Mason Greenwood, Marseille Footballer | Read the thread rules in the OP before posting

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I believe penalties still count as goals?
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ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
But Cole didn’t. It’s an important skill and far from every striker is a good penalty taker.
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He isn't a particularly good penalty taker. He just takes them all. His conversion rate is 70%.

The point is that it's an unfair comparison, and a lot of players would look better than what they are if they were their team's penalty kick taker. Greenwood is Ligue 1's top scorer because 5 out of his 14 goals have been penalties. Then you have Esteban Lepaul (who?) and Pavel Sulc (again, who?) who has 11 and 10 respectively and none are penalties. Penalties just inflate the numbers to a stupid amount when you get as many penalties as Marseille does during a season.

whitbyviking said:
I’m not defending greenwood at all but one of them plays for a significantly better side, so you if you normalise for a penalty taker advantage you need to normalise for that.

He’s not as good as Dembele, but he’s not far away in some aspects.
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No, not at all :lol:

I'm not sure that's how football works. You don't by default score more goals and get more assists when you play for a better team. There are hundreds of examples that will back that.
 
Trigestis said:
He isn't a particularly good penalty taker. He just takes them all. His conversion rate is 70%.

The point is that it's an unfair comparison, and a lot of players would look better than what they are if they were their team's penalty kick taker. Greenwood is Ligue 1's top scorer because 5 out of his 14 goals have been penalties. Then you have Esteban Lepaul (who?) and Pavel Sulc (again, who?) who has 11 and 10 respectively and none are penalties. Penalties just inflate the numbers to a stupid amount when you get as many penalties as Marseille does during a season.


No, not at all :lol:

I'm not sure that's how football works. You don't by default score more goals and get more assists when you play for a better team. There are hundreds of examples that will back that.
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Good post.
 
Trigestis said:
He isn't a particularly good penalty taker. He just takes them all. His conversion rate is 70%.

The point is that it's an unfair comparison, and a lot of players would look better than what they are if they were their team's penalty kick taker. Greenwood is Ligue 1's top scorer because 5 out of his 14 goals have been penalties. Then you have Esteban Lepaul (who?) and Pavel Sulc (again, who?) who has 11 and 10 respectively and none are penalties. Penalties just inflate the numbers to a stupid amount when you get as many penalties as Marseille does during a season.
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Case in point. Ligue 1 goal scorers excluding penalties:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/lig...ailpos=&altersklasse=alle&exclude_penalties=1
 
Trigestis said:
I'm not sure that's how football works. You don't by default score more goals and get more assists when you play for a better team. There are hundreds of examples that will back that.
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This. So many people think if a player is scoring a lot for a lesser team, then they'll get huge numbers for a better side.
The thing is, they're probably that teams absolute number 1 option, their best player, so everything they do goes through him.
Mbuemo scored 20 goals last season, he's on for 15 this (with his current goals per game ratio).
Cunha scored 15 last season, he's on for 9 this.
Both are at better teams, why haven't they upped their numbers?
Andy Cole broke records at Newcastle, 34 league goals in his first season. His best ever season for United was 19 league goals. Why didn't he start hitting 40+?
In his best run, between '92 and '95 Le Tissier scored 60 Prem goals in 3 seasons, a cracking return. Would he have pulled those numbers at United? Hypothetical of course, but almost certainly not. The team wouldn't be set up purely for him the way Southampton were. The players wouldn't all play for him, look for him everytime they got the ball.

It's just not the case when people use that stick of "Oh you play for them, so obviously you score loads" as a stick to beat players with.
 
dazjoe said:
This. So many people think if a player is scoring a lot for a lesser team, then they'll get huge numbers for a better side.
The thing is, they're probably that teams absolute number 1 option, their best player, so everything they do goes through him.
Mbuemo scored 20 goals last season, he's on for 15 this (with his current goals per game ratio).
Cunha scored 15 last season, he's on for 9 this.
Both are at better teams, why haven't they upped their numbers?
Andy Cole broke records at Newcastle, 34 league goals in his first season. His best ever season for United was 19 league goals. Why didn't he start hitting 40+?
In his best run, between '92 and '95 Le Tissier scored 60 Prem goals in 3 seasons, a cracking return. Would he have pulled those numbers at United? Hypothetical of course, but almost certainly not. The team wouldn't be set up purely for him the way Southampton were. The players wouldn't all play for him, look for him everytime they got the ball.

It's just not the case when people use that stick of "Oh you play for them, so obviously you score loads" as a stick to beat players with.
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I think Isak is another example. I know hes been injured but his goal output went down fast.
 
Anyone that says he’s not an outstanding player is blinded by events of the past
 
Comparing Greenwood to Dembélé is close in insanity to the "Mbappé vs Rashford" threads of old.
bosskeano said:
Anyone that says he’s not an outstanding player is blinded by events of the past
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He is a very good Ligue 1 player that would be a bench player in any top side. Would probably not even get significant sub minutes at PSG for example.
 
dazjoe said:
This. So many people think if a player is scoring a lot for a lesser team, then they'll get huge numbers for a better side.
The thing is, they're probably that teams absolute number 1 option, their best player, so everything they do goes through him.
Mbuemo scored 20 goals last season, he's on for 15 this (with his current goals per game ratio).
Cunha scored 15 last season, he's on for 9 this.
Both are at better teams, why haven't they upped their numbers?
Andy Cole broke records at Newcastle, 34 league goals in his first season. His best ever season for United was 19 league goals. Why didn't he start hitting 40+?
In his best run, between '92 and '95 Le Tissier scored 60 Prem goals in 3 seasons, a cracking return. Would he have pulled those numbers at United? Hypothetical of course, but almost certainly not. The team wouldn't be set up purely for him the way Southampton were. The players wouldn't all play for him, look for him everytime they got the ball.

It's just not the case when people use that stick of "Oh you play for them, so obviously you score loads" as a stick to beat players with.
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I didn’t say it was a default they’ll score more goals. I said you have to normalise for playing for a better side that usually creates and scores more. Can’t find chance creation stats but over the past 5 seasons PSG have scored more than 120 goals more than Marseille. This range excludes their record breaking 100+ seasons before that.

Generally speaking players will get more and better chances to score playing for a better team. That is my point and “normalising” doesn’t suggest you immediately assume somebody would score more, it means you work out a way to adjust to reflect the chance creation stats.

In any league who do the top scorers and top assisters play for? Top 1-3 sides? In a predominately 1 team league does that skew it more.
 
Hard to imagine why Greenwood would want to come back and potentially open himself up to massive attacks from media et al.

Is money really worth the misery? He seems reasonably happy in Europe
 
whitbyviking said:
I didn’t say it was a default they’ll score more goals. I said you have to normalise for playing for a better side that usually creates and scores more. Can’t find chance creation stats but over the past 5 seasons PSG have scored more than 120 goals more than Marseille. This range excludes their record breaking 100+ seasons before that.

Generally speaking players will get more and better chances to score playing for a better team. That is my point and “normalising” doesn’t suggest you immediately assume somebody would score more, it means you work out a way to adjust to reflect the chance creation stats.

In any league who do the top scorers and top assisters play for? Top 1-3 sides? In a predominately 1 team league does that skew it more.
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Why do you have to normalise that? If you want to do that for one player, you have to do it for every player, so if you assume Greenwood were to score more goals and assist more for PSG, then so would Esteban Lepaul, Pavel Sulc, Wesley Saïd, Panichelli and Édouard. A lot of players thrive in the environment where you don't have the same kind of pressure, or where you are "the" player that your team relies on. I can't think of many examples where players have gone to better clubs and improved their numbers drastically. I can, however, think of a lot of examples of the opposite.

The point was that the only reason Greenwood is anywhere near that statistic is because he is the only one that takes the penalties. If he didn't, he would just be another Ligue 1 attacker with okay numbers in a relatively speaking, weaker league. No one would care, just like we don't care about Lepaul or Sulc.
 
NewGlory said:
Hard to imagine why Greenwood would want to come back and potentially open himself up to massive attacks from media et al.

Is money really worth the misery? He seems reasonably happy in Europe
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Where’s it say anywhere he’s coming back? There’s no English club going to bring him back whether he wants to or not is irrevelant
 
antk said:
Comparing Greenwood to Dembélé is close in insanity to the "Mbappé vs Rashford" threads of old.

He is a very good Ligue 1 player that would be a bench player in any top side. Would probably not even get significant sub minutes at PSG for example.
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He doesn't start for arsenal ahead of Martinelli or Jesus? For Liverpool ahead of Gakpo/aging Salah? For United? Is Semenyo much better than him?
 
Red00012 said:
Where’s it say anywhere he’s coming back? There’s no English club going to bring him back whether he wants to or not is irrevelant
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There are rumors about Unted reaching out
 
antk said:
Comparing Greenwood to Dembélé is close in insanity to the "Mbappé vs Rashford" threads of old.

He is a very good Ligue 1 player that would be a bench player in any top side. Would probably not even get significant sub minutes at PSG for example.
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Sorry but i think you are incorrect here. He would get in most top sides.
 
Trigestis said:
Why do you have to normalise that? If you want to do that for one player, you have to do it for every player, so if you assume Greenwood were to score more goals and assist more for PSG, then so would Esteban Lepaul, Pavel Sulc, Wesley Saïd, Panichelli and Édouard. A lot of players thrive in the environment where you don't have the same kind of pressure, or where you are "the" player that your team relies on. I can't think of many examples where players have gone to better clubs and improved their numbers drastically. I can, however, think of a lot of examples of the opposite.

The point was that the only reason Greenwood is anywhere near that statistic is because he is the only one that takes the penalties. If he didn't, he would just be another Ligue 1 attacker with okay numbers in a relatively speaking, weaker league. No one would care, just like we don't care about Lepaul or Sulc.
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We’re comparing two players, why would you need to do it for every player?

Do you not think clubs look at things like this when they consider transfers? How players translate to prospective new clubs is without a doubt the most important thing when considering signing them. I could be wildly wrong but I think they’ll look at his numbers and his attributes and then see how they fit into their side, one of the factors they will consider is the fact they score 40% more goals and create however many more chances than then team he is playing for. This is the normalising I’m talking about.

Also, who earns the penalties, is it the taker himself and would he score if not fouled? You can’t look at penalties alone and judge off that. Same could be said of Dembele, is he winning all the penalties and therefore being denied more goals.

In my opinion you have to attempt to normalise things to have a basis for comparison, otherwise stats are often meaningless.

This doesn’t suggest for one minute that he is better than dembele. But he’s not far away in some regards, mainly finishing.
 
2 man midfield said:
Yeah if my grandmother had wheels and all that. But still, being a teams penalty taker is going to inflate your goals compared to someone who doesn't. If Dembele took penalties as well then it would be a fair comparison.
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To be fair he does, he's taken the most of PSG's penalties this season.
 
stevoc said:
To be fair he does, he's taken the most of PSG's penalties this season.
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Oh right, fair enough. I don't know who I thought would take them, he's their best player. In my head they still had a queue of galacticos I guess.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
He doesn't start for arsenal ahead of Martinelli or Jesus? For Liverpool ahead of Gakpo/aging Salah? For United? Is Semenyo much better than him?
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I doubt it. Whenever I've watched Greenwood play, he plays with very little defensive responsibility so I can't see him starting for us on the wing. I also reckon both Martinelli and Jesus would put up similar numbers to Greenwood in Ligue 1
 
Mogget said:
I doubt it. Whenever I've watched Greenwood play, he plays with very little defensive responsibility so I can't see him starting for us on the wing. I also reckon both Martinelli and Jesus would put up similar numbers to Greenwood in Ligue 1
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He didn't play with many defensive responsibilities when he played for us either, and was a regular for us at the time. He's obviously improved since then, so I'm not sure if this logic is the best when assessing whether or not he could play for United in the present.

In strictly football terms, he would be up against the likes of Amad, Mbeumo, Cunha, and Sesko - plus the likes of Bruno, Dorgu, and Mount; which would make it more difficult for him to get much playing time imo.
 
Roboc7 said:
I don’t think he should ever get a chance at Utd again and he never will. But even if he did do people actually think through the reality of it.

It has a huge detrimental impact on the image of the club, there’s a media circus, every away game would be volatile. There would be real division amongst United fans about it and a lot of opposition. He goes from being under the radar in France to public enemy number one and having to deal with it on a weekly basis. Could he cope with that or why we he even want to be exposed to it.

Everyone has moved on and there’s no real need, benefit or desire to go back on that.
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I can take this on as a PR firm and win in bringing him back. This is easier than folks think.
 
whitbyviking said:
We’re comparing two players, why would you need to do it for every player?

Do you not think clubs look at things like this when they consider transfers? How players translate to prospective new clubs is without a doubt the most important thing when considering signing them. I could be wildly wrong but I think they’ll look at his numbers and his attributes and then see how they fit into their side, one of the factors they will consider is the fact they score 40% more goals and create however many more chances than then team he is playing for. This is the normalising I’m talking about.

Also, who earns the penalties, is it the taker himself and would he score if not fouled? You can’t look at penalties alone and judge off that. Same could be said of Dembele, is he winning all the penalties and therefore being denied more goals.

In my opinion you have to attempt to normalise things to have a basis for comparison, otherwise stats are often meaningless.

This doesn’t suggest for one minute that he is better than dembele. But he’s not far away in some regards, mainly finishing.
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If you want to normalise that players playing for weaker teams are going to have their stats increased by moving to a better club or that it weighs negatively in a comparison, then the comparison between the two (or any other player) is moot and it needs to be considered for every player, not just Greenwood. The point is that Greenwood has these statistics because Marseille are given an absurd amount of penalties. They have been given 16 in the league alone last season and this, and the season is far from done. An almost 37 year old Aubameyang has 6 goals and 5 assists so far in the league without any penalties. Assuming he took Marseille's penalties (and scored the equivalent of Greenwood's percent), he would be on 11 goals and 5 assists this season, and Greenwood would be on 9 goals and 4 assists. Does this mean that we should compare Aubameyang to Dembele as if they're somehow close to equals?

I think clubs look at the fact that he scores 1/3 of his goals as penalties, and if he didn't (because he likely isn't going to be a top club's penalty taker), then he would have his numbers significantly reduced to an average one. Hence the comparison with the other average Ligue 1 attackers that are outscoring him if we exclude penalties. It is an important factor, because being given 16 penalties in a bit over one and a half season is just not sustainable, and extremely unlikely to happen.

There is nothing that indicates that players will get better output when they play for better teams, because there are just too many variables for it to actually happen. There are examples, of course, but there are way more that points the other way.
 
championo said:
I can take this on as a PR firm and win in bringing him back. This is easier than folks think.
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Guarantee you wouldn’t “win”.

Just because a few online fans think it’s ok, you’re massively understating the majority of fans and especially the match going fans who would cause havoc.

Never ever happening.
 
Trigestis said:
It's infuriating that people genuinely have this mindset.
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Never underestimate how pathetically evil a lot of people in this world are.

Honestly, I think the world would be in a better place if we all just realised that it isn't a tiny minority of people like that, it's depressingly way more than we think. And until we genuinely start addressing that, nothing will change. Especially right now when they are emboldened.
 
Redlambs said:
Never underestimate how pathetically evil a lot of people in this world are.

Honestly, I think the world would be in a better place if we all just realised that it isn't a tiny minority of people like that, it's depressingly way more than we think. And until we genuinely start addressing that, nothing will change. Especially right now when they are emboldened.
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Yeah, these scumbags need to be ashamed to speak out. We were heading that direction on a few topics and were doing relatively well compared the era when I was a kid. But in some ways its worse than ever.
 
golden_blunder said:
Go on then, tell us how you’d make this right
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I'd be interested to see as well. The stuff they'd usually trot out about growing or learning from the past etc can't happen - as he'd basically be admitting to a crime he hasn't served time for. How can you grow from something you won't take accountability for?
 
2 man midfield said:
I'd be interested to see as well. The stuff they'd usually trot out about growing or learning from the past etc can't happen - as he'd basically be admitting to a crime he hasn't served time for. How can you grow from something you won't take accountability for?
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Yeah I’m curious how he’d spin it
 
MiceOnMeth said:
He doesn't start for arsenal ahead of Martinelli or Jesus? For Liverpool ahead of Gakpo/aging Salah? For United? Is Semenyo much better than him?
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Arsenal would be a good fit for him. They'd have no problems with his past controversy.
 
golden_blunder said:
Go on then, tell us how you’d make this right
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I will DM you a three point stance that l believe will work. Don’t want to post it here yet but after we chat through and you want it here, I will go ahead and post. On a road trip now but can’t get sometime tonight.
 
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