Maybe Lindelof isn’t the problem...

Infra-red

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If 11 clean sheets and 6 goals shipped in 16 games is a problem, I like having problems.
I believe that statistically, we have the third/fourth best defence in the league - if we want to be the best team in the country, it is an area with scope for improvement, particularly if we want to play a more pro-active, expansive style of football.
 

ReddBalls

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I believe that statistically, we have the third/fourth best defence in the league - if we want to be the best team in the country, it is an area with scope for improvement, particularly if we want to play a more pro-active, expansive style of football.
There are more ways to improve than replacing. Playing more together and develop understanding is one. Half the back line was new at the start of the season. United's defensive stats are the second best in the league since New Year's (behind runner-up City). If the back line keep it up, it might certainly be enough now that the attackers finally score. Still needs some competition/cover, though.
 

alexthelion

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If you followed the conversation and what I replied to you would see the point.

It was determined that our defence was good enough and this had been displayed this season. I pointed out that we are fighting for top 4.

So in no way can we say our defence is good enough to win the UCL and PL unless you believe that isnt the goal.
But the goals conceded isn't the problem. At the start of the season it was the lack of goals that put us behind. Hopefully that has now been remedied.

Your point is moot because you are looking at the wrong problem.
 

Cassidy

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But the goals conceded isn't the problem. At the start of the season it was the lack of goals that put us behind. Hopefully that has now been remedied.

Your point is moot because you are looking at the wrong problem.
You havent even grasped the point so better not to respond
 

alexthelion

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Absolutely. I personally hate this British bias towards signing players. And the silly thing is Koulibally would of only cost 10 million extra.
How is £130 million only £10 million more than Maguire?

Some weird maths you've got going there.

If people are whinging and whining about spending £80 million for a CB, can you imagine the state of the Caf if we'd splurged £130 million on one?
 

Cassidy

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How is £130 million only £10 million more than Maguire?

Some weird maths you've got going there.

If people are whinging and whining about spending £80 million for a CB, can you imagine the state of the Caf if we'd splurged £130 million on one?
One that isnt top class and has not been tested at the highest level. The price wasnt the sole issue it was the price and the player
 

alexthelion

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For me it wasnt so much that he got nutmeged. It happens in football. Its his recovery. Like at Bergwin at Spurs. His turning circle is like that of an oil tanker and once they are passed him it takes him ages to recover. On a side note after wathcing it again to be fair to De Gea that ball was pelted at him from about 2 yards. It was impossible to actually stick out an arm and I think it just went in the one gap it could possible have gone. A bit unlucky.
He wouldn't have needed to stick out an arm if he'd been in the right position. You could have driven a bus through the gap he left at the near post. It was terrible keeping.
 

Foxbatt

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The issues I have with Lindelof is that he is not quick, his defensive heading is weak. If we had a very pacy CB to partner him he would be fine. But Harry is even slower than Lindelof. Bailly is a disaster waiting to happen. You never know what he is going to do next? With Lindelof, normally he is reliable now. As for their first goal you cannot put the blame on Lindelof. Two United defenders went for the ball, and he did head it. It is down to DeGea not covering his near post.
In my opinion Lindelof though he is much slower is more reliable than Bailly. Do we need another pacy CB? I think so too. When you have a very slow Matic in DM and then two very slow CBs, we get into trouble sometimes. But I do not think our CBs have been beaten for pace due to their lack of pace alone. We have conceded because our CBs have made mistakes.
 

alexthelion

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This is my point. Since “project restart” Maguire has made two costly errors & the majority of our fans response to this has been “drop Lindelof” I just don’t think it’s particularly fair.

Do I think Lindelof is a world class centre half? No, but I don’t think Maguire is either. I’m not saying drop Maguire I’m just saying let’s be more consistent when players. We see it on here with Matic & Pogba being downplayed too. I feel like our fans just cherry pick sometimes because they just dislike certain players. They all play for United, we shouldn’t dislike any unless they outright disrespect the club.
The problem is, that those two 'errors' would have been covered by a half-decent goalie but, unfortuntely, de Gea made two even bigger errors which resulted in goals.
 

A-man

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Absolutely. I personally hate this British bias towards signing players. And the silly thing is Koulibally would of only cost 10 million extra.
First of all, I haven’t seen all Napoli’s games but I’ve seen a few plus of course match highlights. Has Koulibaly really been that amazing this season? Has he been better than Maguire? Not so sure. Also I would hesitate to sign a 130 mill player, who is approaching his 30s and has been out twice this season for thigh problems.
 

A-man

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You're right A-man, and there definitely needs to be a little perspective applied here, because its very easy to just reach the conclusion that the cafe always needs something to moan about.

You posted the record in big games. Those are champions league level opponents and the defence have not embarrassed themselves. Quite the contrary in fact.

Also the fact that we are currently enjoying a 16 match unbeaten run during which we have conceded the grand total of 6 goals, and of those 6 goals one was a bad error from De Gea against Everton and another was the farcical penalty conceded yesterday. Neither of those goals can be used as evidence of a dodgy defence, so let's call in 4 goals in 16 games.

Just want to repeat that. 4 goals in 16 games.

Its not a statistic that anyone would ever look and reach the conclusion that the defence needs an overhaul, is it?

Thats the problem with the cafe these days. Is there a better centre back than Lindelof in the world that we could buy? Absolutely yes. Should we always be looking to improve the team? Absolutely yes. Let's keep it in perspective though, and judge these defenders on how many goals they are conceding. We come across as a very spoilt and entitled set of supporters when we go to the extremes that we do just to make a point.
The problem this season has not been the top teams, we have very good record against them. It has been the bottom-10 teams who sit back. Every player plus Ole are responsible for that failure. With Bruno and Pogba it looks like that has been fixed. But to say that this team would suffer against the best teams is simply not based on facts.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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In that situation precisely for the reasons outline above Maguire should have 1. Approached with this body turned at an angle to Stanislaus instead of being flat footed. This would have channeled Stanislas into a position where he would have much less of an opportunity to attempt a dribble.

2. He rushed in and stopped too close. He should be slowing down as he approaches the attacker unless he intends to make a tackle.

Basic.
Who would have thought Stanislas will go for nutmeg. The most basic thing in football is keep switch on & not ball watching. Apart from Maguire, everyone ball watching like if the opposition players aren't in danger area.
 

roseguy64

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There isn’t a problem.

Our problem was the inability to put the football in the net in line with our rivals; it looks like we’ve made steps to address this somewhat.

The defence continues to concede goals in line with our rivals and has largely done so under three successive managers. Sort of like the way we used to concede goals and make defensive errors under Ferguson. It happens. It only becomes a problem when you score less league goals than Bournemouth, which has been the case in previous years.

And no, I’m not suggesting we can’t improve defensively. But we’re really rather good. Every goal we’ve conceded since the resumption of play has been something of an individual error and I’d like to think we’ll cut them out.
This. Barring last season, our defence has held up well in line with our rivals in terms of goals conceded since Fergie. Our problem has been not scoring enough.

This season we're 5th in terms of goals scored. Same last season and the season before. 8th in Mourinho's first season. 10th in LVG's last season and 4th in his first one.

Defensively we're currently third. Last season we were 11th. The season before was 2nd. Same in Mourinho's first. First in LVG's last season and 4th in his first one.

Combining these we've finished TBD, 6th, 2nd, 6th, 5th and 4th.

We've had a top 4 defence barring one season. Our goals output hasn't matched.
 
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Fussmeister

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I am probably the only one but i like the back four we got ( awb, hm, vnl,shaw) .
 

roseguy64

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Very good post, when I say the heading, I thought, is there a problem to begin with? Though I am slightly concerned with the individual errors particularly from DDG.

Lindelof is not bad and hasn't let us down at all this season(at least I cant remember any mistakes?) Only problem I have is that they are too similar as a pairing, both good on the ball but both slow.
Lindelof has made mistake this season and people were calling for Tuanzebe to start. He got outmuscled for one particular goal I remember and that came either before or after another error in another match. In the first half of the season. It's similar to how he started bad last season and why Shaw won POTY. His level was more consistent.
 

roseguy64

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Smalling isn't better than Lindelof and it would be a big step backwards for the kind of football United seems to be building towards , He had his chances it's time to move on .
What is Lindelof better at other than ability with the ball?
 

georgipep

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In that situation precisely for the reasons outline above Maguire should have 1. Approached with this body turned at an angle to Stanislaus instead of being flat footed. This would have channeled Stanislas into a position where he would have much less of an opportunity to attempt a dribble.

2. He rushed in and stopped too close. He should be slowing down as he approaches the attacker unless he intends to make a tackle.

Basic.
I disagree. Both points are looking at the situation in hindsight. As a defender you cannot assume that the attacker will take one action and not the other (he had passing options too). Maguire closed him down to limit his passing angles. He certainly didn't expect him to dare nutmeg him.

Probably nobody expected that. That's why it was spectacular and it worked.

I, personally, am not happy with Wan-Bissaka in this passage of play. He was very reactive and a bit switched off. Went down for a sliding block towards the near post and was eliminated from the equation as a result. Again, this is looking at the situation in hindsight but from all involved I'm far less worried about Maguire's actions than Aaron's.
 

MiracleInMadrid

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I am probably the only one but i like the back four we got ( awb, hm, vnl,shaw) .
Me too. At the very least we need to give them a chance in a period. The way we have played after the corona-break is under very different conditions than earlier under Ole. Our pressing from the front is more cohesive and generally much improved, which makes the role of the defenders different. I think that they can improve under these conditions if given time.

Whether it will be good enough for a title challenge, I am more in doubt about. I don't think Shaw can improve his offensive game enough, and I am a little worried about the lack of speed between Maguire and Lindelöf - especially if we will see a United team pressing higher up the field leaving more space in behind the defence.

But I still like them all. They are honest and hardworking.
 

Kush

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Lindelof can't head the ball, which is a problem for any CB. A massive one in our league. When you add the fact that he is a giant wimp and doesn't like physical players, then you have a recipe for disaster.

Maguire for all his flaws, mainly pace/mobility is solid at fundamentals for a defender. We need to buy a strong/fast CB to compliment him. Lindelof can be a squad player, it's his level.
 

Falcow

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I disagree. Both points are looking at the situation in hindsight. As a defender you cannot assume that the attacker will take one action and not the other (he had passing options too). Maguire closed him down to limit his passing angles. He certainly didn't expect him to dare nutmeg him.

Probably nobody expected that. That's why it was spectacular and it worked.

I, personally, am not happy with Wan-Bissaka in this passage of play. He was very reactive and a bit switched off. Went down for a sliding block towards the near post and was eliminated from the equation as a result. Again, this is looking at the situation in hindsight but from all involved I'm far less worried about Maguire's actions than Aaron's.
I get what you are saying....at least Maguire tried to do the correct thing and made the effort. AWB could have made an attempt to get to the attacker as he nutmegged Maguire, I'm not sure why he didnt.

Not a major issue and he is plenty young enough to improve and learn.

But disagree with you somewhat on Maguirr being nutmegged...he didnt expect it, why not!

Its frustrating at the moment when we concede, there seems to be two or even three individual mistakes in every goal we concede.....the spurs goal there was at least 3 mistakes(4 if you count AWB playing them onside), same with first goal yesterday and then matic and Bailey combined for the pen. Even the Norwich goal.....Romero should have saved it and I think we gave the ball away in the lead up.
 

Falcow

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Lindelof has made mistake this season and people were calling for Tuanzebe to start. He got outmuscled for one particular goal I remember and that came either before or after another error in another match. In the first half of the season. It's similar to how he started bad last season and why Shaw won POTY. His level was more consistent.
Fair enough, I'll take your word for it.
 

Sandikan

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Lindelof can't head the ball, which is a problem for any CB. A massive one in our league. When you add the fact that he is a giant wimp and doesn't like physical players, then you have a recipe for disaster.

Maguire for all his flaws, mainly pace/mobility is solid at fundamentals for a defender. We need to buy a strong/fast CB to compliment him. Lindelof can be a squad player, it's his level.
Yep, even in this bizarre new age where some seem to consider passing the most important characteristic for a defender, this is still England and the ball is still in the air a lot.

Smalling is surely much better than Lindelof, merely for the pace and height.

No-one is asking him to play 30 yard balls, just has to knock it 5 yards to his full back or centre mid.
 

georgipep

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I get what you are saying....at least Maguire tried to do the correct thing and made the effort. AWB could have made an attempt to get to the attacker as he nutmegged Maguire, I'm not sure why he didnt.

Not a major issue and he is plenty young enough to improve and learn.

But disagree with you somewhat on Maguirr being nutmegged...he didnt expect it, why not!

Its frustrating at the moment when we concede, there seems to be two or even three individual mistakes in every goal we concede.....the spurs goal there was at least 3 mistakes(4 if you count AWB playing them onside), same with first goal yesterday and then matic and Bailey combined for the pen. Even the Norwich goal.....Romero should have saved it and I think we gave the ball away in the lead up.
I am also disappointed and frustrated but the majority of goals happen because an opponent made a mistake. In general, football is a game where you try and force the opposition to make a mistake and give you an opening.

Maguire will (hopefully) learn from this. I hope Wan-Bissaka does too.
 

A-man

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Yep, even in this bizarre new age where some seem to consider passing the most important characteristic for a defender, this is still England and the ball is still in the air a lot.

Smalling is surely much better than Lindelof, merely for the pace and height.

No-one is asking him to play 30 yard balls, just has to knock it 5 yards to his full back or centre mid.
Have you even seen Smalling play lately? I have, and he’s been playing at a level well below Lindelof.
 

rollingstoned1

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after having spent considerable money buying Maguire, lindelof and Bailly over a period of 3 years surely we can't be saying we need to go spend another 200mn and replace all of them? This is pretty much doing what we panned Jose for when he wanted a new shiny toy at CB every year. We seem to invite a lot of situations where teams get behind our midfield easily and have a free run at our Cbs. that is never a good recipe for solidity with slow cbs.
 

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The facts, just the facts - a whole season comparison of the top 6 defences suggests there isn't much wrong with ours - we're on a par with second and third and better than fourth - Liverpool's defence has been in a different class for most of the season. Lindelof is a calm, efficient defender - not the best in the world, but more than good enough for our needs.

33 games is statistically significant, this is not a short term impressive run (such as post restart - P4 GA 3 Avge 0.75)

TeamGames/goals concededGoals conceded per match
Liverpool33/250.75
City33/341.03
Leicester33/310.94
Chelsea33/441.33
Utd33/331.00
Wolves33/361.09
 
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freeurmind

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Lindelof is fine. At least he can stay fit. He's not the best defender ever but he does a job.
 

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There’s no “maybe” about it anymore. He isn’t world class but he can do a job, something Maguire clearly can’t right now. We need Lindelof & Bailly starting now, there’s no 2 ways about it.
 

R77

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Tbf to him, I remember watching replays of the Sevilla goals shortly after the game and thinking it's possible he was distracted and caught out because of sh*tting himself over Williams and Maguire, and that the finger wagging "No" to Bruno was him basically saying "look mate, I'm constantly having to babysit these two, you can't pin all that on me".

Not that that suddenly makes him great, but the fact we imploded in a much worse manner once he was benched shows he wasn't necessarily the key issue.
 

Cloud7

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We can have more than one problem at the same time. Maguire is a problem, yes, but so is Lindelof, and he is certainly not part of any solution to the problem.
 

Denis79

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Tbf to him, I remember watching replays of the Sevilla goals shortly after the game and thinking it's possible he was distracted and caught out because of sh*tting himself over Williams and Maguire, and that the finger wagging "No" to Bruno was him basically saying "look mate, I'm constantly having to babysit these two, you can't pin all that on me".

Not that that suddenly makes him great, but the fact we imploded in a much worse manner once he was benched shows he wasn't necessarily the key issue.
We imploded because of awful tactics from Ole, that high line was suicide. Not that the form of our defenders helped but we were never going to win that game with those tactics.
 

norm87cro

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Maguire f... up for England proves f... all in Lindelofs case. He is still very weak for his position, isn't strong in the air and quite frankly isn't that quick for such a small framed CB.
 

Welbeckham

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He is obviously a problem, Maguire or Shaw being terrible recently doesn’t mean that Lindelof, De Gea or AWB should suddenly get a free pass.

What’s next? ”Maybe Phil Jones isn’t that bad after all?”
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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There’s no “maybe” about it anymore. He isn’t world class but he can do a job, something Maguire clearly can’t right now. We need Lindelof & Bailly starting now, there’s no 2 ways about it.
Yeah, we conceded 54 league goals in 18/19 with Lindelof as our regular centre back, why would he be the problem, he wouldn’t be. Maguire being Leicester player in 18/19 has sent some magical curse to our defense which was the reason why we conceded 54 league goals.
 

JJ12

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Maguire being in shit form for a few months means feck all to Lindelof who has been not good enough for 2 years.
 

Untd55

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I did argue last season that Lindelof is only worse in one area than Maguire: height.

Neither of them is actually good enough for Manutd, which is pretty clear from what has been seen from them. They are certainly Premier League standard defenders, but not at the level that we require to challenge for titles.
 

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Maguire succeeded in a Leicester defence that played a much lower defensive line than which we currently employ. Maguire doesn't have significant pace or acceleration, nor does he have any great agility on the turn. It's plain to see for anyone watching that a high line with Maguire (and Lindelof) in it is nigh on suicidal. Well, everyone but Ole, who insists with the high-line experiment.