Maybe Lindelof isn’t the problem...

[OrcaFat]

Lindelöf is not a problem, he’s very good. Harry is top class. If you have to keep one and replace the other, you keep Harry. But Harry lacks mobility. This is a deficiency that, contrary to popular belief, can be improved with the right conditioning, but Harry’s baseline is so low, he’s never going to be Des Walker sharp. What Rio said is absolutely right, he needs express pace beside him. Lindelöf is a good player but not to play with Harry. I personally think Harry is excellent, despite his shortcomings, and the defence should be built around him. Which means The Bench for Lindy.

 

[golden_blunder]

I rewatched this last night in motd and I thought maguire was unlucky. He got done by a great nutmeg. Prior to that he was the one challenging for the header and running to block.
DeGea shouldn’t be beaten at his near post like that imho

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He was at fault but others were at fault too. Stanlisis nutmegged him too easily. What game were you watching

That's pretty much nutmeg in this world, always looks easy but actually good skill from him. If you watch it again Stanlisis had time to stop and think what he wanted to do while Maguire run towards the ball when he got nutmegged, what do you expect him to do? Running with closing his leg? Don't remember if it's even possible.

My coach didn't tell me not to get nutmegged. I know my coach told me not to be ball watching.

 

[Slysi17]

That's pretty much nutmeg in this world, always looks easy but actually good skill from him. If you watch it again Stanlisis had time to stop and think what he wanted to do while Maguire run towards the ball when he got nutmegged, what do you expect him to do? Running with closing his leg? Don't remember if it's even possible.

My coach didn't tell me not to get nutmegged. I know my coach told me not to be ball watching.

Yeah true but Maguire was at fault there too. It's still a mistake. But to counter that others were at fault too. Bit unfair to just blame one player.

 

[MUFromLTU]

I rewatched this last night in motd and I thought maguire was unlucky. He got done by a great nutmeg. Prior to that he was the one challenging for the header and running to block.
DeGea shouldn’t be beaten at his near post like that imho

My thoughts too, that was just an ideally performed nutmeg on a moving player. Obviously De Gea didn't expect that to happen too, and it's hard to say that he should have expected a player to be nutmegged in the box. Overall just a perfectly executed attacking move.

One issue with Maguire is that when he is caught off guard, he is very slow to turn and it's the 2nd goal that this issue leads to since the restart. However, just because this one mistake you can't overlook the number of blocks and interceptions he makes for us every match day, he always picks out the main striker and usually nullifies their threat.

Not an ideal defender, however for me still top class and I wouldn't worry too much about improving this position with transfers at the moment.

 

[Slysi17]

Anyway it's his first season so only fair to give him another season. But seriously needs to improve next season to change my mind. Has made defensive errors which has cost us goals. Think he would get found out by elite champions league level clubs.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Yeah true but Maguire was at fault there too. It's still a mistake. But to counter that others were at fault too. Bit unfair to just blame one player.

Hard to call it as mistake to me. Rather, it's a good skill, he was caught while he was moving towards the ball. If Maguire decided not to go towards the ball and let Stanlisis to have a shot and goal, the nutmeg won't happen and people won't even make big deal out of it.

 

[andersj]

I’m just saying... people love to shit on Lindelof, and a lot of people have been calling for Maguire/Bailly to start, well Lindelof hasn’t put a foot wrong & these two had a disasterclass today. Harry has been completely embarrassed twice now in 4 games.

I’m not shitting on Harry, but our fans need to be more consistent. Keep the same energy you have for Lindelof when it’s Maguire or Bailly, because I’m seeing blatant agendas against Victor at the moment.

Our best CB on current form. I pray he’s fit because the thought of Bailly terrifies me.

I think the problem is between Lindelof, Maguire and Matic, and how we want to play. All of them are very good players.

But if you play a very good team you struggle to dominate with three players in the central area of the pitch with poor pace/mobility. One DM with more pace and mobility than Matic would work wonders. Zakaria is a very good option. There is a few question marks over his ability on the ball (passing), but off the ball he ticks all the boxes.

If you also are able to add a phycial central defender with pace and calm on the ball, you are there. But it will not be easy to find a defender better than Lindelof or Maguire. Both are at peak age. Look at Bailly. He has a lot of the attributes we need. But he is so reactive and nonchalant. Even though he got the pace Lindelof/Maguire lack it looks very doubtfull that he will ever be a better option than either.

 

[Bestietom]

I think a young left footed CB like Badiashile could be the one for us...

 

[RUCK4444]

I still think he’s more of a liability than Maguire, Harry was megged yesterday, it happens.

Harry needs that foil of a quicker athletic CB. Im still positive Smalling would be a better partner for Harry.

Lindelof isn't as bad as some make out but he has spells that are close to being that bad and a lot worse than we’ve seen from Maguire since the restart. Bailly is considerably worse.

That still leaves room for a top quality young, quick CB, imo. Upemecano or somebody of that ilk.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Lindelof and Bailly should be squad players, at best!

 

[gajender]

I still think he’s more of a liability than Maguire, Harry was megged yesterday, it happens.

Harry needs that foil of a quicker athletic CB. Im still positive Smalling would be a better partner for Harry.

Lindelof isn't as bad as some make out but he has spells that are close to being that bad and a lot worse than we’ve seen from Maguire since the restart. Bailly is considerably worse.

That still leaves room for a top quality young, quick CB, imo. Upemecano or somebody of that ilk.

Smalling isn't better than Lindelof and it would be a big step backwards for the kind of football United seems to be building towards , He had his chances it's time to move on .

 

[RUCK4444]

Smalling isn't better than Lindelof and it would be a big step backwards for the kind of football United seems to be building towards , He had his chances it's time to move on .

Yeah I hear this a lot, but what is it that Lindelof brings to this United team that Smalling couldn’t?

If it’s a ‘don’t go back’ attitude then ok I can appreciate that to an extent but if we can bring him back for nothing and funnel our entire funds on Sancho and a DM then that would be very clever business.

If it’s Lindelof’s progressive forward passing that we were promised then I disagree as we’ve seen next to none of that from him, far more of that from Harry.

 

[Keefy18]

Vic got off because of back problems.. You should know that before you get "disappointed" in Ole.

Pointed out to me quite a bit since... I didn't hear the post match interview.

As I mentioned in one of the comments if he was injured fair enough.

 

[Kostov]

It would not even happen if Maguire did not back into him to go for a ball he could not win. Even then, I'd say the way AWB threw himself to the ground and stayed down when Stanislas got the ball was the main enabler for the goal, leaving Maguire alone while Lindelöf covered the area in front of goal.

Maguire was clearly not reaching that high ball and yeah we can fault him for that but he isn’t at fault for Lindelöf failing to clear the ball with the header. I am not excusing Maguire not DDG as well, but it was clearly a collective feck up. Maguire getting nutmeged clearly was the cherry on the top, but it was not a one man’s fault.

 

[UpWithRivers]

There is some crazy sht on this thread! Maguire and Lindelof are both class CB's. Maguire is better but not by much. Neither and Van Dijk level but then again who is? Total agree with the sentiment of this thread. I have a soft spot for Lindelof. I wrote in another thread he reminds me of Irwin. Irwin was better but its the quiet unassuming get the job done way they go about defending. Lindelof is always a 7. Rarely and 8, 9 or 10 and rarely lower. He is clever, reads the game and his passing is really good. He doesnt get the love that he deserves because he is quiet and unassuming. An example - Against Brighton Maguire was given plaudits for the third goal for a great headed clearance that started it. But no one mentioned Lindelofs involvement in the first. He went wide on the right dragging the defenders and giving WB and Greenwood the space.
Against Bournemouth they were targeting him and at the begging he was struggling against King. Thats his weakness they say. Big strong attacker. But as the game went on he stood off him a touch and adjusted and more or less had him for the rest of the game. There was even one point where there was a 1 on 1 foot race where you think he would be done but he won the ball.
The issue is not Maguire or Lindelof. The issue is lack of pace between them if we want to be the very best. But I dont think that player should be a replacement for either. Just like Sancho should t replace Greenwood, Rashford or Martial. They should rotate and compliment eachother. A CB with different qualities. Pace, Good in the air and good reading of the game and injury free. No idea who that could be cos we arnt getting Koulibally.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I rewatched this last night in motd and I thought maguire was unlucky. He got done by a great nutmeg. Prior to that he was the one challenging for the header and running to block.
DeGea shouldn’t be beaten at his near post like that imho

For me it wasnt so much that he got nutmeged. It happens in football. Its his recovery. Like at Bergwin at Spurs. His turning circle is like that of an oil tanker and once they are passed him it takes him ages to recover. On a side note after wathcing it again to be fair to De Gea that ball was pelted at him from about 2 yards. It was impossible to actually stick out an arm and I think it just went in the one gap it could possible have gone. A bit unlucky.

 

[Devil may care]

Even if he wasn’t — he’s not our captain and worth £80m.

He’ll be replaced first.

That's the reality of it, we've invested a lot in Maguire and are trying to sell him as a leader and most of us aknowledged when we bought him hat he had a couple of big weaknesses in his game and that we didn't have an ideal partner for him unless Bailly or Axel stepped up.

 

[ReddBalls]

it was not a one man’s fault.

On that point we certainly can agree.

 

[POF]

Lindelof is certainly not "the problem" but he is "a problem". It frustrates me how passive he is. He's beaten in the air regularly but what frustrates me most with him is how easily forwards can run the channel against him.

Wan Bissaka has played a far more offensive role of late and any ball down that channel behind him will be won with ease by any forward with a bit of pace or strength.

I know he'll never be a Stam but that's the type of defender United need if they're going to play that way and leave the centre backs exposed. They need defenders who can dominate physically (power and pace) to win the ball back and keep pressure on.

His first instinct is to back off towards his box to slow the attack but it allows the opposition such an easy out.

 

[elmo]

Except that he makes more mistakes, is slower, has no acceleration (not that Lindelof has much, but Maguire is slower than evolution), gets dribbled, gets nutmegged, and takes one hour to pass the ball.

He is better in the air than Lindelof though, I grant you that.

Before the break, Macguire was comfortably ahead and he covered for Lindelof's mistakes when he was the last man back.

Now Ole's trying to make us play further upfront and shit happens when the defence gets caught. Lindelof's too slow to make up for Macguire's mistakes and that's not what you want in a centre back partnership.

At the highest level, Lindelof's just not good enough to cut it for a team that wants to win a league title because he just doesn't have any areas which he stands out at.

 

[The Original]

That's pretty much nutmeg in this world, always looks easy but actually good skill from him. If you watch it again Stanlisis had time to stop and think what he wanted to do while Maguire run towards the ball when he got nutmegged, what do you expect him to do? Running with closing his leg? Don't remember if it's even possible.

My coach didn't tell me not to get nutmegged. I know my coach told me not to be ball watching.

In that situation precisely for the reasons outline above Maguire should have 1. Approached with this body turned at an angle to Stanislaus instead of being flat footed. This would have channeled Stanislas into a position where he would have much less of an opportunity to attempt a dribble.

2. He rushed in and stopped too close. He should be slowing down as he approaches the attacker unless he intends to make a tackle.

Basic.

 

[Wal2Fra]

I think Ole said something about him having a dodgy back today? Not sure if I heard it correctly. He was clearly being targeted but I thought he dealt with it ok in the first half

He got taken off because of a bad back from carrying the 80m slabhead next to him since the comeback from the virus.

Lindelof isn't anything special, he is average at everything (except in the air where he is actually pretty weak) and can easily be upgraded but he is also the best option as a partner for captain Harry that we have, so will start until the end of the season if fit.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Lindelof is weirdly hated here for absolutely no reason. I'm not saying he's top class. He has his faults but he doesn't get credit even when he plays well. Defend well then Maguire gets all credit. Defend poor than it's because Lindelof is crap and Maguire needs another partner.

This is my point. Since “project restart” Maguire has made two costly errors & the majority of our fans response to this has been “drop Lindelof” I just don’t think it’s particularly fair.

Do I think Lindelof is a world class centre half? No, but I don’t think Maguire is either. I’m not saying drop Maguire I’m just saying let’s be more consistent when players. We see it on here with Matic & Pogba being downplayed too. I feel like our fans just cherry pick sometimes because they just dislike certain players. They all play for United, we shouldn’t dislike any unless they outright disrespect the club.

 

[POF]

This is my point. Since “project restart” Maguire has made two costly errors & the majority of our fans response to this has been “drop Lindelof” I just don’t think it’s particularly fair.

Do I think Lindelof is a world class centre half? No, but I don’t think Maguire is either. I’m not saying drop Maguire I’m just saying let’s be more consistent when players. We see it on here with Matic & Pogba being downplayed too. I feel like our fans just cherry pick sometimes because they just dislike certain players. They all play for United, we shouldn’t dislike any unless they outright disrespect the club.

You are correct and it is unfair on Lindelof. But Maguire is the captain and adds a lot more to the team than just his defensive ability (just as well). He's not going anywhere.

So, it's really important to find a partner that complements him. Lindelof is not his ideal partner. His lack of speed makes them a really pedestrian partnership. Saying that, of the defenders currently available, he seems to be the best option.

 

[Red00012]

He went for a 50/50 ball in the 1st half and King just eases him off It .
don’t rate him never rated him .
Time to see what Bailly Is made of

 

[Adnan]

Wtf has mourinho got to do with anything.

if you watched the match you would see every attack came down the channel between Lindelöf and AWB. Once were 2-1 up I’m saying AWB should have been more cautious, they had zero threat apart from that.

Lindelöf was unable to cope with king pulling him into the channels (I don’t blame him for that) but hence why ole made the change. Bailly is a lot faster and more proactive and they didn’t get in behind us once in the 2nd half in a similar fashion.

hopefully You now

That ball in between the channel to King was a clear ploy to target Lindelof due to AWB pushing up. And King got to the ball first every time. Against quality opposition we will get punished.

 

[roonster09]

That ball in between the channel to King was a clear ploy to target Lindelof due to AWB pushing up. And King got to the ball first every time. Against quality opposition we will get punished.

Yeah, first half it happened few times and King was very comfortable in getting the ball and pushing the defence deeper.

I thought bringing on Bailly was good decision (apparently it's because of injury) as he dealt with pace well, shame about his brain-dead handball though.

 

[bond19821982]

That ball in between the channel to King was a clear ploy to target Lindelof due to AWB pushing up. And King got to the ball first every time. Against quality opposition we will get punished.

Exactly, people are way too missing this point. Maguire or Lindelof just doesn't have the pace to cover the channels . It's a disaster for recipe. We wouldn't be this open against the big 6 but against a team like Newcastle or Palace,Zaha or S.Maxim can create havoc.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Lindelöf is not a problem, he’s very good. Harry is top class. If you have to keep one and replace the other, you keep Harry. But Harry lacks mobility. This is a deficiency that, contrary to popular belief, can be improved with the right conditioning, but Harry’s baseline is so low, he’s never going to be Des Walker sharp. What Rio said is absolutely right, he needs express pace beside him. Lindelöf is a good player but not to play with Harry. I personally think Harry is excellent, despite his shortcomings, and the defence should be built around him. Which means The Bench for Lindy.

Maguire is good enough as long as he is not isolated or in situations where there is space or against agile and technical players (Lacazette goal). Weaker teams are less likely to be able to take advantage of these issues, but the top teams will.
Getting a partner with "express pace/mobility" will not be able to protect Maguire in matches where we play against top teams, the only thing that will protect him then is playing compact and low block.

In the long run, both our starting centrebacks have deficiencies that would impact how we can play against the top teams. They should both be replaced or improved upon over the 3 seasons.

 

[A-man]

That ball in between the channel to King was a clear ploy to target Lindelof due to AWB pushing up. And King got to the ball first every time. Against quality opposition we will get punished.

Can’t say those balls created anything really. Lindelof got him every time but you make it sound like they scored 2-3 goals because Lindelof was too slow. Without looking at the match again, I can remember three long balls that went down along the sideline behind AWB.
The first Lindelof stalled the attack until the rest of the defence were back in position.
The second Lindelof also stalled the attack until everybody was back and then he blocked the shot.
The third Lindelof slide tackled the ball out over the line.
Remember, as last man he does not only cover for AWB but often also for Maguire. It’s a big area.

And what is this talk about quality opposition? They have faced all top teams in PL with good results. Can’t say he was punished really.

 

[Adnan]

@Cassidy I agree with you, and below are my thoughts on our CBs and the problem we will have of transitioning from a team that has been prioritizing defensive stability rather than offensive gain.

Ole played a high press for several years at Molde to good success and understanding the managers play style is key to understanding the issues we will face with two CBs who are not adept at dealing with fast transitions in defensive transition playing in a team that has sacrificed defensive stability for offensive gain.

We have been playing a system for many years now that catered to our backline from Van Gaal to Mourinho to Solskjaer that had us defending in numbers with midfielders, fullbacks all helping the CBs. We were playing like how Sean Dyche sets up at Burnley but with superior players. Our good defensive record isn't a testament to our CBs but rather the collective effort in a setup that has prioritised defensive stability over offensive gain.

Now Solskjaer has almost got his attack to a level that he probably feels he can play the high press to a good level against the so called cannon fodder. But that also means Lindelof and Maguire won't have the protection from the likes of Wan Bissaka and Shaw and will have to defend in isolation with help from a DM (Matic) who is also weak in defensive transition in a high risk approach. And it will be this approach that will filter out the weak IMO.

We can't compare ourselves to City or Liverpool defensively because both those teams play a style that puts their CBs in high risk situations due to their high risk front foot approach. Liverpool's CBs defend from near the half way line at times and have the defensive and physical capabilities to do that and it allows their attack to throw caution to the wind. They also have midfielders who are far superior to Matic in defensive transition which is also a big advantage.

What we need is two players who will give us defensive balance in defensive transition in such a aggressive high risk approach. A DM with defensive nous and the physical capabilities along with a CB who has the ability to play in a high press. There's many options out there but I'd personally like to see Zakaria and Konate targeted in the window because both excell in the high press under Marco Rose and Julien Nagelsmann.

 

[Nickelodeon]

I’m sorry but we have to stop nitpicking on every small incident. Whether they’re any good or not is easily evaluated over the course of the season. If there’s an accumulation of incidents, it will be visible clearly.

The problem in today’s day and age is that the football pundits form opinions first and then try to justify them using facts rather than the other way around. I’m quite sure that if we were to run into a bad patch of form, the automatic reaction would be that Matic is too slow and Lindelof is not good or De Gea is past it. Even if they’re the best performers in the team.

If Lindelof had made those mistakes instead of Maguire, he would’ve been crucified. However, that shouldn’t take away the fact that Maguire has taken a lot of initiative and actually played a big part in overall improvement of our defence. Lindelof himself has shown excellent reading of the game throughout our good run.

It’s just the entire FIFA culture where people view Lindelof as an 81 overall player and immediately want him to be replaced with an 85+ one. An objective view of the performance of any player is a thing of the past.

 

[A-man]

I don’t understand people who write stuff like “we will be punished against better teams”. I could have missed a match or two but here are the results against the best teams in PL where Lindelof and Maguire both started.

Wins
Chelsea 4-0
Leicester 1-0
Chelsea 2-1
City 2-1
City 1-0
City 2-0

Draws
Liverpool 1-1


Losses
Liverpool 0-2

13-5

 

[Bilbo]

You're right A-man, and there definitely needs to be a little perspective applied here, because its very easy to just reach the conclusion that the cafe always needs something to moan about.

You posted the record in big games. Those are champions league level opponents and the defence have not embarrassed themselves. Quite the contrary in fact.

Also the fact that we are currently enjoying a 16 match unbeaten run during which we have conceded the grand total of 6 goals, and of those 6 goals one was a bad error from De Gea against Everton and another was the farcical penalty conceded yesterday. Neither of those goals can be used as evidence of a dodgy defence, so let's call in 4 goals in 16 games.

Just want to repeat that. 4 goals in 16 games.

Its not a statistic that anyone would ever look and reach the conclusion that the defence needs an overhaul, is it?

Thats the problem with the cafe these days. Is there a better centre back than Lindelof in the world that we could buy? Absolutely yes. Should we always be looking to improve the team? Absolutely yes. Let's keep it in perspective though, and judge these defenders on how many goals they are conceding. We come across as a very spoilt and entitled set of supporters when we go to the extremes that we do just to make a point.

 

[Infra-red]

Lindeof isn't the problem - the problem is the Lindelof-Maguire partnership. Neither Lindelof nor Maguire are quick enough to cover for each others mistakes. Their vulnerability to opposition runs into the channels, also leaves us open counter attacks if we play a high line. Lindelof is also weak in the air.

The solution is to buy a quick CB with great 1v1 skills and strong aerial ability. This player could successfully partner either Maguire or Lindelof. If they are left-footed and comfortable being drawn into wide areas to cover for Shaw/Williams/new attacking LB, all the better.

 

[ReddBalls]

Lindeof isn't the problem - the problem is the Lindelof-Maguire partnership. Neither Lindelof nor Maguire are quick enough to cover for each others mistakes. Their vulnerability to opposition runs into the channels, also leaves us open counter attacks if we play a high line. Lindelof is also weak in the air.

The solution is to buy a quick CB with great 1v1 skills and strong aerial ability. This player could successfully partner either Maguire or Lindelof. If they are left-footed and comfortable being drawn into wide areas to cover for Shaw/Williams/new attacking LB, all the better.

If 11 clean sheets and 6 goals shipped in 16 games is a problem, I like having problems.

 

[Dike_Manc]

I completely disagree. Players making mistakes on the ball will happen especially when trying to play out from the back but it is really frustrating having a defender being beaten for pace and outmuscled constantly. That means he will always give the opposition a chance in a game and that's not what we want. Squad player at best. Always was.

 

[Raven]

I think Lindelof has had the better season, really unconvinced by Maguire when he's one on one, seems like he'll be skinned every time. Saying that, I like Harry and think he's had a decent season but I would say he's definitely say he needs to improve.

 

[alexthelion]

Lindelof is actually better than Maguire. Both has their own short comings but Lindelof would just edge over Maguire. This is coming from someone who actually thinks Lindelof should be replaced.

Should have signed Dunk instead of Maguire last year and upgraded Lindelof this year. Or wait for the right player. Maguire has been a disaster for 80m.

I seriously question whether you actually watch our amtches because this is so far from the truth it's unbelievable.