Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

Vidyoyo

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I don't want to put words in @caid's mouth here, but personally I think you and (s)he are talking about the same thing, just from different angles. That dude/dudette is definitely going to agree with you that they aren't "made simply for the joy of cinema." Scorsese really has a leg to stand on here. They'll once in a while use certain cinematic idioms to present information or emotion, but very sparsely. I'd love for a serious film-scholar to technically break down how many different techniques they use on average, for example.

Also, that hypertext theory thing with Disney/Marvel's serialized (read, comic book episodic) approach is master's thesis material, IMO (depending on how much one can flesh it out).
Very true. It started as me disagreeing and then I noticed similarities between what me and @caid were saying. Just different angles as you say :)

Somebody else can have the master's thesis though as I need to go to sleep.
 
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caid

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It didn't. I ultimately read it as a comment directed at Scorsese.

I agree with you a great deal. The commercial film has largely been 'solved' - to borrow a term from the AI field - in a great part due to the factory-farm methods of bank-driven modern Hollywood that Scorsese is decrying (sorry). This lady has a theory that there are roughly three types of creativity which then mix: exploratory, combination, and transformational. Hollywood's been running on the second type for quite a while and it's been kicked into absolutely st00pid territory since around the time mentioned earlier (2005-ish)

Also, in case you didn't know, the film is often likened to a poem and TV to prose. This has been a huge factor in the rise of TV/streaming shows and the mass exodus of writing talent away from film and towards the more long form of serialized shows, particularly because of the amount of creative control they retain in the latter and the lack of 'space constraints' that really hamper a writer in the former. That (along with the big-screen home system you pointed out) has also been a factor in the slow strangulation of commercial film - literally all the top talent ain't that keen on writing movies anymore.

I really like that meta-analysis of JP.

P.S. I'm pretty sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but the real top writers do try quite hard to add some layers on top of 'the skin'. Silence of the Lambs is the descent of two women - one victim and one agent (in the non-vernacular usages of the terms) - into the hell of a world designed for and controlled by men. JP (the film) is the idea of "family" faced with the age of genetic manipulation (the book is about a favorite Crichton theme: the illusion of forethought in the technology sector). Mad Max: Fury Road wasn't nominated for an Oscar for no reason, even if the reason is tres meh: it's a road movie with the dad and mom switched and that new family dynamic ultimately overthrowing the old patriarchy.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there are/have been people who are aware of the problem and who are doing/did their best to try and keep things churning, even if like you point out it really doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
I think theres often interesting meta stories within the braindead hollywood blockbuster but i find its quite common that alot of that meta story is outside the film whether its a book adaptation or a spin off kids show that just throws a weird cool idea into the mix. I think if you take the 2 hour experience in isolation its, well its shallow (im back to that word). They'll hint at or reference something farther reaching than the minute to minute action but its just discarded in the next scene for a funny joke or a silly jump scare. Spielberg or Scorcese will drag it from one scene to the next because they've proven themselves before the formula became king and no one has the balls to tell them otherwise.
I think the short 2 hour poem style of film, like the Green Knight which i think was excellent, have very little need of hollywood budgets. I mean i think you can go back to the seventh seal in 1957 and i dont know what the budget for that would be today but im guessing nothing. You had that dogville phase which i think did a good job of illustrating that you dont need 1:1 perfect realism so much as an element of consistency to tell these stories.
And i think genre films are kind of chugging along with sci fi and horror having a good run at the moment which isn't to the taste of everyone but i just presume thrillers and r-rated action movies or war movies or whatever will come back around in time. And i quite enjoy the braindead hollywood blockbuster for what it is.
I kind of feel cinema as an artform is in good health. I think they should be pushing to find some revenue stream to replace dvd's or doing a better job of negotiating with streaming services and thats a challenge ahead for its future health but that feels like a completely different conversation to what Scorcese is looking for, which no longer exists and has no realistic chance of returning to the hollywood machine. Scorcese, Ridley Scott, Tarantino and a couple of others will keep bouncing along keeping the dream alive for a time but those who follow them will be proving themselves and doing their best work away from hollywood. Those who love cinema will have to look elsewhere too.
 

caid

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Very true. It started as me disagreeing and then I noticed similarities between what me and @caid were saying. Just different angles as you say :)

Somebody else can have the master's thesis as I need to go to sleep.
I'd say im less critical of Marvel. They do feel like something else, something quite cynical in a thousand ways. I enjoyed their comics as a kid and I'm probably easy enough to sell on cheap sentimentality and pretty explosions. Their probably closer to comfort food than Cinema so maybe i agree with you.
 

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They pumped Kumail with so many steroids that he ended looking like big head Ken Griffey Jr and yet he still has to wear a awful suit and can't talk.
 

Sweet Square

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Tbh this is why they make Marvel movies.

 

Idxomer

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Getting Chloe Zhao to direct this film after making The Rider and Nomadland is depressing.

Marvel movies are inherently evil.
 

Sweet Square

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What the hell? :lol:

Do they also put tall dummies with afros on the seat in front of you if it's available?
I remember watching Blade Runner 2049 where both the sound was broken to the point where every 10 minutes the dialogue would cut out and the lights were on full blast for the 2+ hours.
 

B20

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There is some fantastic material in the comics for Eternals that would probably be perfect to drop straight into the current cm universe as is.

This looks like it's going to be dreadful though.
 

Sweet Square

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Also I hate this new trend in big budget films of making everything as dark as possible so you can't tell what is happening.

 

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Also I hate this new trend in big budget films of making everything as dark as possible so you can't tell what is happening.

It's dark so they can half-arse the CGI so you can't tell how wank it is.

Also, what the feck is with that "Watch out!" part. Why doesn't her face move?!
 

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I feel this thread has just become an echo chamber where people who don't like superhero laugh at anything they see. Maybe rename it to 'let's all laugh at superhero movies'.

Fun at what parties? Should I be worried if I'm not invited to any?
 
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SalfordRed18

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I feel this thread has just become an echo chamber where sweet square who doesnt like superhero laugh at anything they see. Maybe rename it to 'let's all laugh at superhero movies'.

Fun at what parties? Should I be worried if I'm not invited to any?
Fixed.
 

Sweet Square

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It's dark so they can half-arse the CGI so you can't tell how wank it is.

Also, what the feck is with that "Watch out!" part. Why doesn't her face move?!
Yep good point. CGI seems to have been at the same level since Avatar.


I feel this thread has just become an echo chamber where people who don't like superhero laugh at anything they see. Maybe rename it to 'let's all laugh at superhero movies'.
Always has been
 

OleBoiii

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I feel this thread has just become an echo chamber where people who don't like superhero laugh at anything they see. Maybe rename it to 'let's all laugh at superhero movies'.
Meh, I enjoy it. It's not all homeruns, but there's definitely some funny/cringy stuff getting posted. Credit to @Sweet Square for that :lol:

 

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Meh, I enjoy it. It's not all homeruns, but there's definitely some funny/cringy stuff getting posted. Credit to @Sweet Square for that :lol:

I don't really mind, it's just a bit lame compared to some of the discussion that has been had. And anyway, those posts did help me find out about Free Guy! (Thanks again @berbatrick - and I'll stop bringing that up now, cause it probably isn't as funny as I think it is. :D )
 

berbatrick

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I don't really mind, it's just a bit lame compared to some of the discussion that has been had. And anyway, those posts did help me find out about Free Guy! (Thanks again @berbatrick - and I'll stop bringing that up now, cause it probably isn't as funny as I think it is. :D )
as penance for helping kill cinema i will go watch dune a lot :lol:
 

Shane88

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''A man who,beyond the age of 26, finds himself watching a marvel film can count himself as a failure.''
The lasers will go pew, the baddies will go smash and the heroes will do a Marvel zinger every 90 seconds.

It's junk food, visual pizza and that's fine.

"Complex thoughts" Fecking spare me.
 

Wibble

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Superhero films are movies in the same way that dinner at The Fat Duck and McDonalds are both food. Occasionally you might feel like McDonalds but superhero films are like being force fed McDonalds 24/7.

Since watching The Avengers in 2012 I have avoided superhero films entirely and I only watched that because someone I knew in the 80's was the cinematographer.

What is depressing is that a great sci-fi film like Blade Runner 2049 hasn't broken even yet while superhero popcorn rakes in huge sums so keeps getting remade.

Edit: Not true - I watched the Guardians of The Guardians of the Galaxy and Deadpool films. In both cases the first film was worth watching but the second wasn't.
 
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caid

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Superhero films are movies in the same way that dinner at The Fat Duck and McDonalds are both food. Occasionally you might feel like McDonalds but superhero films are like being force fed McDonalds 24/7.

Since watching The Avengers in 2012 I have avoided superhero films entirely and I only watched that because someone I knew in the 80's was the cinematographer.

What is depressing is that a great sci-fi film like Blade Runner 2049 hasn't broken even yet while superhero popcorn rakes in huge sums so keeps getting remade.

Edit: Not true - I watched the Guardians of The Guardians of the Galaxy and Deadpool films. In both cases the first film was worth watching but the second wasn't.
I was reading that John Carpenters The Thing bombed back in the 80's along with most of his other movies recently and was kind of shocked. I think sci fi films (along with a lot of other genres) never do well commercially. Dont think the original Blade Runner did well initially either did it?
Maybe its certain kinds of sci fi films? Interstellar had a good take i think? I can imagine that Bruce Willis / Aerosmith shite that got released in the 00's doing well.
 

Wibble

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I was reading that John Carpenters The Thing bombed back in the 80's along with most of his other movies recently and was kind of shocked. I think sci fi films (along with a lot of other genres) never do well commercially. Dont think the original Blade Runner did well initially either did it?

Maybe its certain kinds of sci fi films? Interstellar had a good take i think? I can imagine that Bruce Willis / Aerosmith shite that got released in the 00's doing well.
Interstellar was terrible so it makes sense that it did well I guess.

The Thing and the original Blade Runner were two of my favourite films of the 80's and luck enough to see both in first release in the cinema.
 

Charlie Foley

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Interstellar was terrible so it makes sense that it did well I guess.

The Thing and the original Blade Runner were two of my favourite films of the 80's and luck enough to see both in first release in the cinema.
I can’t imagine what it was like seeing The Thing in cinema. What an incredible movie. I fast forward through the kennel scene though, I can’t stomach it :(
 

Wibble

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Kurt Russell has been in some crap but he’s also played the greatest protagonist ever in my opinion.
He was great in that. It is one of my son's favourite films as well funnily enough. I remember getting in trouble with my wife when I let him watch that when probably a bit too young.
 

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Superhero films are movies in the same way that dinner at The Fat Duck and McDonalds are both food. Occasionally you might feel like McDonalds but superhero films are like being force fed McDonalds 24/7.

Since watching The Avengers in 2012 I have avoided superhero films entirely and I only watched that because someone I knew in the 80's was the cinematographer.

What is depressing is that a great sci-fi film like Blade Runner 2049 hasn't broken even yet while superhero popcorn rakes in huge sums so keeps getting remade.

Edit: Not true - I watched the Guardians of The Guardians of the Galaxy and Deadpool films. In both cases the first film was worth watching but the second wasn't.
Apparently the toy money for Marvel and such dwarfs the film money. So even if they lose money they win.
 

Sweet Square

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The lasers will go pew, the baddies will go smash and the heroes will do a Marvel zinger every 90 seconds.

It's junk food, visual pizza and that's fine.

"Complex thoughts" Fecking spare me.
I didn't want to post it in here as some might see it as bullying but this guy also put out an article about how as a grown adult he was too fat to sit on the rides at some Harry Potter theme park.

Big OLED are pulling the strings.

In all seriousness, OLED is a fecking gamechanger for dark scenes.
Cheers. Makes a bit more sense now.
 

hungrywing

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I was reading that John Carpenters The Thing bombed back in the 80's along with most of his other movies recently and was kind of shocked. I think sci fi films (along with a lot of other genres) never do well commercially. Dont think the original Blade Runner did well initially either did it?
Maybe its certain kinds of sci fi films? Interstellar had a good take i think? I can imagine that Bruce Willis / Aerosmith shite that got released in the 00's doing well.
In general, yes. As it happened, "Genre film" (including sci-fi)* was never intended to make serious money. They were made kind of 'in the tradition of cheap entertainment for the vulgar' with an attitude of "If you produce one that manages to break out of its niche a little bit ('breakout hit', and later on, 'crossover appeal'), then terrific, but if not, no big deal." And they were made to cater to what was seen as a built-in audience for each and one never really thought about expanding beyond said niche. But those markets started to sloooowly but very steadily dwindle from around the early 70s on.

So later on, you got more and more experiments in combining them (action + sci-fi + disaster = Bruce Willis Aerosmith), bigger budgets so they 'looked better'/'appealed more to women' (Alien), etc.

*depending on whom you ask: sci-fi, romcoms, horror, mystery, musicals, and believe it or not, action.

EDIT: The Thing was one of those 'bigger budget' experiments as well, probably given that money in the wake of Alien's success.
 
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