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2019-20 Performances


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Red00012

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Because Greenwood and other youth prospects aren't going to pick up positive attitudes and habits from the seniors. This point has been made over and over.

The conclusion I came to, is we must identify all the shower and remove everyone of them by January. Replacing them, if necessary, with committed, if limited journeymen. All of them. Then maybe we can see the kids play after January.
Yeah that will work wonders so it will.:houllier:
 

Eric7C

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Can you please identify specifically who this shower are, and who they're not. As we obviously need to remove the shower.
Gladly.

Midfielders who pass sideways and back endlessly and not very quickly at that. That includes everyone at the club, including McTominay who has been the brightest this season. It's part of the tactics. Any runs that Greenwood makes will not be rewarded. It's important at this stage of his career that knows what a good midfield support looks like.

It's also important that he can witness a good striker in action. Currently, he can look up to Rashford who almost never gets into the box, who doesn't look for a pass the times he does get into it. He can also look up to Martial who seems perma-crocked.

Finally, the manager who can't coach an attacking pattern of play, who keeps Rashford on freekicks and Young for his floating corners. So, yes, it's a shower from top to bottom.

Happy to be of help.
 

romufc

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Because Greenwood and other youth prospects aren't going to pick up positive attitudes and habits from the seniors. This point has been made over and over.

The conclusion I came to, is we must identify all the shower and remove everyone of them by January. Replacing them, if necessary, with committed, if limited journeymen. All of them. Then maybe we can see the kids play after January.
So why have them in the squad or first team in the first place?

Do you honestly think these negative attitudes are picked only when they start?

What about when they are training witht he first team squad on a daily basis, or when they are coming on 1-0 coming on at 60 mins?

Seriously... it makes no difference to the youth prospects , if you really want to protect them they should be no where near the first team squad unless they are winning.

Fans are so naive these days, what do you think happens to players when you send them on loan in a team that is battling relegation then?
 

Mark Pawelek

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So why have them in the squad or first team in the first place? (1)

Do you honestly think these negative attitudes are picked only when they start? (2)

What about when they are training witht he first team squad on a daily basis, or when they are coming on 1-0 coming on at 60 mins? (3)

Seriously... it makes no difference to the youth prospects , if you really want to protect them they should be no where near the first team squad unless they are winning.

Fans are so naive these days, what do you think happens to players when you send them on loan in a team that is battling relegation then?(4)
1. We have them in the squad because it is currently depleted, often injured, and the youth are, effectively, our reserves. Looks like a mistake to me.
2, 3 & 4. These 90 minute intervals youth players get are what they live and dream for. Playing time influences them. What they do on the pitch defines them. Winning and losing become habits.
3. We shouldn't expect these kids to save the say. It's not fair sending them on when United are down in a match, expecting them to even the score.
4. When youth prospects are on loan, no one expects them to save the day. The don't have extraordinary pressure piled on them. But when they're called the next Van Persie, or next Messi by home fans and journos they get too much pressure piled on their shoulders.

I tried to answer all your questions but you made it hard by interleaving questions with points.
 
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Mark Pawelek

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Gladly.

Midfielders who pass sideways and back endlessly and not very quickly at that. That includes everyone at the club, including McTominay who has been the brightest this season. It's part of the tactics. Any runs that Greenwood makes will not be rewarded. It's important at this stage of his career that knows what a good midfield support looks like.

It's also important that he can witness a good striker in action. Currently, he can look up to Rashford who almost never gets into the box, who doesn't look for a pass the times he does get into it. He can also look up to Martial who seems perma-crocked.

Finally, the manager who can't coach an attacking pattern of play, who keeps Rashford on freekicks and Young for his floating corners. So, yes, it's a shower from top to bottom.

Happy to be of help.
I'll put Matic, Fred, Lingard, Mata, Jones, Rojo in as members of the shower. Probably others too. They are either redundant or a liability. But I don't think any of them have really negative attitudes; just some bad playing habits. The coaching staff need to fix this. Stop playing them until it's fixed. If it can't be fixed - to send them on their way. That's why I'd like to see a few cheap prospects and hardworking journeymen brought in during January. Probably for less then £15m each. Plus - we've been missing a RW for 5 years. We don't have a proper DMC (Matic is ingrained with the wrong habits only ever playing Mourinho's counter-attacking style). Our attacking midfielders do not create, nor score.

Consider this: If Cantona had bad coaches would he've been happy just to do as they say? Or would he have don't extra training to figure out how to unlock the opponents defence - all on his own? Attacking players just can't blame the coach - they need to take responsibility for their own coaching too.
 

romufc

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1. We have them in the squad because it is currently depleted, often injured, and the youth are, effectively, our reserves. Looks like a mistake to me.
2, 3 & 4. These 90 minute intervals youth players get are what they live and dream for. Playing time influences them. What they do on the pitch defines them. Winning and losing become habits.
3. We shouldn't expect these kids to save the say. It's not fair sending them on when United are down in a match, expecting them to even the score.
4. When youth prospects are on loan, no one expects them to save the day. The don't have extraordinary pressure piled on them. But when they're called the next Van Persie, or next Messi by home fans and journos they get too much pressure piled on their shoulders.

I tried to answer all your questions but you made it hard by interleaving questions with points.

1. We have Greenwood in the squad because Ole decided he is third choice this season and he wants him to have game time. Therefore; he let Lukaku and Sanchez go (different convo about not replacing them)

What this tells me, he has faith in the youngster and has had a chat to him about it too.

2. Playing time influences them yes, but what I am saying is what is the difference between him coming on for 30 mins when we a goal down to him playing the full game? He isn't going to influence much in 30 mins ? why not just give him a game ?
Greenwood has already come out this season saying he is not used to interval playing time, he is used to playing full 90 mins.

3. The last point about pressure, when a player produces numbers like he has in the youth league, there will be eyes on him and pressure because he has done so well and this comes with the territory.

I agree it is unfair but when you are talented, it is not uncommon for players of his age to start games.

e.g. CHO, Sancho, Mbappe, TAA, Mount. This is to name a few on the top of my head but across Europe there will be alot more.
 

Mark Pawelek

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1. We have Greenwood in the squad because Ole decided he is third choice this season and he wants him to have game time. Therefore; he let Lukaku and Sanchez go (different convo about not replacing them)
Mistake. James is Sanchez replacement. Ole should've got a Lukaku replacement.

What this tells me, he has faith in the youngster and has had a chat to him about it too.
But Greenwood is too similar to Martial and Rashford in style.

2. Playing time influences them yes, but what I am saying is what is the difference between him coming on for 30 mins when we a goal down to him playing the full game? He isn't going to influence much in 30 mins ? why not just give him a game ?

Greenwood has already come out this season saying he is not used to interval playing time, he is used to playing full 90 mins.
I don't have an argument against giving him a game - in his natural position. Depending on circumstances. Some PL teams have a reputation for brutality; Newcastle are one. That's my honest opinion. My previous post is mostly what Ole's critics say. I think a middle ground between "just play kids" and "don't play kids" will be "choose the right time to play them, play them in their best position". Before - I was playing the devils advocate.

3. The last point about pressure, when a player produces numbers like he has in the youth league, there will be eyes on him and pressure because he has done so well and this comes with the territory.

I agree it is unfair but when you are talented, it is not uncommon for players of his age to start games.

e.g. CHO, Sancho, Mbappe, TAA, Mount. This is to name a few on the top of my head but across Europe there will be alot more.
Put play them in their natural position. Give them a break against Neanderthal, or brutal teams; especially away from home. I think the best games to play the kids in will be against footballing teams. Norwich?

The 4-2-3-1 counter-attacking setup isn't helping either. Likewise the midfield side-ways passing. Play kids in a formation and style they know and thrive in.
 
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romufc

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Mistake. James is Sanchez replacement. Ole should've got a Lukaku replacement.

But Greenwood is too similar to Martial and Rashford in style.

I don't have an argument against giving him a game - in his natural position. Depending on circumstances. Some PL teams have a reputation for brutality; Newcastle are one. That's my honest opinion. My previous post is mostly what Ole's critics say. I think a middle ground between "just play kids" and "don't play kids" will be "choose the right time to play them, play them in their best position". Before - I was playing the devils advocate.

Put play them in their natural position. Give them a break against Neanderthal, or brutal teams; especially away from home. I think the best games to play the kids in will be against footballing teams. Norwich?

The 4-2-3-1 counter-attacking setup isn't helping either. Likewise the midfield side-ways passing. Play kids in a formation and style they know and thrive in.
I am not too sure that the playing style is the same, Greenwood seems to be the player that is not bothered about touching the ball and wants the ball to be played into him in the box or outside it.

Martial and Rashford are more wide forwards.

I agree, tbh I thought you were talking about not playing him. My argument is to fans who say he cannot start because if he is in the squad and playing 30 mins weekly, start him on the odd occassion especially if Rashford is not firing.

When Martial is back, you probably start him anyway.

The point about position is spot on, playing Greenwood on the right makes no sense at all because you have 2 players out of position. Him and Rashford and he starts adapting to that position whereas the reason he is been brought into the first team is what he has been doing in the youth leagues. Then why change the way he plays? Ofcourse he won't have the same impact playing out of position.

It seems Ole is playing kids for the sake of it, it showed against Alkmar where he did not trust Greenwood in the ST role so rotated James and Greenwood and kept moving Gomes about too.
 

Shimo

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Physically he is not ready to play the CF in Ole's system. Imagine him trying to receive the ball with premier league defenders, he'd get so bullied. Even Rashford who has gotten quite a bit bigger struggles.

I have not seen him in youth sides but, from what I have gathered, his talent and the fact that those he normally comes up against are not as imposing, he can be a lot more effective. But, seeing him in the first XI, can tell he is so not ready to be a starter yet. Can't remember which game it was a ball was played into the channel and commentator noted, in the youth team he might have been favored but, not here - and this was against a CB from Rochdale or Astana I think.

It's probably why Ole even chose to start him as a wide player and put James as a striker, because in training he must see that he is just not yet ready to go up against men. His finishing ability in games when he does get chances can be useful but, probably can't be relied on as a CF starter for a while.
 

Zoo

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Is he still with the England u21 team? Does anyone know?
He pulled out with a back injury.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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He is not ready to be CF. His holding up play with defenders behind his back is still raw & physically he’s still easily outmuscled. That’s why I expect Ole to use him on on the right as a wide forward where he will get more space & be unpredictable by taking advantage of not having a weak foot. He will likely to score more as a wide forward, fact is the two goals he scored so far were from right side where he’ll get more space and also because he’s unpredictable, defender & keeper don’t know which foot he will shoot.

In fact he should be playing more than Pereira & Lingard on the right. I really don’t know why Ole hasn’t play him on the right more often & I don’t understand why he’s insisting playing 4231 with no 10 as well. 433 with wide forwards will definitely improve our attack more.
 

He'sRaldo

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He is not ready to be CF. His holding up play with defenders behind his back is still raw & physically he’s still easily outmuscled. That’s why I expect Ole to use him on on the right as a wide forward where he will get more space & be unpredictable by taking advantage of not having a weak foot. He will likely to score more as a wide forward, fact is the two goals he scored so far were from right side where he’ll get more space and also because he’s unpredictable, defender & keeper don’t know which foot he will shoot.

In fact he should be playing more than Pereira & Lingard on the right. I really don’t know why Ole hasn’t play him on the right more often & I don’t understand why he’s insisting playing 4231 with no 10 as well. 433 with wide forwards will definitely improve our attack more.
Does he have the pace and mobility for this role? From what I've seen he's not really special in that department.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Does he have the pace and mobility for this role? From what I've seen he's not really special in that department.
Why does he need the pace? He’s quick enough though & also mobile enough. Look at an example of wide forward was used in Juventus under allegri, Mandzukic. He doesn’t have the pace but was used to play wide forward a few years ago.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Because Greenwood and other youth prospects aren't going to pick up positive attitudes and habits from the seniors. This point has been made over and over.

The conclusion I came to, is we must identify all the shower and remove everyone of them by January. Replacing them, if necessary, with committed, if limited journeymen. All of them. Then maybe we can see the kids play after January.
Absurd logic. Who are the shower players that need to be replaced 'limited journeymen'?
 

amolbhatia50k

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Gladly.

Midfielders who pass sideways and back endlessly and not very quickly at that. That includes everyone at the club, including McTominay who has been the brightest this season. It's part of the tactics. Any runs that Greenwood makes will not be rewarded. It's important at this stage of his career that knows what a good midfield support looks like.

It's also important that he can witness a good striker in action. Currently, he can look up to Rashford who almost never gets into the box, who doesn't look for a pass the times he does get into it. He can also look up to Martial who seems perma-crocked.

Finally, the manager who can't coach an attacking pattern of play, who keeps Rashford on freekicks and Young for his floating corners. So, yes, it's a shower from top to bottom.

Happy to be of help.
So we get rid of all our midfielders, Rashford and Martial and replace them with journeymen.
 

He'sRaldo

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Why does he need the pace? He’s quick enough though & also mobile enough. Look at an example of wide forward was used in Juventus under allegri, Mandzukic. He doesn’t have the pace but was used to play wide forward a few years ago.
I remember when Mandzukic used to play wide left, but I think that was a role specifically for him due to his insane work rate and physicality, meaning he could regularly bully his fullbacks. Not many players can play that role.


If Greenwood is playing wide he'll be up against pacy fullbacks a lot, so unless he plays more as a striker and comes inside often, he'll need to have some form of physicality to beat them. Acceleration, agility, stamina, etc.


The best work I've seen him do is finding space in the penalty box, so I don't think we should take that instinct away from him by playing him wide and having him beat men before he can get into the box.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I remember when Mandzukic used to play wide left, but I think that was a role specifically for him due to his insane work rate and physicality, meaning he could regularly bully his fullbacks. Not many players can play that role.


If Greenwood is playing wide he'll be up against pacy fullbacks a lot, so unless he plays more as a striker and comes inside often, he'll need to have some form of physicality to beat them. Acceleration, agility, stamina, etc.


The best work I've seen him do is finding space in the penalty box, so I don't think we should take that instinct away from him by playing him wide and having him beat men before he can get into the box.
I never understand why people always want wide forward need to be pacy or know how to outmuscle full back, it’s ver limited thinking imo. The guy is unpredictable with his feet. Full back can’t even predict where he’s going to go or what he’s going to do whether he’s going to cut inside or going straight or shoot or crossing or pass. It’s also nightmare for full back to deal with this type of player. He has demonstrated it against Cardiff last season.

No. Wide forward can also play as a target man who plays wide where he can find a space to score. That’s why I said 433 and by playing in this role he will get more space than playing central. Playing one two or link up play his other attackers. Pick up some runners or make a diagonal run into the penalty box.
 

Eric7C

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Down on Ole and the coaches @amolbhatia50k

..which doesn't change the fact that it's not a great team for Greenwood to develop in at the moment.
 

Conor

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He seems to miss a lot of easy chances, for the most natural finisher the world has ever seen.
 

kundalini

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Expected him to finish that big chance near the end. Getting dispossessed cheaply, perhaps less of a surprise.
 

MadDogg

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Had a bit of a shocker when he came on, but that'll happen. Young players are inconsistent. He's had a couple of bad ones in a row now if I remember correctly, so now would be a great time for him to be taken completely out of the firing line for a while. Unfortunately we don't have the option to do that as we don't have any other striker options.
 

Alemar

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Still Mason got his chance, made himself available. And actually had a shot on target - so it was by no means "bad performance".
 

WR10

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Sluggish. No spring in his legs today. Looked like he had been drained the night before.
 

ash_86

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Anyone thinks his hold up play isn't that great? That's quite necessary for a striker.
 

Alemar

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He should be scoring that.
Yes, as well as Martial should be scoring a header from 2 meters, and as well as two penalties should have been scored.

It's worse if a forward doesnt have opportunities.
 

lumeyes

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Anyone thinks his hold up play isn't that great? That's quite necessary for a striker.
He definitely has the capacity for good hold up play, just watch his games at the lower levels. He is still young and finding his feet, but I have no doubts that, baring injuries and getting carried away, he is going to be a top player. He needs time and patience in my opinion
 

11101

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It's getting time for him to start standing out in some of these appearances.