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crossy1686

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Both can still be correct.
I'm not saying they're not, I'm just wondering why there's this need to talk down potentially one of the best prospects we've ever had come through the academy because someone else mentioned Martial in an earlier post
 

Adam-Utd

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I think both sides are correct in a sense.

Greenwood has a higher level than both, but he's only 18 and will still be inconsitent for a while. We need to keep calm and expect that he migh be invisible for some matches like Palace away, or he might be a match winner like Bournemouth. He will have moments of both for the next couple of years while he develops, by 21-22 he will start to become our main main.
 

Sayros

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I'm not saying they're not, I'm just wondering why there's this need to talk down potentially one of the best prospects we've ever had come through the academy because someone else mentioned Martial in an earlier post
I get it, but it's a usual response when there's a lot of (warranted) hype about a youngster because there are so many countless ways it can go wrong for even the surest of prospects, especially when they start gaining exposure. I think Greenwood is a unique talent, and the sky is the limit for him, but I also believe that Martial is special in his own right and now that he's had a season at CF behind him, he's only going to get better and will not be easily usurped at the CF spot by Greenwood or anybody.

Personally, I think Sancho is going to be a huge factor in his development, and not necessarily in a bad way. If Sancho comes, he will definitely take the starting job on the RW, and we can assume Rashford will be fully fit and get the LW (although, I do feel he is the one most at risk with Sancho's arrival), with Martial up front. That leaves the very talented Greenwood on the bench, but now he can compete for all three positions up front. There will be bound to be some injuries, not to mention he will be one of the first off the bench, and it could elevate his overall game because of his rare ambidextrous ability where he won't look out of place anywhere in the three forward spots.
 
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Massive Spanner

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I really don't see the issue with saying he's not better than a 19 year old Martial. Martial was absolutely ridiculous himself and we were all talking as if he was the world's best teenager, our best since Rooney, and a potential Ballon D'or winner, just like we're doing with Greenwood now. It's not an insult to Greenwood, if anything it's a compliment to say he's at the same level Martial was.
 

amsoUG

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Comparing him to Rashford and Martial is silly - Martial has a golden ball to show for his hype, Martial had a Ballon d'Or clause in his contract. The kid is talented but there is a lot of English media fanfare. The reaction to him reminds me of Beckam all over again with his one attribute of bending the ball. Shooting is not enough and time will tell - and that's why I like Rashford's recent effort to grow his game play.
 

Santoryo

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So all the coaching staff at United and the coaches he's had growing up through the years are wrong and you're right based on a few games you've watched him play in the PL this year?

By all accounts, they're all saying talent and ability-wise he'll go on to have a career like Rooney, and you're saying he won't be better than Martial?
Monaco believed Martial had ballon d'or potential and even put a close on it, so i don't see the point of bringing up what youth coaches think and all that. Martial is a golden ball winner and was the best talent in his group age, some of you are talking as if he was some average level talent the way some posts read.

Saying that Mason has yet to show Martial overall ability on the ball or general play isn't some ridiculous claim, it's simply a fact. Martial in his first season with us alone had shown more ability on the ball than what Greenwood has shown so far and even his stats were great(and better than Masons) for his first season in English football(30 goals/assists in his first season). Him having 3 years of his career wasted by Mourinho doesn't change that fact.

People on these very same boards were claiming they wouldn't replace Martial with anyone in the world. Seems like people forget easily.

I really don't see the issue with saying he's not better than a 19 year old Martial. Martial was absolutely ridiculous himself and we were all talking as if he was the world's best teenager, our best since Rooney, and a potential Ballon D'or winner, just like we're doing with Greenwood now. It's not an insult to Greenwood, if anything it's a compliment to say he's at the same level Martial was.
Exactly my point. People have short memories and seem like they forget things easily and get carried away by any current hypes.

Martial in his first season with us was tearing up the league and beating PL defenders at will. He was the best talent in his age group in the world and won the golden ball. People were talking about potential ballon d'or which was a close even included in his contract upon signing. Greenwood has shown better finishing which set him apart but Martial was better than current Greenwood at everything else, some people need to start remembering things beyond this season.

Dribbling, pace, technique, etc were all aspects of the game Martial had better than current Mason. I don't even see what's so controversial about that. Heck watch a video of Martial's first season and Mason's first season to compare and it'll be quite evident that Martial was the better overall player while Mason displayed better striking.
 
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Handré1990

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Monaco believed Martial had ballon d'or potential and even put a close on it, so i don't see the point of bringing up what youth coaches think and all that. Martial is a golden ball winner and was the best talent in his group age, some of you are talking as if he was some average level talent the way some posts read.

Saying that Mason has yet to show Martial overall ability on the ball or general play isn't some ridiculous claim, it's simply a fact. Martial in his first season with us alone had shown more ability on the ball than what Greenwood has shown so far and even his stats were great(and better than Masons) for his first season in English football(30 goals/assists in his first season). Him having 3 years of his career wasted by Mourinho doesn't change that fact.

People on these very same boards were claiming they wouldn't replace Martial with anyone in the world. Seems like people forget easily.


Exactly my point. People have short memories and seem like they forget things easily and get carried away by any current hypes.

Martial in his first season with us was tearing up the league and beating PL defenders at will. He was the best talent in his age group in the world and won the golden ball. People were talking about potential ballon d'or which was a close even included in his contract upon signing. Greenwood has shown better finishing which set him apart but Martial was better than current Greenwood at everything else, some people need to start remembering things beyond this season.

Dribbling, pace, technique, etc were all aspects of the game Martial had better than current Mason. I don't even see what's so controversial about that. Heck watch a video of Martial's first season and Mason's first season to compare and it'll be quite evident that Martial was the better overall player while Mason displayed better striking.
All true. Martial’s first season was great, and he had a lot more responsibility in the team than Mason. Ironically, one of the biggest criticisms of Martial after that was a tendency to drift out of games, which I’d argue Greenwood has done more. Still, Mason started the season at 17 yo, so not really crazy that we rate Martial’s first season as better than Mason’s first, everything else being equal.
 

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Some people are sounding like Gary Neville in this thread. Mason is incredibly talented and probably the most lethal and cleanest shooter of a ball I've seen in quite some times, especially for his age but in no way does that make his talent above someone like Martial who has simply a better overall game. Outside of striking the ball Mason has a way to go before being compared to a Martial in his first season with us who showed better everything else.

And for posts claiming that Mason is currently head and shoulder above Martial and Rashford and has shown technique beyond them, I can't even bother getting into that one :lol:
He has been good for an 18 year old and I understand he could do no wrong right now. Some are probably going to disagree with this, but for now, the only thing he does to an acceptable level is shooting.

He doesn't progress the ball a whole lot, and he is fairly underwhelming in the build up. He is anonymous most times, and doesn't quite get himself into games. We rely heavily on Rashford and Shaw to progress the ball from the left.

He is clearly a talent, but he hasn't shown anywhere near what I'd want from a starter. Wan-Bissaka doesn't help the matter a whole lot, but Martial and Rashford offer a lot more than he does, and I'd expect Sancho to do the same when he comes into the team.
 

acnumber9

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All true. Martial’s first season was great, and he had a lot more responsibility in the team than Mason. Ironically, one of the biggest criticisms of Martial after that was a tendency to drift out of games, which I’d argue Greenwood has done more. Still, Mason started the season at 17 yo, so not really crazy that we rate Martial’s first season as better than Mason’s first, everything else being equal.
It’s not all true though. Martial had 18 goals and 10 assists in 4400 minutes. Greenwood has 18 goals and 5 assists in 2500. Greenwood has been considerably more productive. And he’s two years younger than Martial was.
 

Handré1990

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It’s not all true though. Martial had 18 goals and 10 assists in 4400 minutes. Greenwood has 18 goals and 5 assists in 2500. Greenwood has been considerably more productive. And he’s two years younger than Martial was.
It is, and it’s not a slight on Mason. I watched both seasons. Martial dominated for us in chance creation and generally made things happen for a very blunt team, imo. Luckily for us it looks like this United team is a much better environment to develop in and grow for a young talent than was the case when Martial came.
 

acnumber9

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It is, and it’s not a slight on Mason. I watched both seasons. Martial dominated for us in chance creation and generally made things happen for a very blunt team, imo. Luckily for us it looks like this United team is a much better environment to develop in and grow for a young talent than was the case when Martial came.
It isn’t and I watched both seasons too. If you believe this forum Martial is somewhere between our lord and saviour and Gandhi. Martial is a good player who has had a very good end to the season but you’d think that he had reinvented the game the way people here go on.
 

K_Ash

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TOP 10 SPEED STARS
1. Kyle Walker (Man City) - 23.49mph
2. Adama Traore (Wolves) - 23.48mph
3. Mason Greenwood (Man United) - 23.36mph
4. Trezeguet (Aston Villa) - 23.36mph
5. Aaron Wan-Bissaka (Man United) - 23.36mph
6. Caglar Soyuncu (Leicester) - 23.33mph
7. Ainsley Maitland-Niles (Arsenal) - 23.27mph
8. Shane Long (Southampton) - 23.21mph
9. Fred (Man United) - 23.17mph
10. Phil Foden (Man City) - 23.07mph

This is one of the most shocking&exciting thing I have learned this season!!! I used to think that Mason lacked pace (that electric one)! I cannot believe thatn he is faster than Rashford?! even Martial..Marcus can appear like the fastest player in the EPL at times. Fred looks slow as well but then look at his top speed
 

Handré1990

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It isn’t and I watched both seasons too. If you believe this forum Martial is somewhere between our lord and saviour and Gandhi. Martial is a good player who has had a very good end to the season but you’d think that he had reinvented the game the way people here go on.
Hah, where did I even imply anything close to what you’re claiming? For me Martial had a better first season for us than Greenwood, Martial was a year (2?) older than what Greenwood was in his first, so it doesn’t really come as a huge shock imo. I think Greenwood will be better than both Martial and Marcus in the long run.

Pretty weird reply mate, have to say.
 

acnumber9

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Hah, where did I even imply anything close to what you’re claiming? For me Martial had a better first season for us than Greenwood, Martial was a year (2?) older than what Greenwood was in his first, so it doesn’t really come as a huge shock imo. I think Greenwood will be better than both Martial and Marcus in the long run.

Pretty weird reply mate, have to say.
I never said that you did imply it. That’s why I referred to the forum.
 

Handré1990

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I never said that you did imply it. That’s why I referred to the forum.
Not seen much of it on the forum either, you have a few obvious ones who could well be categorized as acolytes in the cult of Anthony M, other than that he gets a little too rough a ride here imo.
 

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TOP 10 SPEED STARS
1. Kyle Walker (Man City) - 23.49mph
2. Adama Traore (Wolves) - 23.48mph
3. Mason Greenwood (Man United) - 23.36mph
4. Trezeguet (Aston Villa) - 23.36mph
5. Aaron Wan-Bissaka (Man United) - 23.36mph
6. Caglar Soyuncu (Leicester) - 23.33mph
7. Ainsley Maitland-Niles (Arsenal) - 23.27mph
8. Shane Long (Southampton) - 23.21mph
9. Fred (Man United) - 23.17mph
10. Phil Foden (Man City) - 23.07mph

This is one of the most shocking&exciting thing I have learned this season!!! I used to think that Mason lacked pace (that electric one)! I cannot believe thatn he is faster than Rashford?! even Martial..Marcus can appear like the fastest player in the EPL at times. Fred looks slow as well but then look at his top speed
That obviously doesn't show anything worthwhile. Top speed stats is not needed to figure out that Rashford covers ground faster than Greenwood, and that Fred isn't our third best in that category.
 

Raven

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I'm glad there's some semblance of reality waking hold here. Mason is a phenomenal talent but people need to slow down a bit, he is not yet better than Martial or Rashford. He has around the same natural talent as Martial as far as I'm concerned.
 

keithsingleton

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I think both sides are correct in a sense.

Greenwood has a higher level than both, but he's only 18 and will still be inconsitent for a while. We need to keep calm and expect that he migh be invisible for some matches like Palace away, or he might be a match winner like Bournemouth. He will have moments of both for the next couple of years while he develops, by 21-22 he will start to become our main main.
I know this much, Greenwood is calmer than us fans. :D
He's exciting to watch even when he's inconsistent like you say and no doubting his ability to improve with age and fill out more (( like they did with De Gea )) I can't remember the last time I saw a 18 year old so composed no matter what the circumstances are.

Being able to shoot with both feet I'd love to see what he's like taking penalties. The lad does appear to have the three Cs ........ Cool -Calm - Collective. Alan Shearers comments the other week gave the impression (( all though didn't say it )) if he stays in England he could go close to his record. Exciting times for sure with him.

PS.. Off topic because cannot quite post yet on F1. Hammy looks nailed on weekend. I'll read your comment on F1 thread... Now, back on topic..

COME ON YOU REDS. :)
 

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https://talksport.com/football/7389...onderkid-premier-league-world-class-analysis/

He will displace Martial next season simply because he's a better finisher who can score in a wider variety of situations.
He will take advantage of the chances, and space, that Sancho will create.
Thats not a slight on Anthony.
Sancho can play from the left, Greenwood from the right, and Martial up top. Martial right now has a much better hold up play than Greenwood, and that's very important for the forward in 4-2-3-1.
 

Raven

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https://talksport.com/football/7389...onderkid-premier-league-world-class-analysis/

He will displace Martial next season simply because he's a better finisher who can score in a wider variety of situations.
He will take advantage of the chances, and space, that Sancho will create.
Thats not a slight on Anthony.
Literally nothing I've seen from Mason this season suggests that he'll displace Martial. Incredible overrating. Yes, he can strike a ball more cleanly but he's inferior at literally every single other part of the game. It's no slight, Greenwood's 6 years younger, but that's just how it is.
 

cyberman

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Literally nothing I've seen from Mason this season suggests that he'll displace Martial. Incredible overrating. Yes, he can strike a ball more cleanly but he's inferior at literally every single other part of the game. It's no slight, Greenwood's 6 years younger, but that's just how it is.
Its his wider variety of finishing thats the difference. Martial just doesn't shoot enough. He doesnt use the space to get quick shots away, for example. Picture a Martial goal and hes either 1 on 1 v the keeper or side footing it into the corner on his right foot.
Mason backs up the defenders because he can go either way and gets his shot away quickly with the space he creates. He can place it or slap it in from 20 yards and doesnt need to be behind the defensive line to do it.
Ive praised Martial on here, Im a huge fan of his. Mason being two footed with the threat we will have down both flanks is a huge plus in his favour.
In also not saying do it tomorrow but another 8 months of this rate of progression for Mason will see him leapfrog Anthony in that timeframe imo.
 

marc1_007

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Its his wider variety of finishing thats the difference. Martial just doesn't shoot enough. He doesnt use the space to get quick shots away, for example. Picture a Martial goal and hes either 1 on 1 v the keeper or side footing it into the corner on his right foot.
Mason backs up the defenders because he can go either way and gets his shot away quickly with the space he creates. He can place it or slap it in from 20 yards and doesnt need to be behind the defensive line to do it.
Ive praised Martial on here, Im a huge fan of his. Mason being two footed with the threat we will have down both flanks is a huge plus in his favour.
In also not saying do it tomorrow but another 8 months of this rate of progression for Mason will see him leapfrog Anthony in that timeframe imo.
Ruud Van Nistelrooy was a deadly finisher and his best period at utd was during the Beckham era because utd used to create so many chances every game and get the ball in to the box at every opportunity and Ruud used to feast, but when we signed a young Ronaldo, the crosses stopped coming in, because a lot of the time he was more selfish and Ruud made so many runs in to the box and the cross never came in and this frustrated Ruud so much, in the end he ended up leaving because Sir Alex, decided he wanted to go with a fluid front three with Rooney, Ronaldo and Saha to obviously get the best out of them all especially Ronaldo. Saha and his link up and was a very big reason why Ronaldo took the next step in his career and Ronaldo did not have to become your typical "cross the ball in to the box winger" instead he became a wide forward.

Greenwood obviously has more to his game than just finishing but at this moment absolutely everything going forward for Utd involved Martial linking up with the whole forward line, his brilliant link up with Rashford, Bruno, Pogba and even Greenwood himself and his strength to hold the ball up, lead the press and involve his teammates.

If you review the season you will notice that every one of our front five had their best period when Martial was in the team and when he was not in the team or starting we struggled mightily yet you will notice that irrespective of who he played with Martial was always consistent this season.

Now the question I ask you is that considering that we don't really create chances without the link up play of Martial being involved, do you think that Mason is ready to be the main centre forward next season at this stage of his development and relative inexperience? I doubt it because finishing is not everything and there are a lot of games where he is quiet and can't seem to get himself involved in the game but the one thing I have noticed about Martial this season is that he tries to remain involved in everything and his back to goal play has improved exponentially and that is mainly because of his good close control and he does not allow defenders to bully him, I am not saying that Mason cannot do the same but the sample size is few and far between and until he has more games as a centre forward, I would not proclaim him as our new number 9 just yet. He will be , just not yet.
 

In Rainbows

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Literally nothing I've seen from Mason this season suggests that he'll displace Martial. Incredible overrating. Yes, he can strike a ball more cleanly but he's inferior at literally every single other part of the game. It's no slight, Greenwood's 6 years younger, but that's just how it is.
This is not true at all. I think Greenwood has better vision and he will show it off as he gets more comfortable in the first team. I wouldn't underrate his technical ability either. He has great consistency with what he wants to pull off is something I noticed at youth level. There are others who you could classify as more technical players (low center of gravity, ball manipulation, first touch), but if you factor in two footedness and that consistent execution, his technique could be said to at least get closer to those others in regards to technical ability. For example, imagine if there was a Greenwood with the same level of technical ability, but not two footed. Clearly there is a chasm between that and more technical players. Being two footed is another portion of one's technical ability in this hypothetical comparison.

As for execution, I wasn't surprised he put perfect weight behind that assist to Bruno in the counter attack. That's an example. The one chance he had to execute a pass like that and he nailed it. The same could be said for his striking ability. I also believe Mbappe has this quality compared to more technical players until you realize he's doing stuff at greater pace (putting more strain on your technical skill) and executing stuff at a high rate.

I think that's a factor to consider when discussing technical ability.
 

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Its his wider variety of finishing thats the difference. Martial just doesn't shoot enough. He doesnt use the space to get quick shots away, for example. Picture a Martial goal and hes either 1 on 1 v the keeper or side footing it into the corner on his right foot.
Mason backs up the defenders because he can go either way and gets his shot away quickly with the space he creates. He can place it or slap it in from 20 yards and doesnt need to be behind the defensive line to do it.
Ive praised Martial on here, Im a huge fan of his. Mason being two footed with the threat we will have down both flanks is a huge plus in his favour.
In also not saying do it tomorrow but another 8 months of this rate of progression for Mason will see him leapfrog Anthony in that timeframe imo.
Martial has literally scored every type of goal this season. I'm sorry but you're overrating Greenwood by an absolute mile if you think he's overtaking our most important player (arguably) within a year. Nobody in our squad can do what Martial does.
 

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Comparing him to Rashford and Martial is silly - Martial has a golden ball to show for his hype, Martial had a Ballon d'Or clause in his contract. The kid is talented but there is a lot of English media fanfare. The reaction to him reminds me of Beckam all over again with his one attribute of bending the ball. Shooting is not enough and time will tell - and that's why I like Rashford's recent effort to grow his game play.
excuse me?!?!

I take it you never watched Beckham play
 

Raven

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This is not true at all. I think Greenwood has better vision and he will show it off as he gets more comfortable in the first team. I wouldn't underrate his technical ability either. He has great consistency with what he wants to pull off is something I noticed at youth level. There are others who you could classify as more technical players (low center of gravity, ball manipulation, first touch), but if you factor in two footedness and that consistent execution, his technique could be said to at least get closer to those others in regards to technical ability. For example, imagine if there was a Greenwood with the same level of technical ability, but not two footed. Clearly there is a chasm between that and more technical players. Being two footed is another portion of one's technical ability in this hypothetical comparison.

As for execution, I wasn't surprised he put perfect weight behind that assist to Bruno in the counter attack. That's an example. The one chance he had to execute a pass like that and he nailed it. The same could be said for his striking ability. I also believe Mbappe has this quality compared to more technical players until you realize he's doing stuff at greater pace (putting more strain on your technical skill) and executing stuff at a high rate.

I think that's a factor to consider when discussing technical ability.
Martial's vision and creativity is excellent, I very much doubt Mason's is better.

I never said Greenwood wasn't technically good. I said that in every other part of the game, bar finishing, he's behind Martial, quite comfortably as well. As I've stated, Mason's a super talent but people need to slow down.
 

Santoryo

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Martial has literally scored every type of goal this season. I'm sorry but you're overrating Greenwood by an absolute mile if you think he's overtaking our most important player (arguably) within a year. Nobody in our squad can do what Martial does.
I blame Gary Neville. He's the one who's embedded this idea to some people that Greenwood is displacing Martial next season :wenger: .
 

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People should wait till the player shows his quality for first team before hyping them as better than one of our best attackers. Greenwood is brilliant young player and he has lot in his locker but he should showcase that in first team.
 

Santoryo

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What an absolute fantasy.
I also blame the excitement for one of our young player, especially academy one doing extremely well upon bursting onto the scene. There is this an element of excitement that always make fans make grandiose claims. Even Martial himself in his first season when he exploded for us was overrated on these very same boards. Folks were claiming they wouldn't replace him for Messi :lol:
 

cyberman

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Martial has literally scored every type of goal this season. I'm sorry but you're overrating Greenwood by an absolute mile if you think he's overtaking our most important player (arguably) within a year. Nobody in our squad can do what Martial does.
Martial doesn't score every type of goal. He may score the odd header or sweeping finish but not consistently.
Im also not expecting Greenwood to do what Martial does. Im expecting him to punch in goals in the space between defenders and midfielders as theyre backing up into their own box using the space that Rashford and Sancho provides.
Im expecting the best finisher in the club to get on the end of the many chances that the attackers will provide next season.
Im also not saying it will happen tomorrow
 

Santoryo

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Having a trademark finish doesn't mean one can't score any other type of goals. Martial didn't score the "odd" goals here and there beside his trademark, he's scored plenty of different type of goals this season. Powerful left foot shot goals, chips etc.
 

In Rainbows

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Martial's vision and creativity is excellent, I very much doubt Mason's is better.

I never said Greenwood wasn't technically good. I said that in every other part of the game, bar finishing, he's behind Martial, quite comfortably as well. As I've stated, Mason's a super talent but people need to slow down.
Vision doesn't equal creativity. I rate Martial's creativity because he has pretty good dribbling, and can create a chance out of nothing due to his ball manipulation in tight areas. I don't think Greenwood has that compared to Martial. However, I've yet to see vision from Martial at a level where I don't think Greenwood can surpass. Like I said, I think Greenwood will start to show that bit by bit as he ages. Same way I thought he would eventually start showing off his right foot's shot where as he didn't to start his United career. Confidence plays a factor.

I will agree to disagree on this point. I give the nod to Greenwood in regards to through ball ability.

By the way, my opinion is geared towards 3-4 years. No way do I agree with what Neville said. I feel like there are two separate discussions. The idea that Greenwood will replace Martial in a year, and discussing the ability of each player. I've nothing to do with the former.