Matic as single pivot [Pogba stays scenario]

[Maticmaker]

The problem of whether Matic's legs have gone or not is in a way immaterial, he is the only senior player we have who is a proper DM and who thinks like one.
Ole will need him in certain games, at certain times, to block holes/bolster the defence and/or or to release others elsewhere.
Matic is now like the family heirloom 'China tea set', only brought out on special occasions and never put into the dishwasher.

go Nemanja, life in the old dog yet!

 

[Cassidy]

Just replace Matic

 

[Ali Dia]

Just replace Matic

It’s probably going to end up being the new dilemma position every summer. I trust we are looking though. Camavinga and Neves links are reassuring at least

 

[youngrell]

Matic's problem seems to be getting up the field these days. I know he intentionally drops in between the centre backs but he stays too long, struggles to get out when needed and it invites a bit too much pressure.

I wish he was 7-8 years younger because he would be such a perfect fit.

 

[laughtersassassin]

The problem with United is our crap planning.

A smart team would have moved magic on and signed a DM years ago.

A really smart team would have never signed Matic in the first place. Fabinho was begging to be signed at the time.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Yeah Matic needs to be used far more. He can't do it multiple times a week but he's still a far better player when fresh and in form. Does more on the ball with his movement with the balls, does more on the ball with his progressive passing through the lines, is less careless with the ball and gives it away far less often, while being defensively secure.

This was how they stacked up last season. Obviously big difference in the games played, but he's just a far better player and more complete. Fred next to him would be the best partnership IMO.

He rarely start for us and when he did, it was against the lesser teams. So the stats can look better to players who rarely start, that's common. Using eye test, I can see he's done. The guy is easily outrunned nowdays. May be Varane will improve this but I doubt it will be much difference.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Time is running, so far it looks 50/50 if Pogba will stay but let's assume he does. In that scenario it's very unlikely we will buy a class Defensive Midfielder, so I was wondering if we could still play 4-3-3 with Matic at the base (as an alternative to 4-2-3-1/4-2-4 we do now).

I've stated multiple times during last season, Matic has been massively misused, and although he's 33, still looks mobile enough to play in midfield - especially with 2 guys supporting him. Before people jump to say "his legs are gone", just a reminder Carrick at 34 still played 28 games in EPL (which by the way is more than for example Pogba played last season)- and Carrick was way less mobile than Matic.
On the other hand, Matic has been rather good whenever he played. Nothing spectacular, but he is the ONLY player who can actually play single DM in front of back 4. McTominay, Fred - forget it. His technique is top class, he can pass and dribble in tight spaces although he can't be expected to hold midfield on his own.

So as an alternative to McFred+Bruno (which I expect to be our basic system), we could play Matic as sitting DM, supported by Fred/McTominay/Van de Beek/one of the youngsters and Pogba in midfield. That would either enable us to rest Bruno, or play him as part of the front 3. Moreover, playing midfield 3 means Pogba can play less restricted role (which is a waste), and we can have one more player without huge responsibility that midfield two demands.

What are your thoughts? I saw some posters selling Matic for 5m to get funds for different players, but can he still be a big part of the team if used correctly?

Not every players are the same, player's leg are gone in various age. Beside, Carrick at his best is better than Matic at his best anyway, so the same argument can be said on Matic on decline is much worse than 34 years old Carrick.

 

[Red00012]

Go watch Matic in his 2 games v Leicester last season .

 

[noodlehair]

Matic and Pogba in the same midfield is never ever going to work no matter how you dress it up. The two between them cover the midfield ground work of less than 1 player.

 

[11101]

We already did this when he first joined. It doesn't work. He started well but soon he started to drop off and was abysmal for the next few months. He doesn't have the legs to play regularly anymore.

 

[Borys]

@Borys

You're only thinking offensively.

when we are attacking and lose the ball high up the pitch, Matic needs to be the first line of defence. Counter attacks will just blast past him and the only thing he can do is foul.

He simply cannot run anymore, we've seen numberous occasions of it last season. Think of the goal Tielemans scored against us in the FA cup.

I think we have a different understanding of the single pivot 4-3-3 formation I mentioned before. The idea is to have two additional midfielders who are between DM and front line, so why would you suggest Matic has to be first line of defence?
I am not saying he's mobile enough, but it won't be a problem if he plays holding position.

What is the obsession with playing a 433 when we look so much more balanced in a 4231, both defensively and going forward?

Pogba doesn't need to push high up the pitch. We will have the front quartet and the full-backs to do that. What Pogba needs to do is control games for us. Be that deep-lying playmaker that we so desperately need. Someone who knows when to quicken up the pace, slow it down, switch the ball, play through the lines, play it simple, etc. He has demonstrated that he can do it but needs to do it more often.

I think the reason is people are not so obsessed about Pogba playing deep lying playmaker anymore. Joking aside, I think we need to find some alternatives to McFred+Bruno and a place for Pogba. 4-3-3 seems like a good option.

You can have weakness in your game, like Matic has lack of mobility. But it needs to be compensated by something else. Carrick was majestic in the 2012-13 season, creating opportunities for us all the time and conducting the game from midfield. We could play limited players who could run around him to help mask it. But with Matic, we would then need a midfielder who can both run and do creative passing. Which we don't have at the moment.

I see your point, although I'd argue Matic has some advantages over Carrick in terms of being much more press resistant and his movement gets him out of difficult situations and creates passing options. Carrick had passing and awareness but he folded easily under pressure so it evens out.

Matic and pogba in a midfield two. It'll be party time for the opposition with so much space available

Matic needs to be nowhere near our first team.

He's not capable of playing at this level in a two, let alone by himself and certainly can't play at a consistent level week in week out.

I agree, that's why I wrote the OP. I encourage to read it.

He rarely start for us and when he did, it was against the lesser teams. So the stats can look better to players who rarely start, that's common. Using eye test, I can see he's done. The guy is easily outrunned nowdays. May be Varane will improve this but I doubt it will be much difference.

But it's perfectly fine if we can line up like that against lesser teams. That at least is an alternative to playing one single formation relying on one player to do the magic.

Not every players are the same, player's leg are gone in various age. Beside, Carrick at his best is better than Matic at his best anyway, so the same argument can be said on Matic on decline is much worse than 34 years old Carrick.

I agree with the general point, but "at his best" is a very poor way to compare players. Pogba at his best is probably one of the best players in the world, but it doesn't mean much for United. Carrick legs were gone long before that anyway, but that's not the point. You can still create an enviroment for those players to perform.

Otherwise are we going into next season with Pogba - Matic two man (second choice) midfield. Or am I missing something?

Go watch Matic in his 2 games v Leicester last season .

What is your point, that he had some bad games? Is he the only one? He had some good ones as well.

We already did this when he first joined. It doesn't work. He started well but soon he started to drop off and was abysmal for the next few months. He doesn't have the legs to play regularly anymore.

Who were the CMs playing with him back then?

 

[Withnail]

I agree, that's why I wrote the OP. I encourage to read it.

I read it. I disagree, No need to be condescending.

 

[Borys]

I read it. I disagree, No need to be condescending.

But why did you say he can't play in midfield two let alone on his own, where I clearly stated he needs support from two other midfielders?

 

[Devil may care]

Can't think of a bigger recipe for disaster. Matic neither has the legs nor the engine to play such a role.

/thread

 

[largelyworried]

I'd be very wary of making our Plan A revolve around a player who is only likely to play half our games at the absolute most, maybe only a third.

 

[Borys]

I'd be very wary of making our Plan A revolve around a player who is only likely to play half our games at the absolute most, maybe only a third.

Like mentioned in OP, I am pretty sure our Plan A will be exactly the same (if Pogba stays) as last season.
But we don't have a plan B and I'm looking for alternatives if we're not buying more players, what seems very likely.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

But it's perfectly fine if we can line up like that against lesser teams. That at least is an alternative to playing one single formation relying on one player to do the magic.

I agree with the general point, but "at his best" is a very poor way to compare players. Pogba at his best is probably one of the best players in the world, but it doesn't mean much for United. Carrick legs were gone long before that anyway, but that's not the point. You can still create an enviroment for those players to perform.

Otherwise are we going into next season with Pogba - Matic two man (second choice) midfield. Or am I missing something?

It's not fine because we lost to Sheffield United with Pogba & Matic. On top of that, I still remember how we were being dominated in midfield vs Brighton. No one want to see that.

When I said ''at his best'', I was talking about their best period means their best seasons not based on one or two matches. So I'm not sure how you can compare Matic with Carrick and Carrick was still at his best even in his 30ish.

 

[Ali Dia]

Matic and Pogba in the same midfield is never ever going to work no matter how you dress it up. The two between them cover the midfield ground work of less than 1 player.

Yup. As I said above. This was meant to work 4 years ago and it still hasn’t. That’s why we signed fred since and why we are looking to sign Camavinga or Neves this summer

 

[CG1010]

Honestly I have never understood why our plan B when Bruno is rested or not playing well during a game is to play the exact same system with Pogba in his place. He can do the job well enough and probably the best player we have for #10/#8 hybrid role after Bruno. But Ole seems to be averse to doing it.

 

[TheRedHearted]

——cavani—
Pogba Bruno Sancho
McTominay Fred
So easy considering rashford is out. Sub for pogba could be martial and sub for Cavani or Sancho is Greenwood.

 

[Withnail]

But why did you say he can't play in midfield two let alone on his own, where I clearly stated he needs support from two other midfielders?

Just because you clearly state it doesn't mean I have to think it's correct.

I don't see how he will get any more protection playing with one of Fred or McT ahead of him in a 4-3-3, especially if Pogba's the other man and will still be too slow to lay a glove on the opposition in defence and even worse when facing a counter attack.

 

[Withnail]

Honestly I have never understood why our plan B when Bruno is rested or not playing well during a game is to play the exact same system with Pogba in his place. He can do the job well enough and probably the best player we have for #10/#8 hybrid role after Bruno. But Ole seems to be averse to doing it.

I don't think Pogba's ever played well in the number 10 position, has he? As far as I recall he's been poor there.

 

[CG1010]

I don't think Pogba's ever played well in the number 10 position, has he? As far as I recall he's been poor there.

He played as most advanced midfielder of Herrera, Matic and Pogba when Ole first came. And he got into the box quite a lot. Someone recently posted stats about how he was our highest scorer and assist maker that season.

 

[Withnail]

He played as most advanced midfielder of Herrera, Matic and Pogba when Ole first came. And he got into the box quite a lot. Someone recently posted stats about how he was our highest scorer and assist maker that season.

That's not the position that Bruno plays.

That was a left sided CM in a 4-3-3. Bruno plays centrally as an AM and often so far forward he's basically a second striker.

 

[Crustanoid]

Matic and Pogba in the same midfield is never ever going to work no matter how you dress it up. The two between them cover the midfield ground work of less than 1 player.

Described once by Barney Ronay as a ‘ midfield like a platoon of Cybermen chasing a litter of kittens.’

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

If no CDM will come in, the midfield situation will not be degraded nor upgraded. That could be risky business, considering the midfield had some poor spells as well last season.

Pogba usually doesnt perform in long consistent spells and you cant count on Bruno all the time since clubs have figured that out, especially the lower placed clubs who sit back. Where will the distribution from the midfield come from if those two hit poor form? Fred is capable of distributing the ball, but he will be tasked with doing the defensive work in midfield. Also, Matic is still able to do a job but not consistently which was clear to see last season. Basically if Pogba stays its the same midfield situation as last season with an upgraded defense and attack.

 

[Born2Lose]

For Matic and Pogba together see the 6-1 loss to Spurs last season. There's a reason Ole's default is McT and Fred.

 

[redshaw]

For a DM he sure likes to run backwards with his hands behind his back watching the goals fly in.

Best he can do is about 5-10 games sadly

 

[OrcaFat]

No way to Matic as a single pivot. For all the reasons put up in this thread, frankly sounds like a roar of consensus that it’s a terrible idea.

Bruno has been very much overplayed though and we do need to sort that out.

The way to do it is to rest him completely when his form drops. If we’re sticking with 4231, we can have a pool of 5 players for the three attacking mid spots: Pogba-Bruno-Sancho plus Rashford and Greenwood (these latter two can also rotate with Cavani). That gives us decent options and cover in all 4 front positions. Bruno should get enough rest this year.

As for Matic, I say use him sparingly in the double pivot.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I think the reason is people are not so obsessed about Pogba playing deep lying playmaker anymore. Joking aside, I think we need to find some alternatives to McFred+Bruno and a place for Pogba. 4-3-3 seems like a good option.

433 seems like a good option for who? Fred and McTom are better playing in double pivot. Matic hasn't got the legs to play the single pivot and Bruno is much better as a number 10.

The only one it would benefit is Pogba and this is a player who we dont even know will be at the club in a few weeks. Could argue VdB too but his best games came as a 10/second striker for Ajax.

What we need to be doing is looking at a player who can play in a pivot, defensively good and has a good passing range. Neves doesnt always wow me, but I'd much rather someone like him than Saul or Goretzka.

 

[tomaldinho1]

In the Carabao and early FA cup games, I'm all for this.

PL he's a squad player now at best, he won't ever be a starter again unless there's injuries.

 

[Beachryan]

Can anyone really remember a good 90 mins from Matic in the past 2 seasons? I certainly can't.

He's an utterly liability against any decent opposition, more so the further back you play him.

It would be a disaster to see him start more than a handful of prem matches this season.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Matić could play one or two matches in that role with professionalism, just can't use him consecutively from obvious reasons.

Just get the damn midfielder with tons of stamina and we're set for the season.

 

[harms]

I've stated multiple times during last season, Matic has been massively misused, and although he's 33, still looks mobile enough to play in midfield

He certainly doesn't. And Carrick was more mobile than him as well as better at positioning himself (Matić often relied on his physicality in a younger days while Carrick didn't have that).

Sadly, Matić shouldn't be anywhere near our first team.

 

[Borys]

433 seems like a good option for who? Fred and McTom are better playing in double pivot. Matic hasn't got the legs to play the single pivot and Bruno is much better as a number 10.

Matic can't play as B2B, that's clear for all people here. But he can sit in front of the defense. Bruno is better in no10 for sure that's why we will continue playing as we did last season.

The only one it would benefit is Pogba and this is a player who we dont even know will be at the club in a few weeks. Could argue VdB too but his best games came as a 10/second striker for Ajax.

What we need to be doing is looking at a player who can play in a pivot, defensively good and has a good passing range. Neves doesnt always wow me, but I'd much rather someone like him than Saul or Goretzka.

We're discussing a scenario where Pogba stays and we don't get another midfielder. There is enough threads on who to sell and who to buy, but it's looking likely our team will not change this summer.

It's not fine because we lost to Sheffield United with Pogba & Matic. On top of that, I still remember how we were being dominated in midfield vs Brighton. No one want to see that.

When I said ''at his best'', I was talking about their best period means their best seasons not based on one or two matches. So I'm not sure how you can compare Matic with Carrick and Carrick was still at his best even in his 30ish.

Well that's because both Matic and Pogba are shit in midfield two. And if we don't experiment (like I suggested in the OP) we will start next season with them as our second choice midfield.

He certainly doesn't. And Carrick was more mobile than him as well as better at positioning himself (Matić often relied on his physicality in a younger days while Carrick didn't have that).

Sadly, Matić shouldn't be anywhere near our first team.

Matic can play in midfield three, he's not completely crooked. Carrick was much slower than Matic is right now, and worse on the ball. He did have better passing and positioning but we can still use Matic if we make some adjustments.

It's not only about Matic anyway. I would like to avoid wasting Pogba in limited role of deep midfielder, and I would like to see more midfielders given a chance in some games, which is much easier to do in 4-3-3.

This for sure will not be a default formation, but could be an option if we adjust a bit. I am surprised so many people (everyone?) think Matic is completely done.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Well that's because both Matic and Pogba are shit in midfield two. And if we don't experiment (like I suggested in the OP) we will start next season with them as our second choice midfield.

Like what you mentioned Matic now is shit in 2 pivots. This gives me no confidence in him playing in single pivot trying to protect the back four by himself.

 

[Borys]

We already did this when he first joined. It doesn't work. He started well but soon he started to drop off and was abysmal for the next few months. He doesn't have the legs to play regularly anymore.

I checked that on fbref, he played 27 games at DM position in 17/18 and got 2,37pts per game in those games. In total we had an average of 2,13pts/game that season so that's actually quite good record from him. We played Matic as DM with Pogba, Herrera or Fellaini.
I did not include games where he was DM/CM/CB because I don't know what happened there.

Like what you mentioned Matic now is shit in 2 pivots. This gives me no confidence in him playing in single pivot trying to protect the back four by himself.

He literally has two CMs to support. Are you suggesting it's actually more difficult to play midfield three than midfield two? I don't get that.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

In general I’m 100% against anything that moves Bruno away from the number 10 position. Personally think he has been the best player in the league since he signed.

As for Matic his form has been massive peaks and massive lulls since he went back to Chelsea. Now he is 33 the peaks are not worth the lulls. It was stupid to give him that 3 year contract.

 

[Abraxas]

I think when you distill what Matic has left now, his strengths are mainly in his distribution. He doesn't have the capacity to get close to people, tackle, intercept or even shut off many passing opportunities for the opposition.

This means two things, he's probably not the man to hold the fort on his own and he's probably not going to be great in high tempo matches. This is the way Carrick went at the end, we had to be careful with him. So this idea is unlikely to work.

Where he may be useful is against lesser teams as a rotation. With a bit of space and less obvious pressure from the opposition I think we can use his distribution. He's still one of the best passers we have. But to do that we have to tell him it's not acceptable to be standing as a third centre back. Maguire and Varane have good ability to distribute from those positions. Unless he's specifically covering a run forward from either we need to get Matic up the pitch in the build up more often otherwise he's a body. We also have to use him in the right combinations, maybe with Fred's energy, rather than in tandem with Pogba.

So I think it's going to be quite the opposite to what the OP suggests. Continual sparse use of Matic, rather than a key cog. If there's any chance of getting a tune out of him managing his workload, picking the right games and the right lineups seem key.

 

[MadDogg]

Matic hasn't had a good season since 15/16, six seasons ago. Not only that, he's also pretty much gotten worse each passing season during that time. Why do people think he'll suddenly turn that around now.

16/17 - His last season at Chelsea, he was fairly average.
17/18 - Good for the first half of the season, poor in the second.
18/19 - Atrocious for the first half of the season, a short good period when Ole took over but struggled again later on.
19/20 - Was good for a few weeks after the lockdown, otherwise poor.
20/21 - Ripped apart when played against any kind of decent opposition, predominately trusted to play only against poor teams.