Maybe Lindelof isn’t the problem...

red woppit

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Lindelöf has been our best defender this season in my view. Do not understand why he get so much shit. He does the simple things right most of the time.
Don't agree with that at all. AWB has probably been the most consistent, Shaw has had a good season, Maguire has had a few dodgy moments though, but Lindelof has missed a lot of things. Today he missed the header that led to the first goal, he didn't close down the Brighton player on the edge of the box when De Gea made an excellent save, he's not quick enough to get to the ball first following a ball down the line, just watch the difference when Bailly gets to the ball first second half, the threat has gone, when King picked up the ball first half, they still created an opening. Yes he does some things well, but Bailly is always being slated for having a ' mistake' in him, but Lindelof also makes mistakes. It may be that neither are really ideal for what we want, I've been waiting all season for Axel to get a chance, but he keeps getting injuries, so could Mengi be the right fit? I guess we'll have to wait and see
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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28? Is that old for a CB. We’ll find out if City do get him this summer if we made a mistake or not. I think we could gave got hin for less than 130m also. Wasn't his release clause 115?
Toby Aldeweireld at 31 looks shite.

He's available for around 60m-70m now so I'm not really sure how you can say we made mistake or not because no one doubt his quality. The issue was always been the value was overpriced, his release clause was 130m, that's basically fees of Maguire & Bissaka combined.
 

NinjaFletch

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In all honesty, I think these narratives around Lindelof, Maguire and Shaw absolutely stink of posters making their minds up at the start of the season and fitting the evidence to support the position they arrived at.

Our defensive record has been absurdly good during this run. Even including today's shambles we've conceded 6 goals in 16 games with 11 clean sheets. We're clearly not talking about the cart horses that half of this forum have convinced themselves that we are.

I don't think it's perfect, I do think we could improve on Shaw (particularly going forward) and Lindelof, particularly, but it's not the disaster area some of you are trying to make out it is. Apart from Bailly whose time is probably up.


Correct. There are lot of ball watchers for that goal while Maguire was the only one who could sense the danger and did everything alone but he got blamed just because he got nutmegged.
I think this is true of Maguire in general. He gets very involved and makes a lot of defensive actions, he sometimes comes out on the wrong side of them. Lindelof by comparison makes fewer so makes fewer mistakes.

Maguire definitely should have done better for the goal, but his mistake is compounded by AWB and De Gea also making mistakes. It happens sometimes and we got away with it, not sure there's much more to it than that.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Lindelöf has been our best defender this season in my view. Do not understand why he get so much shit. He does the simple things right most of the time.
Some people just don’t like him. Luke Shaw has the same effect on some fans. People just never want to admit when they play well & just call them shit & demand we “play Bailly & Williams” despite them being considerable downgrades (and I like both)
 

Andersonson

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Just posted it on the Maguire thread, I felt Vic had a very good half and it was Harry who wasn't switched on and got completely mugged for their first goal.

Disappointed with Ole taking Vic off and not Harry.

Captain or not he should set an example.

If the captain can make errors and not be punished then it sends a terrible message.
Vic got off because of back problems.. You should know that before you get "disappointed" in Ole.
 

Adam-Utd

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Both our CBs have a mistake in them but i'd take Maguire over Lindelof every day of the week.

Maguire specialises in something, Lindelof is literally a jack of all master of none.

Today every attack came down our right side as AWB was up the pitch, Lindelof kept getting dragged out and didn't get anywhere near King until the ball was in our box.

That's why he got subbed for Bailly because of his pace. Don't believe the bad back excuse at all unless it suddenly seized up in the dressing room.

Anyways I don't think it helped today that DDG seemed high on drugs or something.

Personally think we should have told AWB to sit deeper after we went 2-1 as it was clearly the tactic to get in behind on our right.
 

Slik

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Why would your subjective ratings convince anyone?
You are not being forced to accept my ratings. You can also offer your opinion. This is a forum and most of what we do here is offer our subjective opinions.
 

Kostov

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Fixed it for you.
Maguire can’t hold Lindelof by his hand when he goes into heading and missing the ball with the attacker. Lindelof is the one which had a realistic chance to clear the danger, another evidence of how poor he is in the air.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I think this is true of Maguire in general. He gets very involved and makes a lot of defensive actions, he sometimes comes out on the wrong side of them. Lindelof by comparison makes fewer so makes fewer mistakes.

Maguire definitely should have done better for the goal, but his mistake is compounded by AWB and De Gea also making mistakes. It happens sometimes and we got away with it, not sure there's much more to it than that.
That's pretty much sums it up that Maguire knows how to sense of danger. I often find football fans underrated this aspect for defenders.

We look at the clip, Lindelof didn't even mark anyone. If he can sense the danger, he should have watch Solanke was free but he was just standing there for no reason. If the ball was passed to Solanke for tap in goal instead of direct shot, Lindelof could be blamed for the mistake for ball watching.
 

Nori-

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It never feels completely safe with Lindelof at the back. He's always got one stupid mistake in the pipe line.

I don't think he'll be replaced though, Ole seems to like him and we have other more important areas which need fixing first
 

Santoryo

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We don't have a problem. The issues people have with our defense is massively overstated.
Pretty much this.

Some people be acting as if we are meant to never concede. If anything these games show how good we are defensively because we've conceded from individual errors rather than faulty defensive shapes and organization. Individual errors are easy to cut out. Despite all the moaning you hear on the Caf about our defense we still have one of the best defensive record in the league(second best I think after Liverpool) and hardly concede many chances a game. Our defense is fine and shouldn't be defined by some blunders here and there.

Look at Liverpool who have just conceded 4 against City or 3 against Watford. These things happen even if the defense as a whole is strong. We've still conceded less than everyone else in the PL in our last 10 or so games. Dismissing our entire defense because of some off moments in a game is ridiculous, but this is the Caf, so what the hell.
 
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TheNewEra

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Now Lindelof cant pass... ha
Whenever I watch Lindelof play he doesn't probe passing unless he is completely free with zero pressure and has time to get his head up and then pass.

Today for instance whenever he got the ball he always goes sideways, very rarely going wide, he wasn't looking to break the defensive line and probe. Many of the modern CBs do it, Pique does it at Barca to release midfielders, Maguire does it to some extent, Peps CBs will do it, VVD will do it, Lindelof isn't a player to probe with passing like that and break lines, Maguire does that more often.

For me defensively on the ground Lindelof is a very very good option as a squad player, but he definitely isn't a ball playing defender, and he definitely isn't an aerial threat to anyone in an opposition box.

I struggle to think of any examples where Lindelof plays good probing passes, or a long ball besides once every few games, it's not a strong area of his game.

Lindelof isn't a player you think "give him the ball and he will split the midfield with a pass", yet the top teams in Europe have what whether its VVD, cities CBs, at Bayern, Barca, or Real Madrid.

Stats wise this year in the league:

Lindelof in the EPL this year, 59 accurate long balls in 30 Appearances, 0 big chances created, 46% tackle success.

Maguire in the EPL this year, 149 accurate long balls in 33 Appearances, 2 big chances created, 62% tackle success.

Maguire is more likely to play longer passes, and spread the play than Lindelof / play probing passes, it's not really a debate if Lindelof can pass, it's just he doesn't get his head up enough.

Defensively it's not only the small errors that United can make at times, but it's transitioning to attack at times, also in general you "playing from the back" if you are just playing it around the defence with short passes all the time you are inviting pressure on yourselves at times, which is great to draw teams out of their shape but I don't think Lindelof has penetrative passing in his locker as much as you'd like.

If you are playing the majority of your passes sideways 4 metres to your pairing CB or just to the RB and thats it, you aren't disrupting the oppositions shape at all. Lindelof for me just isn't at the level of what you would expect.

Defensively I'm fine with Lindelof as a squad player as I've said, but there's definitely better defenders out there to pair Maguire.
 
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Cassidy

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Toby Aldeweireld at 31 looks shite.

He's available for around 60m-70m now so I'm not really sure how you can say we made mistake or not because no one doubt his quality. The issue was always been the value was overpriced, his release clause was 130m, that's basically fees of Maguire & Bissaka combined.
And VVD at 28 is brilliant. Again what is your point?

Godin Thiago Silva etc

Regardless of age though. Im not convinced Maguire is the right guy but hopefully I am wrong because we invested 85m
 
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ReddBalls

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You are not being forced to accept my ratings. You can also offer your opinion. This is a forum and most of what we do here is offer our subjective opinions.
Fair enough, but FIFA-like grades with nothing to back it up is not very convincing. My opinion on Lindelöf & Maguire is based on two things: A nearly impeccable defensive record for the second half of the season (it takes some time to form a relationship) and the way United now start attacks from the back. These are big assets for the team, and contribute in a big way to how the team now perform. In addition to that, both players have yet to reach their prime years as defenders. The bashing of Lindelöf is premature, not very well founded and failing to take in the big picture. All players make mistakes from time to time, but Uniteds back four is statistically one of the best in the Prem, even in a season of transition.

That certainly don't mean the two should not be challenged, but the Lindelöf (and Shaw) bashing on these forums really does my head in.
 

flappyjay

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Our defence has shaped up massively since he came imo.


Unless it's a conscience
2 very good defensive fullbacks had a part in it too. The impact of Shaw and Williams when he played plus AWB for me are a very big factor to our defensive display. Yet it is always made seem like it's Maguire's influence that changed things on the defensive front.
 

Fussmeister

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Mistakes are mistakes and Maguire got mugged. But so did Ddg. Again. But then again so did Vidic with Torres. And he wasn't all that bad. The problem with Lindelof is that we all really can't puzzle what he is good at.
Yeah he doesnt standout in any area. Mayby that is the case here. A reliable boring player that gets the job done.

This place is so fast to judge though and forgets fast as fekk
 

ReddBalls

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Maguire can’t hold Lindelof by his hand when he goes into heading and missing the ball with the attacker. Lindelof is the one which had a realistic chance to clear the danger, another evidence of how poor he is in the air.
Maguire isn't holding his hand, he misses the ball with his (slab) head.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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And VVD bought at 28 is brilliant. Again what is your point?

Regardless of age though. Im not convinced Maguire is the right guy but hopefully I am wrong because we invested 85m
VVD was bought at 26 not 28. Makes sense now?
 

Cassidy

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2 very good defensive fullbacks had a part in it too. The impact of Shaw and Williams when he played plus AWB for me are a very big factor to our defensive display. Yet it is always made seem like it's Maguire's influence that changed things on the defensive front.
AWB instead of Young was a massive improvement.
 

NinjaFletch

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I would have preferred Koulibally for the money paid or even just pay a bit more because he was the correct profile otherwise I think we should have went for a cheaper alternative to Maguire and waited till this summer to splash the cash Marquinios is also a CB I like
But this is it isn't it?

A huge portion of the whinging about Maguire comes from people pissing their pants that he wasn't some fancy Dan signing from a European league they hardly watch. Maybe those would have been better signings, maybe they wouldn't, but I would strongly argue that the one we did make - Maguire - has been a very good one. Holding him to the imagined ideals of perfection that your favoured choice in the position would have hypothetically achieved just seems counter productive.

We've seen plenty of absolutely disastrous signings the Caf loved to know that nothing's a sure thing and here we have a signing that's been very good. People that want to take issue with that just strike me as very strange.
 

flappyjay

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And VVD bought at 28 is brilliant. Again what is your point?

Regardless of age though. Im not convinced Maguire is the right guy but hopefully I am wrong because we invested 85m
Van Dijk is 28 right now, he was bought at 26.
 

ReddBalls

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Pretty much this.

Some people be acting as if we are meant to never concede. If anything these games show how good we are defensively because we've conceded from individual errors rather than faulty defensive shapes and organization. Individual errors are easy to cut out. Despite all the moaning you hear on the Caf about our defense we still have one of the best defensive record in the league(second best I think after Liverpool) and hardly concede many chances a game. Our defense is fine and shouldn't be defined by some blunders here and there.

Look at Liverpool who have just conceded 4 against City or 2 against Watford. These things happen even if the defense as a whole is strong. We've still conceded less than everyone else in the PL in our last 10 or so games. Dismissing our entire defense because of some off moments in a game is ridiculous, but this is the Caf, so what the hell.
Good post.
 

Deery

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I feel AWB is the only world class defender we have and we can’t really judge any of them until we play it n Champions league it will be their big test
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Fair point but not really. Godin? Thiago Silva
Yes thats true. But again at 28 thats not the end at a CB. Thiago Silva Godin etc etc
130m for 28 years old CB?? There is a reason why City didn't go for him last season despite of losing Kompany. Every clubs have the same idea, but it seems you have different one.
 

Cassidy

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130m for 28 years old CB?? There is a reason why City didn't go for him last season despite of losing Kompany. Every clubs have the same idea, but it seems you have different one.
Again 130m is not correct his clause was lower.
secondly 28 is not old for a CB
Thirdly irrespective of age signing a CB who isnt the required quality just because of age doesnt make any sense
85m for a Cb who has not been tested at the highest level?
 

Bilbo

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This forum has always had an obsession with finding/having/creating a scapegoat. Its exhausting
 

Cassidy

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fair enough. Honestly I think 130m for him is a better deal than 85m for Maguire. Thats just how I rate the players. In honestly if it was me I wouldn't have signed either Possibly would have went for Upamencano as a development project and waited a year to find a world class CB who may become available
 

ReddBalls

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Lindelof is the one that cleared it right into the legs of an oppo attacker, nothing to do with slab head. Just a weak as a piss clearance.
It would not even happen if Maguire did not back into him to go for a ball he could not win. Even then, I'd say the way AWB threw himself to the ground and stayed down when Stanislas got the ball was the main enabler for the goal, leaving Maguire alone while Lindelöf covered the area in front of goal.
 

TheNewEra

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Fair point but not really. Godin? Thiago Silva
Agreed, and at advanced ages CBs rely more on experience of being in the right place than pace, Chiellini for example is 35 and he's still not really diminishing, Rio was in his mid 30s when he left United.

Maldini had a long career, and he never looked out of position so he never really had to sprint.

The general reason that stops defenders in their 30s is injuries, and their experience and leadership is a good quality for younger players arguably. I think at 32-33 is when you start to look at replacements for CBs.

Full backs can also cover an older CB at times, and a good CDM also mitigates the issues sometimes.

When you are around your own box I don't really think pace is an issue for a CB, it's positioning. Getting a CB at 28 is still 5 years at least of being at the peak.

Often if you 'get done' with a long pass when your CBs are on the halfway line, in teams like Bayern or Barca, you're often relying on a keeper to come out these days like Ter Stegen or Neuer anyway, and worst case you'd expect a fullback/CB to get there, an older CB is never really the end of the world.

It's when you get defenders like Demichelis who were a real liability in the later years of their career.
 

TheNewEra

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It would not even happen if Maguire did not back into him to go for a ball he could not win. Even then, I'd say the way AWB threw himself to the ground and stayed down when Stanislas got the ball was the main enabler for the goal, leaving Maguire alone while Lindelöf covered the area in front of goal.
I think AWB was at fault for the goal too, he didn't get up quick enough and he didn't need to go to ground at all, he could have marked the space in the box, but hindsight is 20/20 hopefully AWB learns from it