Maybe Lindelof isn’t the problem...

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I don't think anyone is *the* problem... He's just a problem swimming in a lake of other problems which is situated on Problem Island that sits in the middle of a problematic Ocean.
 

Kostov

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Lindelof is average as feck CB, that's the problem with Lindelof. However good defenses are often consisted of average CBs or full backs, with proper coaching and team understanding, continuity as well. We are absolutely awful at this coaching or building defense thing imo.
 

RashyForPM

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Maguire and Lindeloff are both very good defenders. Just utterly incompatible. Thus they will never make each other look good as a pair. Put them in a 3 with a 3rd defender, or pair them with a different partner and you get to see how good they actually are.
That’s based on nothing but your assumption. There isn’t any evidence to back up your first statement. Maguire was average at Hull, decent but error prone at Leicester and has been a complete waste of money for us. His best performances came in four games, two against Tunisia and Panama, at World Cup 2018, which conned people and inflated his value. As for Lindelof, he has always been average period, even at Benfica. No doubting that. These guys are nowhere near ‘very good defenders’ as you say. And don’t even let me get into their supposed ball-playing abilities. They couldn’t pass a bucket of water.

Put it this way, would you call Dunk, Tarkowski, Matip, Mings, Keane, Dier, Saiss, Lascelles etc very good defenders if they played week in week out for us? I’m sure no, as they are also average defenders. Well, Maguire and Lindelof are at the same level as these guys. No tactic will hide the fact that they are just midtable-level defenders who are not up to the task of being Manchester United’s backbone, serving with the distinction shown by Rio and Vida.

If it were up to me, both would be sold next summer. A possible replacement would be Upamecano at his low release clause from summer 2021 onwards.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I don't think anyone is *the* problem...
.
Yes I wish people would understand this. When someone says Woodward/Ole/Lindelof is a problem they don't mean that the individual mentioned is the only problem and that fixing that would suddenly make us Quadruple winners. Neither does that mean we don't fix one of our many issues.
 
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That’s based on nothing but your assumption. There isn’t any evidence to back up your first statement.
Says a person making brazen assertions based on nothing but his ill informed opinion.

The glaring statistical improvement on goals conceded by United after adding Maguire is plenty of proof he is a good defender.


The fact Lindeloff was rated the best defender in Portugal and hailed by night all of punditry as a top signing for Mourinho is proof a plenty too.


Just like the fact Lindeloff and Maguire are too similar in style, and constantly as a result have issues engineering a proper offside trap as a pair is ample proof of their incompatibility. But don't let that stop you and your brazen assertions......


Maguire was average at Hull, decent but error prone at Leicester and has been a complete waste of money for us.
Again. Nothing but brazen assertions with no basis in fact
.....

His best performances came in four games, two against Tunisia and Panama, at World Cup 2018, which conned people and inflated his value.
This is just laughably foolish a claim.
Maguire got to world cup based on his excellent club form. Club form he continued during and after work cup that convinced United to sign him. His value also has everything to do with the idiocy of Woodward in his transfer dealings. not the player.


As for Lindelof, he has always been average period, even at Benfica. No doubting that.
You clearly haven't a clue about how Lindeloff was rated in Portugal. This conversation is a waste of time.....
 

RashyForPM

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Says a person making brazen assertions based on nothing but his ill informed opinion.

The glaring statistical improvement on goals conceded by United after adding Maguire is plenty of proof he is a good defender.


The fact Lindeloff was rated the best defender in Portugal and hailed by night all of punditry as a top signing for Mourinho is proof a plenty too.


Just like the fact Lindeloff and Maguire are too similar in style, and constantly as a result have issues engineering a proper offside trap as a pair is ample proof of their incompatibility. But don't let that stop you and your brazen assertions......



Again. Nothing but brazen assertions with no basis in fact
.....


This is just laughably foolish a claim.
Maguire got to world cup based on his excellent club form. Club form he continued during and after work cup that convinced United to sign him. His value also has everything to do with the idiocy of Woodward in his transfer dealings. not the player.



You clearly haven't a clue about how Lindeloff was rated in Portugal. This conversation is a waste of time.....
Instead of saying nonsense like ‘brazen assertions’ or ‘haven’t a clue’, dispel my opinion with some facts. Also, I watch the Premier League, and Maguire was nothing more than average at a relegated Hull and decent at Leicester. He got into the England World Cup team because he’s the best of a very average crop of English CB’s. Walker, an RB, has to start in there ffs. Not his ‘excellent club form’. You saying that means I ain’t the one who hasn’t got a clue. You speak as if Maguire got into that England side over stars like Bobby Moore, John Terry, Jack Charlton and Rio Ferdinand because Southgate couldn’t ignore his brilliance.
 

RashyForPM

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:lol: this is completely false. Lindelof was a monster at Benfica, far more highly rated than the recently-departed Ruben Dias.
I meant his performances in the CL and EL. He never pulled up any trees. I couldn’t care less how he played in the Portuguese League unless it was truly sensational like Bruno at Sporting from 2017-2019.

Besides, if he was so clear of Dias, surely Benfica wouldn’t have charged City for him double what they charged us? The market was already inflated to an unbelievable level anyway, albeit that was before the Neymar transfer. I don’t even rate Dias myself, and neither do avid Portuguese football fans like Peyroteo and the Sporting fan on here.
 

SwedishFish

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I meant his performances in the CL and EL. He never pulled up any trees. I couldn’t care less how he played in the Portuguese League unless it was truly sensational like Bruno at Sporting from 2017-2019.

Besides, if he was so clear of Dias, surely Benfica wouldn’t have charged City for him double what they charged us? The market was already inflated to an unbelievable level anyway, albeit that was before the Neymar transfer. I don’t even rate Dias myself, and neither do avid Portuguese football fans like Peyroteo and the Sporting fan on here.
Ruben Dias was club captain and Portuguese. Of course, there's a tax to pay to get him. Let's not forget they did the Joao Felix deal last year too to boost their finances.
 

MattofManchester

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He was very good when Ole first came in, and really impressed me, especially in the CL when we took on PSG and Barca.

But he's regressed dramatically since then.
 

RashyForPM

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Ruben Dias was club captain and Portuguese. Of course, there's a tax to pay to get him. Let's not forget they did the Joao Felix deal last year too to boost their finances.
True of course, but a £35m price gap. That is massive when comparing two players. Felix is uncomparable imo as he’s a young, talented attacker with bags of potential.

Out of interest, as a Swede, what are your honest opinions on Lindelof? I really don’t rate the guy whatsoever unfortunately, although he is our second best CB after Bailly.
 

Nickelodeon

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Anyone who is out of the team suddenly starts looking better.

The number of people who said that Smalling is our best CB increased exponentially as he was about to leave the club. Now with just one game out, Lindelof has started looking better.

The actual situation is that all of Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly are at a similar mediocre level and have bouts of good runs and frequent disasters. Bailly has stayed out because he brings the additional quality of being a crock as well as being average. While Tuanzebe's reputation is growing as he continues to stay out of our team.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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I meant his performances in the CL and EL. He never pulled up any trees. I couldn’t care less how he played in the Portuguese League unless it was truly sensational like Bruno at Sporting from 2017-2019.

Besides, if he was so clear of Dias, surely Benfica wouldn’t have charged City for him double what they charged us? The market was already inflated to an unbelievable level anyway, albeit that was before the Neymar transfer. I don’t even rate Dias myself, and neither do avid Portuguese football fans like Peyroteo and the Sporting fan on here.
:lol: He never played in the EL for Benfica. And some of his most impressive displays came in the CL. You're just digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole here, mate. Just admit you don't watch Liga NOS and don't know what you're talking about so we can all move on.

Re: Dias, very different circumstances given that he was the captain, Portuguese, and not pushing to leave. Benfica would have happily kept him but Man City came in with a ridiculous offer at the 11th hour that they'd have been stupid not to take.
 

RashyForPM

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:lol: He never played in the EL for Benfica. And some of his most impressive displays came in the CL. You're just digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole here, mate. Just admit you don't watch Liga NOS and don't know what you're talking about so we can all move on.

Re: Dias, very different circumstances given that he was the captain, Portuguese, and not pushing to leave. Benfica would have happily kept him but Man City came in with a ridiculous offer at the 11th hour that they'd have been stupid not to take.
I never watch the Portuguese League. Couldn’t care less. About the EL thing, fine, but Lindelof never ever pulled up any trees in the CL, has never done anything for us and was alright at the World Cup. Carragher labelled him out of his depth btw, and that guy knows a thing or two about centre backs.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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I never watch the Portuguese League. Couldn’t care less. About the EL thing, fine, but Lindelof never ever pulled up any trees in the CL, has never done anything for us and was alright at the World Cup. Carragher labelled him out of his depth btw, and that guy knows a thing or two about centre backs.
I like how you're just continuing to make assertions after having been shown to have no clue what you're talking about. Nice appeal to authority too re: Carragher; I'd be surprised if he watched even a single minute of Lindelof before his transfer to Man United.
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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None of our CBs are good enough at the end of the day

Maguire - slow (might be OK alongside a quick partner)
Bailly - a liability, too rash
Lindelof - cowardly, weak
Jones - no worse than Bailly / Lindelof but can’t stay fit
Rojo - see Bailly
Tuanzebe - looked good in his first couple of games but that was a long time ago and he hasn’t kicked on
Mengi - too raw

P.S. I never rated Smalling particularly but he had a good season in Serie A by all accounts and I’m at the point where I would have preferred him to the above options, but he was deemed surplus to requirements.
 

Catania

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True of course, but a £35m price gap. That is massive when comparing two players. Felix is uncomparable imo as he’s a young, talented attacker with bags of potential.

Out of interest, as a Swede, what are your honest opinions on Lindelof? I really don’t rate the guy whatsoever unfortunately, although he is our second best CB after Bailly.
As another Swede, my view on Lindelöf is that he reads the game very well.
More of a player that defend and work as a team, trying to minimize the options for the attacker and make them choose a less appealing option.
If he could learn when to be more aggressive in his defending and bulk up some, I think he could be a real good defender.
Atm he irritates me when he is to passive, when aggression is needed.

Also I see Maguire as totally opposite player.
Strong and aggressive in his defending but reads the game very bad and have no clue how to force the attacker to make bad options.
Always taking a step up to attack the ball, good when he wins the ball, leaving a mess in the defense when he doesn't.
 

RashyForPM

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I like how you're just continuing to make assertions after having been shown to have no clue what you're talking about. Nice appeal to authority too re: Carragher; I'd be surprised if he watched even a single minute of Lindelof before his transfer to Man United.
Assertions? I watch and have watched every single fecking United game since Lindelof came, every World Cup 2018 game and many Champions League games, including some of Benfica’s in 2016-17, in which they conceded 10 in the group stages that season. How’s that for an assertion?
 

redshaw

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Only game we've looked unfazed was against Brighton cup game with Lindelof Bailly and Dalot. Brighton didn't start with their best but they did bring them on and it was a total contrast to the league game. With Maguire and AWB we've been ripped apart against Palace, Brighton and Spurs in the league.

When I saw Bailly and Maguire I knew Spurs would take us to the cleaners. Lindelof is our only relatively steady CB and was a big mistake by Ole.

Says a person making brazen assertions based on nothing but his ill informed opinion.

The glaring statistical improvement on goals conceded by United after adding Maguire is plenty of proof he is a good defender.


The fact Lindeloff was rated the best defender in Portugal and hailed by night all of punditry as a top signing for Mourinho is proof a plenty too.


Just like the fact Lindeloff and Maguire are too similar in style, and constantly as a result have issues engineering a proper offside trap as a pair is ample proof of their incompatibility. But don't let that stop you and your brazen assertions......



Again. Nothing but brazen assertions with no basis in fact
.....


This is just laughably foolish a claim.
Maguire got to world cup based on his excellent club form. Club form he continued during and after work cup that convinced United to sign him. His value also has everything to do with the idiocy of Woodward in his transfer dealings. not the player.



You clearly haven't a clue about how Lindeloff was rated in Portugal. This conversation is a waste of time.....
Lindelof or Lindelöf
 

fezzerUTD

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Lindelof is a wet flannel that cant head the ball. If he was around in the 90's you could go through him in the first 30 seconds and take him out of the game.

He would be a better RB for me.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Assertions? I watch and have watched every single fecking United game since Lindelof came, every World Cup 2018 game and many Champions League games, including some of Benfica’s in 2016-17, in which they conceded 10 in the group stages that season. How’s that for an assertion?
Wow, I am very impressed that you knew off the top of your head that Benfica conceded 10 goals in the group stage in 16/17!! This proves that you are definitely right with your baseless assertions that Lindelof was mediocre at Benfica, since you definitely didn't just google it.
 

JPB

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He's absolutely fecking garbage. He's a defender who can't fecking defend. The best thing about him is when he just ignores balls that he could have headed away. He's done the same stupid mistake about 100 times.
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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He's absolutely fecking garbage. He's a defender who can't fecking defend. The best thing about him is when he just ignores balls that he could have headed away. He's done the same stupid mistake about 100 times.
I don’t think he likes heading. Or tackling.
 

devilish

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I’m just saying... people love to shit on Lindelof, and a lot of people have been calling for Maguire/Bailly to start, well Lindelof hasn’t put a foot wrong & these two had a disasterclass today. Harry has been completely embarrassed twice now in 4 games.

I’m not shitting on Harry, but our fans need to be more consistent. Keep the same energy you have for Lindelof when it’s Maguire or Bailly, because I’m seeing blatant agendas against Victor at the moment.

Our best CB on current form. I pray he’s fit because the thought of Bailly terrifies me.
The trouble is this

----------------DDG---------------
--------Lindelof------Maguire---
---------------Matic------------

Have you noticed the problem here? This is probably the slowest central defensive core in living football history. Its also supported by a goalkeeper who wouldn't leave the line even if the goalposts are on fire. That means that a fast striker would cause absolute havoc in there especially if the opponents utilise a quick counter.
 

Fosu-Mens

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The trouble is this

----------------DDG---------------
--------Lindelof------Maguire---
---------------Matic------------

Have you noticed the problem here? This is probably the slowest central defensive core in living football history. Its also supported by a goalkeeper who wouldn't leave the line even if the goalposts are on fire. That means that a fast striker would cause absolute havoc in there especially if the opponents utilise a quick counter.
That is part of the problem.
The main footballing problem is that there is a lack of overlap between how we want to play (assumed) with the abilities of the players we have available and with what type of football that is relevant in the current environment.

We either want to dominate games or are attempting to dominate games by attacking with a high number of players and a high line. What is so funny is that we have many players that make high-risk actions in attack (trying to dribble, make a pass/cross with a low success rate, shooting from bad positions) or is bad on the ball/passing that makes us have a high turnover rate. Adding this with slow/weak and isolated central defenders, a CDM that is slow and another that does not defend and a GK that never leaves his line... We are asking for trouble. It is basically like we are set up to give the opposition counter attacking opportunities.

Should also be noted that when we are not counter-attacked against, we are unable to press as a team making us easy to keep possession against. Our best bet in any game is to park the bus and counter-attack. If the other team is parking their bus, we should only attack with 4/5 players due to our fullbacks (not Telles) are incompetent on the ball/in the final third and our central defenders needs protection. And we are unable to keep possession and progress the ball without making high risk action/passing.
 

ROFLUTION

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Maguire and Lindeloff are both very good defenders. Just utterly incompatible. Thus they will never make each other look good as a pair. Put them in a 3 with a 3rd defender, or pair them with a different partner and you get to see how good they actually are.
I really only think they'd come good/decent with some superb world class CB. And who wouldn't?

So, which players is it you think that will complement these two?

On paper, I'd say these two should compliment each other fairly well.
 

Murray3007

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there both simply not good enough for what we want to achieve, from just the premiership era how far down the list would any the current CB's be if placing them on a list of united CB's, not even including the great ones we had but really even the likes of Brown, Johnson, Silvestre, Berg are better then the current ones,
 

devilish

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That is part of the problem.
The main footballing problem is that there is a lack of overlap between how we want to play (assumed) with the abilities of the players we have available and with what type of football that is relevant in the current environment.

We either want to dominate games or are attempting to dominate games by attacking with a high number of players and a high line. What is so funny is that we have many players that make high-risk actions in attack (trying to dribble, make a pass/cross with a low success rate, shooting from bad positions) or is bad on the ball/passing that makes us have a high turnover rate. Adding this with slow/weak and isolated central defenders, a CDM that is slow and another that does not defend and a GK that never leaves his line... We are asking for trouble. It is basically like we are set up to give the opposition counter attacking opportunities.

Should also be noted that when we are not counter-attacked against, we are unable to press as a team making us easy to keep possession against. Our best bet in any game is to park the bus and counter-attack. If the other team is parking their bus, we should only attack with 4/5 players due to our fullbacks (not Telles) are incompetent on the ball/in the final third and our central defenders needs protection. And we are unable to keep possession and progress the ball without making high risk action/passing.
I agree that its part of the problem. United should understand by now that most clubs are quite happy to get 1 point against us. That means that a deep defensive line/counter attack football would rarely work for us. Hence why we need to be shrewd enough not to buy players who excel in that sort of game. Maguire for example is fantastic in a deep line. He's strong, he's good in air and he's got decent positioning. Unfortunately he'll struggle in a high line because he lack pace. Same can be said about AWB. His superb defensive skills makes him the perfect anti winger/inside forward. He's perfect for the likes of Palace who need to keep a tight defence. Unfortunately he offers nothing going forward

Things are set to get worse with Telles. The Brazilian is the typical Brazilian attacking wingback. He's devastating going forward but will leave acres of space behind. Whose going to cover for that? Maguire? Lindelof? Matic?
 

SwedishFish

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True of course, but a £35m price gap. That is massive when comparing two players. Felix is uncomparable imo as he’s a young, talented attacker with bags of potential.

Out of interest, as a Swede, what are your honest opinions on Lindelof? I really don’t rate the guy whatsoever unfortunately, although he is our second best CB after Bailly.
I think he's very inconsistent and weak aerially. In the National Team, he used to get bailed out by the senior leader Granqvist but it's fairly evident that we didn't spend 85 million on a leader in defense to team up with him.

In some games, he's bailed out United (let's not forget the Leicester game) and I think he's a good option to have at the club but the competition for starting spots at CB is very poor when he basically walks into the lineup every week.

I'd like to see a Upamecano or similar added to what we have and get rid of Bailly or Tuanzebe possibly to create a more competitive environment I honestly believe it would raise their game.
 

Shark

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Had a dream last night that we played Liverpool next and Bailly got a red card a minute into the game. So yeah I guess I'm up for giving Lindelof another shot.
 

Nikelesh Reddy

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I’m just saying... people love to shit on Lindelof, and a lot of people have been calling for Maguire/Bailly to start, well Lindelof hasn’t put a foot wrong & these two had a disasterclass today. Harry has been completely embarrassed twice now in 4 games.

I’m not shitting on Harry, but our fans need to be more consistent. Keep the same energy you have for Lindelof when it’s Maguire or Bailly, because I’m seeing blatant agendas against Victor at the moment.

Our best CB on current form. I pray he’s fit because the thought of Bailly terrifies me.
Maguire is as much a part of the problem as Lindelof.In my view both Lindelof and Maguire are not good enough to play in a top top team....While Lindelof was getting a lot of stick last season,Maguires under par performances were going under the radar...until now obviously.Bailly was a disgrace against Tottenham....We made a huge blunder by not signing a new CB and I think we”ll have to pay a heavy price for that now...
 

Ekeke

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Maguire is as much a part of the problem as Lindelof.In my view both Lindelof and Maguire are not good enough to play in a top top team....While Lindelof was getting a lot of stick last season,Maguires under par performances were going under the radar...until now obviously.Bailly was a disgrace against Tottenham....We made a huge blunder by not signing a new CB and I think we”ll have to pay a heavy price for that now...
Maguire played well enough in the premier league for us to want to sign him. He wasnt as good as made out for England in a back 3 or for Leicester. But he was good enough to be considered for a transfer. Lindelof hasnt done that. We took a chance on him coming over from Portugal and doing well in the premier league. He hasnt. So he's more of the problem for sure