Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

[HTG]

Marvel films do explore ideas though. Just like Star Wars does, Marvel has a central theme of good vs evil. They captivate, they make people identify with the characters. I mean Goodfellas shows the innerworking of the criminal underworld, thats as far removed from normal life as say an alien invasion. People were cheering Capt America on, they were moved to tears when Iron Man sacrifices himself, they clearly identified with the fantastic storylines. I think Scorcese does a disservice to people when he starts to dictate what their imagination should be limited to.

He's not dictating anything. What makes you think that?
And honestly, Captain America is a terrible character and the whole ideology surrounding him is incredibly racist and nationalist. The idea that the American answer to the idea of a German master race is something to sheer on, is just wrong and incredibly sad.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Marvel films do explore ideas though. Just like Star Wars does, Marvel has a central theme of good vs evil. They captivate, they make people identify with the characters. I mean Goodfellas shows the innerworking of the criminal underworld, thats as far removed from normal life as say an alien invasion. People were cheering Capt America on, they were moved to tears when Iron Man sacrifices himself, they clearly identified with the fantastic storylines. I think Scorcese does a disservice to people when he starts to dictate what their imagination should be limited to.

I accept that but I think it's relative. If you look at Scorsese's favourite films for instance, I think it becomes obvious why Marvel films don't match what he values in cinema.

http://www.openculture.com/2013/07/martin-scorsese-reveals-his-10-favorite-movies.html

First thing that stands out to me is that those movies are all about humans and events surrounding them. I've always found this a huge weakness in Marvel films because they operate on a logic where you don't think you're watching events happening to real people. In fact, I'd argue most people are enraptured by a completely opposite idea - liking the tribulations of the super person (literally portrayed as a superhero). It's a bit like people's fascination with celebrities. People, after all, are fascinated by power and things way bigger than themselves.

Then you get to the idea that those films he loves do indeed deal with moral issues in a much more complex way than your everyday superhero flick. I don't think it's particularly controversial to say they tend to push those issues to a secondary level in favour of the spectacular thrill ride aspect - usually demonstrated through action, fights, impossibly beautiful people and the like.

Basically, I think if Scorsese is doing a disservice, it's probably not being able to relate to people who like that sort of thing (which does happen, no argument from me about that).

Edit: I'd also argue that you're right in likening the gangster genre to people's love of superhero films insofar as being attracted to the power figure. Crucially though for me, the best gangster films don't totally remove themselves from being about humans in the way many superhero (Marvel) films do. A film like Goodfellas (and also The Godfather) talks about dissolution of marriage because of Henry's power-mad nature. It's a relatable thing for many, despite obviously being completely fabricated for the sake of entertainment.

Edit edit: hopefully I don't sound like a massive knob here. I do personally agree with Scorsese so accept a bit of confirmation bias is likely coming through.

 

[Casanova85]

Marvel films do explore ideas though. Just like Star Wars does, Marvel has a central theme of good vs evil. They captivate, they make people identify with the characters. I mean Goodfellas shows the innerworking of the criminal underworld, thats as far removed from normal life as say an alien invasion. People were cheering Capt America on, they were moved to tears when Iron Man sacrifices himself, they clearly identified with the fantastic storylines. I think Scorcese does a disservice to people when he starts to dictate what their imagination should be limited to.

Great post. It makes the line "It (Marvel) isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being" all the more stupid.

 

[Eboue]

they were moved to tears when Iron Man sacrifices himself

sounds like a bunch of feckin losers

 

[Rooney in Paris]

And I have no idea why the box office of those movies bears any relevance.

Nor do I but that poster seems to be in love with box office returns.

 

[Spoony]

sounds like a bunch of feckin losers

You don't have any empathy.

I mean... it was Iron Man!

 

[Avatar]

When money enters from the door, values (art,ethics,..etc.) go out of the window.

let me add: Techno Music is not Music another money-making machine
...and dare I say: Pop music (to a good extent) isn't either

here's Bill Maher's take of superhero movies early this year:

 

[sullydnl]

Christ I hate Bill Maher.

 

[Halftrack]

To be honest, I think this whole debate boils down to people being incredibly insecure about any kind of criticism towards the art they like, because they are afraid to be perceived as dumb, thus they lash out.

Or it could just be that some people find it annoying when some pompous asshole takes it upon themselves to decide what does or doesn't hold merit.

You've also done a great job of illustrating how a snob acts towards those with different tastes, so thank you for that.

People keep using the word 'snob' and I'm a bit confused about why it's taken as bad by default. It's basically saying people have higher standards, which is fair enough.

The only bad snobs tend to be the delusional ones, not the ones who have genuinely interesting ideas that they put into practice.

A snob is, by definition, someone who view their own tastes as superior to those of others, particularly those that differ from theirs. It's not saying that people have higher standards, it's saying that people believe themselves to have higher standards, and that this somehow makes them better.

And any snob is a bad snob, because they invariably act like they're superior to you because of their perceived higher standards, as exemplified by several posters in this very thread.

 

[DixieDean]

Can't say if I agree with him or not until I find out his opinion on Star Wars movies.

 

[Vidyoyo]

A snob is, by definition, someone who view their own tastes as superior to those of others, particularly those that differ from theirs. It's not saying that people have higher standards, it's saying that people believe themselves to have higher standards, and that this somehow makes them better.

And any snob is a bad snob, because they invariably act like they're superior to you because of their perceived higher standards, as exemplified by several posters in this very thread.

Actually that's fair enough, I was wrong here by misunderstanding the term.

 

[stevoc]

I find it odd the dislike the mere mention of superhero movies seems to generate among some. I can almost hear the teeth gnashing from here.

At the end of the day they're not meant to be high art, they're just fun entertainment primarily aimed towards children and families. Theres no need to take them so seriously, in fact you could expand that sentiment to every movie.

 

[JPRouve]

When money enters from the door, values (art,ethics,..etc.) go out of the window.

let me add: Techno Music is not Music another money-making machine
...and dare I say: Pop music (to a good extent) isn't either

here's Bill Maher's take of superhero movies early this year:

The only issue is that he assumed that it was the husband that was playing fortnite.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Cinema in general is shit nowadays...

 

[Chairman Steve]

It's no real surprise Scorsese doesn't like these types of movies really. I will say the film market is getting over-saturated with them though, but there will come a point where a burnout does occur. This Marvel ones done well to keep it going. They make too much damn money to just stop and rest it for a couple of years like they probably should do.

 

[sullydnl]

I find it odd the dislike the mere mention of superhero movies seems to generate among some. I can almost hear the teeth gnashing from here.

At the end of the day they're not meant to be high art, they're just fun entertainment primarily aimed towards children and families. Theres no need to take them so seriously, in fact you could expand that sentiment to every movie.

I think it's simply a result of oversaturation. The superhero genre has now dominated mainstream cinema to such an extent and for so long that it is bound to attract a substantial degree of irritation and ire. As with Ed Sheeran and Starbucks, people would have less of an issue with a percieved lack of quality if they weren't also so ubiquitous as to be near inescapable. All three can also be used to question the actual mechanics of the industries supporting them too. Such is the price of stratospheric success.

 

[Bilbo]

He's right, and he's wrong too. The theme park comparison is bang on, but everyone likes a theme park every now and again.

As long as talented film-makers are still finding a platform and/or funding to keep making original and good quality cinema then it's okay by me, though it wouldn't surprise me if the current obsession with the superhero genre is negatively effecting this.

 

[Tarrou]

Marvel films do explore ideas though. Just like Star Wars does, Marvel has a central theme of good vs evil. They captivate, they make people identify with the characters. I mean Goodfellas shows the innerworking of the criminal underworld, thats as far removed from normal life as say an alien invasion. People were cheering Capt America on, they were moved to tears when Iron Man sacrifices himself, they clearly identified with the fantastic storylines. I think Scorcese does a disservice to people when he starts to dictate what their imagination should be limited to.

he hasn't dictated anything to anyone

he's just an old man who thinks superhero movies are shit

 

[amolbhatia50k]

sounds like a bunch of feckin losers

 

[AkaAkuma]

https://mubi.com/lists/martin-scorseses-favorite-films - a full list of his apparent favourite films. Most of which were filmed over 60 years ago. I'd question if he actually likes modern Cinema, as there arent really many within the last 30 years on his list.

 

[Spoony]

https://mubi.com/lists/martin-scorseses-favorite-films - a full list of his apparent favourite films. Most of which were filmed over 60 years ago. I'd question if he actually likes modern Cinema, as there arent really many within the last 30 years on his list.

Nah this is his top ten:

• 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) – Stanley Kubrick
• 8½ (1963) – Federico Fellini
• Ashes and Diamonds (1958) – Andrzej Wajda
• Citizen Kane (1941) – Orson Welles
• The Leopard (1963) – Luchino Visconti
• Paisan (1946) – Roberto Rossellini
• The Red Shoes (1948) – Michael Powell/Emeric Pressburger
• The River (1951) – Jean Renoir
• Salvatore Giuliano (1962) – Francesco Rosi
• The Searchers (1956) – John Ford
• Ugetsu Monogatari (1953) – Mizoguchi Kenji
• Vertigo (1958) – Alfred Hitchcock

 

[Ish]

sounds like a bunch of feckin losers

 

[Cheesy]

Marvel films do explore ideas though. Just like Star Wars does, Marvel has a central theme of good vs evil. They captivate, they make people identify with the characters. I mean Goodfellas shows the innerworking of the criminal underworld, thats as far removed from normal life as say an alien invasion. People were cheering Capt America on, they were moved to tears when Iron Man sacrifices himself, they clearly identified with the fantastic storylines. I think Scorcese does a disservice to people when he starts to dictate what their imagination should be limited to.

But does of this really have any ideological heft? Having a central theme in itself is easy. Any of us could come up with a central theme or idea or even basic storyline for a Marvel movie quite quickly. Actually executing that storyline in a way that's highly original, interesting or unique, or in a way that actually has something to say, is an entirely different matter.

The latest Avengers film wasn't really the product of a director's wider vision - had the directors not done what the studio wanted them to they'd have probably been sacked for new ones to come in, because the primary purpose of most Marvel films isn't to necessarily say something but to be marketable and entertaining in a way that's fairly accessible and easy to watch for a wide family audience. Had the directors who made it not been around, someone else would've done it instead. The product, while perhaps slightly different in places, would've largely been the same.

Goodfellas is, I'd argue, something that's much more closely related to normal life than your average Marvel film. The idea of being a nobody in life and having no real choices but using crime as a way to advance yourself is probably relevant to a lot of people in poorer areas who've had struggles with the law. It takes a look at corruption and how this works on a minute level. It looks at the power structures of the Italian mafia, and when characters overstep the boundaries of these structures or feck with them there are consequences. It takes a look at the psychological impact of drug use and domestic abuse. I'd say these things hit home a lot closer to people than an entire city being destroyed on a whim and then being fine the next day.

It's sort of a difficult one to fully pin down...because even films that do say something are simultaneously trying to make money, and Scorsese certainly will want his films to do well...because most people like having money, and that money then justifies whatever film project he's got going on next. Indeed, part of the reason Scorsese's done well is because he's combined being a genuinely talented director with films that are often incredibly stimulating and enjoyable in a way that's viable commercially. He knows how to use big actors and knows how to exploit their star appeal.

But while the Avengers, or any of the other Marvel films are movies that are made, are going to be made anyway, Scorsese's films are undoubtedly Scorsese films. They aren't perfect, and some of them aren't necessarily even that good, but he's got a recognisable directorial style that shines through in pretty much all of his movies, and he's generally trying to say something or show something in those films, even if they're not perfect, and even if the point isn't always that interesting.

I'm not sure the same can be said for Marvel movies. Iron Man sacrificing himself may seem dramatic now...but will it mean anything when some major Hollywood actor is inevitably cast as him again in five years?

 

[stevoc]

I think it's simply a result of oversaturation. The superhero genre has now dominated mainstream cinema to such an extent and for so long that it is bound to attract a substantial degree of irritation and ire. As with Ed Sheeran and Starbucks, people would have less of an issue with a percieved lack of quality if they weren't also so ubiquitous as to be near inescapable. All three can also be used to question the actual mechanics of the industries supporting them too. Such is the price of stratospheric success.

Well i don't know if they've hit the point of oversaturation yet mate, i imagine they'll only reach that point when the box office returns on these movies start to dwindle. From what i can see the opposite is happening the last few years.

I'm also not convinced they're inescapable either, i'd only seen one or two of the Marvel movies before our kids got into them around 2015. Before that i managed to avoid them by just not watching them, they didn't bother me.

 

[The Boy]

Popular doesn't = good.

True for all sorts of things, like superhero films, McDonalds and United!

 

[Prometheus]

True for all sorts of things, like superhero films, McDonalds and United!

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

On a technical level they are good. Popular in the entertainment industry means good.

No it doesn't. Thats a ridiculous statement and in your words "stupid logic"

What stupid logic is it that you are trying to force upon me?
No, but despite his haters there is no question that Bieber for example is a popular and good musician, even if he certainly isn't to taste for a lot of us.


Only one who is fair among you 3.

Your post definitely aint "fair"

 

[Red Star One]

These movies are cinema, they have entertainment value and are loved around the world even if they're extremely shallow, naive and repetitive. We've seen popular music like that, we've seen popular books like that, nothing new. I fully get and support his point in not calling them art or masterpiece (although for some masterpiece of the genre could work), in thirty years no one will direct movies with refences to that Captain America scene and they will be largely forgotten (apart from the fact they'll be noted as sucessful movies) - so yeah, they're part of cinema history, there's no denying, but they were designed as money machines with no other objective but break the box offices and there's not much more to them.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

These movies are cinema, they have entertainment value and are loved around the world even if they're extremely shallow, naive and repetitive. We've seen popular music like that, we've seen popular books like that, nothing new. I fully get and support his point in not calling them art or masterpiece (although for some masterpiece of the genre could work), in thirty years no one will direct movies with refences to that Captain America scene and they will be largely forgotten (apart from the fact they'll be noted as sucessful movies) - so yeah, they're part of cinema history, there's no denying, but they were designed as money machines with no other objective but break the box offices and there's not much more to them.

Marvel are nowhere near "masterpieces of the genre" though. That would be things like Watchmen, Planetary and Miracleman that shit all over Marvel from a great height

 

[B20]

The genre is utterly played out to me at this stage. It was really cool in the beginning, how they made comics come alive on screen. This approach was then kept alive by having fabulous actors carry middling plots.

Then with movies like Batman and the Winter Soldier, they showed that it is possible to make genuine quality action movies with superheroes.

Then with Guardians of the galaxy and ant man, they showed you can do comedy with superheroes.

There's been some impressive moves made to keep the genre alive, but we're at the end of it now.

I'm amazed that the ensemble movies have been so highly rated. I just saw endgame. I liked the heist part. Everything else was just awful. What these actors are given to work with is George Lucas, episodes 1-3, standard. The mass battles are pure cringe. The only good one they've made was in civil war (also the only watchable ensemble movie to me).

I say this as a huge comics fan who for the most part has really enjoyed the ride of it all being translated to the big screen.

Plays like Watchmen, the umbrella academy and The Boys, who have an actual story to tell and an aesthetic to go with it, are still worthwhile contributions to the genre, but the whole "here's your favourite heroes... In a new movie!" shtick has gotten very very old.

 

[The Cat]

I've enjoyed watching them but I think it all ends with Endgame. The only one I think I would like to watch would be the next Spiderman film now they've sorted that out - the last two scenes have set it up for a world of possibilities.

The next Guardians also has comic potential but bar those two there is nothing else I want to see. Certainly not Hulk after what they did with him the last two movies.

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Some one hasn't seen IW and Endgame. You couldn't get more cinematic if you tried. Never felt any emotions in any of his movies. I do Love Gangs of New York, departed, Wolf of Wall Street. But none of them got me excited, giddy, gave me a great laugh, pulled my heart strings, made me sad like superhero movies. Movies like Logan would disagree with you.

 

[Red Star One]

Marvel are nowhere near "masterpieces of the genre" though. That would be things like Watchmen, Planetary and Miracleman that shit all over Marvel from a great height

I don't know close to enough about this genre to call any of the movies masterpiece myself to be honest, only quoting some opinions I've heard from my friends. You're probably right though and I'm inclined to believe there's been much better movies in this genre than Marvel's repetitive crap.

 

[GBBQ]

Cinema is escapism. Sometimes I want to sit down and watch the rise and fall of Henry Hill, other times I want to watch a big green man get thrown about the place by a big purple man.

 

[stevoc]

Marvel are nowhere near "masterpieces of the genre" though. That would be things like Watchmen, Planetary and Miracleman that shit all over Marvel from a great height

Which movie is this?

 

[Cascarino]

I think they're pretty average, but enjoyable enough. There's a couple gems too.

Which movie is this?

I don't think it's a movie. I don't think Planetary got adapted either. I think he was talking about comics because there was a slight misunderstanding. Fantastic comics though.

 

[evil_geko]

Even though I enjoy watching Marvel movies here and there, Scorsese is right, it is all flash and no substance.

 

[sullydnl]

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Scorcese is one thing but Aniston has some nerve criticising anything after some of the crimes against cinema she's commited.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Along came Jennifer

 

[padr81]

Is the current #1 always the best music of the time?

Nope but its still music (even if its shit). Marvel is cinema even if its very basic, generic cinema churned out to a specific audience. I quite enjoy the Marvel movies for what they are so I'm probably a little biased.