Future *Universal
1985
$210.610 M
9Indiana Jones and the Last CrusadeParamount
1989
$197.172 M
10Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
Film
Distributor
Year
Gross
1Titanic *Paramount
1997
$600.788 M
2Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace *20th Century Fox
1999
$431.088 M
3Jurassic Park #*Universal
1993
$357.068 M
4Forrest Gump #*Paramount
1994
$329.694 M
5The Lion King *Disney
1994
$312.856 M
6Independence Day20th Century Fox
1996
$306.169 M
7The Sixth SenseDisney
1999
$293.506 M
8Home Alone20th Century Fox
1990
$285.761 M
9Men in BlackSony / Columbia
1997
$250.691 M
10Toy Story 2 *Disney
1999
Film
Distributor
Year
Gross
1Avatar *20th Century Fox
2009
$749.766 M
2The Dark Knight *Warner Bros.
2008
$533.345 M
3Shrek 2DreamWorks
2004
$441.226 M
4Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's ChestDisney
2006
$423.316 M
5Spider-ManSony / Columbia
2002
$407.023 M
6Transformers: Revenge of the FallenParamount / DWorks
2009
$402.112 M
7Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith20th Century Fox
2005
$380.271 M
8The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King *New Line
2003
$377.027 M
9Spider-Man 2Sony / Columbia
2004
$373.586 M
10The Passion of the Christ #Newmarket
2004
$370.783 M
Film
Distributor
Year
Gross
1Star Wars: The Force AwakensDisney
2015
$936.662 M
2Avengers: EndgameDisney
2019
$858.373 M
3Black PantherDisney
2018
$700.060 M
4Avengers: Infinity WarDisney
2018
$678.815 M
5Jurassic WorldUniversal
2015
$652.271 M
6Marvel's The AvengersDisney
2012
$623.358 M
7Star Wars: The Last JediDisney
2017
$620.181 M
8Incredibles 2Disney
2018
$608.582 M
9The Lion King
Fecking hell.

Excellent (and depressing) post.
 

VorZakone

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Disney will be the death of cinema. They're an extremely efficient machine churning out lots of money-making crap.
 

Welsh Wonder

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James Gunn getting his panties in a bunch over it now. He was speaking on some podcast about it and said this:



I'm not saying that Scorsese is above marketing his own movies, but to suggest he only made those comments becuase of that is pretty absurd. He really got under the skin of these guys.
He's since commented frther:
 

OleBoiii

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I don't think that Scorsese meant that films based on comic books aren't cinema? I think what Marvel is doing goes a little beyond that. Comic book movies have existed for a very long time.
 

BusbyMalone

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He's since commented frther:
Yeah, I saw the Tweet.

Doesn't take away from the fact that what he said was ridiculous. Also, he's misrepresenting what Scorsese said. He's a bit of an arse anyway, is Gunn.
 

BusbyMalone

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I don't think that Scorsese meant that films based on comic books aren't cinema? I think what Marvel is doing goes a little beyond that. Comic book movies have existed for a very long time.
Correct. He's praised Burtons Batman before and spoken about Raimi's Spider-Man movies. He was just commenting on Marvel movies.
 

Cheimoon

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I don't think that Scorsese meant that films based on comic books aren't cinema? I think what Marvel is doing goes a little beyond that. Comic book movies have existed for a very long time.
That's semantics. Obviously Gunn means films like his.
 

OleBoiii

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That's semantics. Obviously Gunn means films like his.
It's not obvious for people who don't know the full story. There is a huge difference between "Marvel is not cinema" and "comic book movies are not cinema". Out of context, I kind of agree with the first one(while still finding it a bit harsh). The second one makes Scorsese sound very ignorant.

I'm usually chill about these things, but it's not like James Gunn is being misquoted by the media here. He(or whoever controls his Twitter) can frame Scorsese's quote any way they want. And they still chose to misrepresent him.
 

sullydnl

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That "sequels in name but remakes in spirit" criticism is very accurate.
 

dumbo

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James Gunn is Marvel's Ronald McDonald. That James and Zach have become household names and desirable directors in the eyes of movie goers is symptomatic of the decay of Cinema. His words on Scorsese and Marvel make Scorsese's argument better than Scorsese's original comments. Gunn is an idiot so maybe he doesn't get the point, but he's also a cynical, half-talented corporate slob director, so maybe it's just crafty marketing, knowing that his fans - who have shown an incapacity to grasp the nuance of the argument - will eat it up.

Because Gunn and the like have already won, regardless of any detractors. Audiences have chosen Shit Culture, and any argument from Aesthetics, or any lecture from a film custodian, must be consigned to lamentation. The Machine continues to gobble up any and all instances of quality and integrity to crap out as manure for their soulless produce.

All is lost. Stop crying, you won.
 

Inigo Montoya

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James Gunn is Marvel's Ronald McDonald. That James and Zach have become household names and desirable directors in the eyes of movie goers is symptomatic of the decay of Cinema. His words on Scorsese and Marvel make Scorsese's argument better than Scorsese's original comments. Gunn is an idiot so maybe he doesn't get the point, but he's also a cynical, half-talented corporate slob director, so maybe it's just crafty marketing, knowing that his fans - who have shown an incapacity to grasp the nuance of the argument - will eat it up.

Because Gunn and the like have already won, regardless of any detractors. Audiences have chosen Shit Culture, and any argument from Aesthetics, or any lecture from a film custodian, must be consigned to lamentation. The Machine continues to gobble up any and all instances of quality and integrity to crap out as manure for their soulless produce.

All is lost. Stop crying, you won.
Great post
 

dumbo

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This image of a senile Scorsese stumbling over his argument is all a part of the game to these peddlers of Shit Culture, who will happily trample over anything to gain a tiddly marketing edge. Scorsese knows Cinema better than any of us and he knows his argument. His words should have been heeded. But of course they weren't, as the philistine horde gleefully marched us all into the corporate thresher.
 

hungrywing

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Yeah was looking at it on my phone, just noticed the long line of Disney for the last decade. Their monopoly on the industry and of so many American cultural icons looks a pretty big problem, especially in this time where franchises are so significant.
I'm being a bit pedantic with his list i think - if he put up the list for the 70's or the 60's i feel like they'd be drastically stronger and a time when hollywood was genuinely great. Looking at the 80's and seeing Star Wars, Indiana Jones, a Spielberg film and a cop buddy film which were bloody everywhere at the time just feels meh. I'm not nostalgic for that time, Marvel and so on just feel a natural extension of that. Didn't they make like 5 Beverly Hills Cops or something crazy?
Overall I'm not especially interested or knowledgeable about the finance side of the movie industry and dont think its relevant to a discussion on cinema as art (disney's monopoly probably is, i haven't really thought about that). Pretty much everything on each list would be a stretch to call art imo.
Them two things - finance side and "current state of the movie game" - is keenly related.

Long story short, the current state of things is due mainly to three things (in no particular order): 1. Final removal of original studio heads' influence*, 2. "wall-street" financing of movies (see below quoted post with comments regarding 'market-researched, audience-tested, vetted, modified, revetted and remodified'), 3. the streaming/digital era causing havoc in the ancillary rights (DVD, TV broadcast licensing) markets - which effectively killed the mid-range picture - and the rise of widespread gaming taking over the "eyeball time" of the youth.

*a long, long time ago and up until about the year 2000, the major studos tried to out-Oscar each other each year, bankrolling their 'Awards season' pics with twelve to sixteen 'commercial' projects. The studio heads were often at the very least moderately creatively competent, being veterans of vaudeville/amusements/entertainment etc. These guys and gals' direct influence lasted until around the 60s. Then their successors had some time until the 80s. During the 90s, wall street finance started taking over and having more and more influence over the 'creative' process.



That "sequels in name but remakes in spirit" criticism is very accurate.
James Gunn is Marvel's Ronald McDonald. That James and Zach have become household names and desirable directors in the eyes of movie goers is symptomatic of the decay of Cinema. His words on Scorsese and Marvel make Scorsese's argument better than Scorsese's original comments. Gunn is an idiot so maybe he doesn't get the point, but he's also a cynical, half-talented corporate slob director, so maybe it's just crafty marketing, knowing that his fans - who have shown an incapacity to grasp the nuance of the argument - will eat it up.

Because Gunn and the like have already won, regardless of any detractors. Audiences have chosen Shit Culture, and any argument from Aesthetics, or any lecture from a film custodian, must be consigned to lamentation. The Machine continues to gobble up any and all instances of quality and integrity to crap out as manure for their soulless produce.

All is lost. Stop crying, you won.
He's actually pretty talented, which is part of the problem not just in film or art, but in larger society as well: the previously locally-isolated sort of penultimate strata of intelligence finding widespread support; a side effect of exploding population and interconnectivity allowing for channels of positive reinforcement that such never really had before. The tragic downside is that this means the people much smarter than said stratum get crowded out.

It's like a doctor who's used to being called smart and having their ass kissed by 90% of the population unable to realize or accept that he or she is way out of his/her depth if a Von Neumann-level intellect comes along. And it's not the doctor's fault. He/she is literally simply 'too stupid' to understand what the other person is saying.

So in a sad way, it's not Gunn's fault.
 

tinfish

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I really hate the era of cinema we live in.

I just finished watching some great films on Netflix, and nowadays we have nothing of the sort/quality regularly being released in cinema.

For the past month I managed to watch:
Schindlers list
American Psycho
Sleepers
Cape Fear
Prisoners
Falling Down
The last Samurai

And probably a few more I can't remember.

It's just not the same anymore. It's all about mass appeal and selling merchandise these days. Films that actually try to be a film are few and far between these days.

Maybe I wrote my message incorrectly, but I hope people here know what I mean.
 

VorZakone

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I really hate the era of cinema we live in.

I just finished watching some great films on Netflix, and nowadays we have nothing of the sort/quality regularly being released in cinema.

For the past month I managed to watch:
Schindlers list
American Psycho
Sleepers
Cape Fear
Prisoners
Falling Down
The last Samurai

And probably a few more I can't remember.

It's just not the same anymore. It's all about mass appeal and selling merchandise these days. Films that actually try to be a film are few and far between these days.

Maybe I wrote my message incorrectly, but I hope people here know what I mean.
I know exactly what you mean. 9 out of 10 times I just find myself rewatching older movies.
 

Oldyella

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I really hate the era of cinema we live in.

I just finished watching some great films on Netflix, and nowadays we have nothing of the sort/quality regularly being released in cinema.

For the past month I managed to watch:
Schindlers list
American Psycho
Sleepers
Cape Fear
Prisoners
Falling Down
The last Samurai

And probably a few more I can't remember.

It's just not the same anymore. It's all about mass appeal and selling merchandise these days. Films that actually try to be a film are few and far between these days.

Maybe I wrote my message incorrectly, but I hope people here know what I mean.
I get what you are saying, but you have picked some fantastic movies over a broad period of time there. Last couple of years we have had some great films too, I'm sure in 10 years time people will be looking back and adding more from this period to a long list of greats.
 

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I simply can't understand why people so, I can only assume, wilfully misinterpret Scorsese's comments as some sort of cultural elitism.

The same company dominates cinema, in an entirely unprecedented manner, making identikit cut and paste movies (some of which are decent) crushing all meaningful competition with a homogenous and controlled aesthetic to such an extent that mainstream cinema is unrecognisable and he's a reactionary "old man (shouting) at clouds"?

It is not elitist to appreciate creativity and diversity.
 

LoneStar

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I'm honestly tired of the superhero movies and tv shows that are popping up everywhere. Feels like almost 1 in 2 big production movies and shows are some form of superhero stuff. And 90% of them follow the same formula and arc. The analogy of serious literature vs comics is spot on.

As long as people watch it, these companies will keep churning them out like it's going out of sale. The silver lining is that it's forcing me to read books instead of watching the latest shows on Netflix.
 

lsd

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It's amazing that Scorcese said this ages ago and fans of these "things" are still getting up in arms about it today.

That's how you know he touched a nerve and told the truth
 

BusbyMalone

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It's amazing that Scorcese said this ages ago and fans of these "things" are still getting up in arms about it today.

That's how you know he touched a nerve and told the truth
He really did get under their skin. The thing is, most of them only seen snippets of what he said and didn't even bother to engage with it on an intellectual level. And I doubt very much that they read his NYT article on the subject, because if they did, they wouldn't come out with shit like James Gunn did. Implying that he was doing it merely as a cynical tactic for marketing his own movie. It's Scorses for feck sake, he doesn't have to drum up attention for his movie by creating some fake outrage. If you ever heard the man speak about movies he's always honest and passionate about them.

And this coming from James-fecking-Gunn. The only reason people know of him is because his movies have the Marvel label slapped on the front of them.
 

OleBoiii

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I can't believe that Scorsese wants to put all Marvel fans in concentration camps! He also thinks that there should be no more holidays and that doggystyle should be outlawed.
 

lsd

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He really did get under their skin. The thing is, most of them only seen snippets of what he said and didn't even bother to engage with it on an intellectual level. And I doubt very much that they read his NYT article on the subject, because if they did, they wouldn't come out with shit like James Gunn did. Implying that he was doing it merely as a cynical tactic for marketing his own movie. It's Scorses for feck sake, he doesn't have to drum up attention for his movie by creating some fake outrage. If you ever heard the man speak about movies he's always honest and passionate about them.

And this coming from James-fecking-Gunn. The only reason people know of him is because his movies have the Marvel label slapped on the front of them.

I don't even know who James Gunn is and highly doubt he will be remembered as one of the greatest directors and visionarys of our time
 

Shane88

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Reddit seems to think it's deliberate and creative genius. "Chaos and mischief" puke.

I think it's evidence of carbon copy shite, having rigid formulae to stick to and feck all ideas.
 

VorZakone

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Reddit seems to think it's deliberate and creative genius. "Chaos and mischief" puke.

I think it's evidence of carbon copy shite, having rigid formulae to stick to and feck all ideas.
The subreddit r/movies is the absolute worst at overhyping mediocre crap.
 

Sweet Square

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Reddit seems to think it's deliberate and creative genius. "Chaos and mischief" puke.

I think it's evidence of carbon copy shite, having rigid formulae to stick to and feck all ideas.
For some reason this reminds me of the monster energy drink lady