You say that, but McTominay jogs back a lot when he really should be helping the defense more.
McFred as a midfield duo heading into 2022/23 season
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
They do not always give their all at all. McTominay certainly doesn't. And he is not good without the ball either. If he gave his all, and was good without the ball, he'd track runners for a start, and also be able to tackle and position himself well. Yet he can do none of these. Contrary to the insinuation, these players are not good defensively. Do you not watch us? They are played through, passed around, every single fecking week, by just about any team. Mark my words, they will be passed around by Brentford on Saturday too.
None of what you said above is true, except the part that City have talented midfielders. As for 'Ten Hag's style of football' that I have read so much about over recent months - Ten Hag's style of football is the style of football played by Ten Hag. His type of player is the type of player played by Ten Hag. And presently, what he has shown me is that this is Scott McTominay, Fred, Bruno, Rashford and co. He hasn't prioritised replacing them at all, he seems to have only drawn a line over AWB from our first teamers, which can only mean that he does not see the others the same as he sees AWB. He has 3 weeks to show otherwise, and if not, nobody can see that he doesn't have his type of players. He's just had a 3 month window, one in which, according to reports - he has turned down interest in Maguire and McTominay, and possibly been complicit in extending Bruno's deal. He has, until this morning, pursued only one central midfielder. He's spent £70m on defenders when the players there are far more competent than the ones he has in his midfield. Unless of course, he doesn't think so. All of this shows that he doesn't see what he has as unacceptable at all, and must therefore be judged on what he does with them. You and I both know that will be the square root of feck all, and if this is his midfield when the window closes, then he must lie in the bed he made.
Regarding Garner, it'd have been the perfect time to give him his debut. First game of the season at home. Between a tried and guaranteed failure of a duo and something different (including starting one of Fred/McT with another player), I don't think the choice should be hard.
Like you said losing 6 of the last 9 + the performances should have been more than enough to bin this duo for ever. I swear I'm lost for words. Not that any other formation would automatically be better but at least try something
De Gea had more passes than McTominay in midfield, and Mctominay only had a 66% pass accuracy (from a guy who never attempts adventurous passes). His performance was the biggest reason for the disaster yesterday. He was horrific.
I hope it's not that because otherwise we will hamper ourselves already after matchday 1
If you're going to quote me, then at least be accurate with it. I said that the two are better off the ball than on it. Am I wrong?
You talk about being passed around, but the same thing has happened for years. This isn't a two-person problem. Encase you noticed, there are 8 other outfield players and it all starts from the front. This is a structural problem and has been for years, which is something that ten Hag will be working on. I must say; however, that we did this quite well in pre-season, but we just couldn't get to grips with the wingbacks of Brighton yesterday.
I somewhat agree with parts of your last paragraph, and ten Hag identified from the start that we need in our team. Granted, we could have focused on other positons, it seems he wants to build from the back, which is not a problem for me. A big part of his game is his build-up phase, and Martinez being left-footed and a very good passer of the ball improves that aspect of our game.
The next positon was a number 6 - the role Fred currently plays. ten Hag has wanted De Jong, who again, would have taken our game to the next level, but it seems that the club can't get it over the line, so off to the next target we go. Looks like Rabiot, which I personally don't agree with, but buying Eriksen and another centre midfielder has shown that he has priotised replacing them to some degree. The last thing he'll want to do is get rid of them because we're low on numbers as it is. This isn't FIFA, we can't just get rid of loads of players and buy loads, he will have to be patient. This is a marathon not a sprint, and ten Hag will need time to really put his stamp on his time, as Pep and Jurgen needed time.
One of them can't pass the ball to a Premier League level (McT) and the other one can only do it 50% of the time. Beyond comprehension that this is the current state of the most famous club in the world's midfield.
Well you said 'the excel, or are certainly better', and said this is not a bad thing because the team needs balance. I don't think it is unreasonable for me to point out that they are actually poor in this area, at least in my own opinion, and that they do not have the defensive capabilities to provide any such balance.
Us being passed around is both a structural and personnel problem IMO. And I am aware that this isn't FIFA. The point is, if you are a footballing type of football manager, I would expect you to look at the personnel in our squad - knowing that you cannot change everyone - and immediately identify the midfield options as the most urgent priority. It seems blindingly obvious. A team can certainly pass the ball around with Victor Lindelof and Luke Shaw, because they are actually able to pass the ball - but it obviously can't pass the ball around and keep possession with McTominay, Fred and Bruno. Therefore, even if your preferred approach is to build a team from the back, your hand should be forced due to the sheer lack of footballing ability in the centre of the pitch. Then there is also how things play out and which opportunities present themselves. For instance, if it is true that a loaded team like Newcastle show interest in a player who can barely control or pass the ball in McTominay - you don't reject that interest and say that you see him as a key player. If Bruno, who already has 3 years left on his deal and is not particular strong at keeping the ball, and that is the direction you want to go in - you don't green light an extension, if that is indeed what happened.
It is both a marathon and a sprint. Managers do not get to complete a marathon if they cannot first effectively sprint. If he does not improve on last season, he won't be running any marathon here. And if the plan is just to first implement a philosophy before upgrading the personnel - how on earth will he be able to implement a philosophy of keeping the ball with McTominay and Bruno in his midfield? He is not a 'possession manager' to me until what he does demonstrates he is one. Playing players fundamentally opposed to such play indicates to me that it is not a be-all-and-end-all to him, and he is instead more flexible in his approach. If he was a possession at all costs manager, he'd be playing the likes of Charlie Savage or Zidane over some of what we've seen in midfield, with the view to upgrading them as soon as he can. The likes of Scott would be seen in the same light he clearly sees AWB, which is a player he cannot use, because if he has any sort of possession principles - that is exactly what a CM who regularly posts passing percentages in the 60s like Scott is.
worst players in the history of the game and we need to get rid!
Higher pass completion rate than Eriksen go figure!
One of the highest number of pressures during the game, one of the highest successful pressures, one of the highest number of Arial duels won.
There was a reason he was left on and Fred was hooked early.
3 years running with these two in midfield. And we wonder why we’re so fecking bad? It’s beyond comprehension that the club is this incompetent.
Are you actually defending his performance?
Have said it before but if Fred is our best cm then we've got an issue. I think it's fine for him to be a starter but he needs to be playing with someone better than him and that's not McT.
Also those two plus Bruno is a problem as they all give the ball away cheaply albeit for different reasons. Although at times Bruno was being a bit more sensible I'm not sure it will last a season. I think if that three doesn't change then we'll have to adapt as we can't lose the ball in key areas like we do with so many players up the pitch.
What's frustrating is that it really feels that Rangnick's time was a waste. Putting aside last years performances, the one saving potential upside was hopefully he'd had a proper look at the players and could give fair insight into key issues. I can't believe for example he didn't say that the midfield and attack needed serious investment. If that's then being ignored to let EtH do his own assessment that seems like a bit of a time waste. I can understand if there's some areas/players where he wants to cast his own eye but surely for glaring areas there was a better way forward.
Also those two plus Bruno is a problem as they all give the ball away cheaply albeit for different reasons. Although at times Bruno was being a bit more sensible I'm not sure it will last a season. I think if that three doesn't change then we'll have to adapt as we can't lose the ball in key areas like we do with so many players up the pitch.
What's frustrating is that it really feels that Rangnick's time was a waste. Putting aside last years performances, the one saving potential upside was hopefully he'd had a proper look at the players and could give fair insight into key issues. I can't believe for example he didn't say that the midfield and attack needed serious investment. If that's then being ignored to let EtH do his own assessment that seems like a bit of a time waste. I can understand if there's some areas/players where he wants to cast his own eye but surely for glaring areas there was a better way forward.
It's sad, but it's also the reality we find ourselves in - we've been a mess at the very top for close to a decade now, that doesn't change overnight.
What a daft post. Did you watch the game? Compare Eriksens passes to McTominays and get back in your box.
Imagine actually defending McTominay after yesterday's game. One of his poorest performances in a United shirt and that's saying something. He's comfortably the worst midfielder we've had starting regularly in the last 30 years.
You may think they are poor off the ball. That's absolutely fine. My problem is that you insinuated that I said they were ''good defensively'', when all I said is that I believe they are better off the ball than on it. As I said, if you think I'm wrong, then let me know.
Part of pre-seaon is obviously preparing for the upcoming season ahead. ten Hag played a team, which more often than not, constsed of the midfield we started with yesterday against Brighton. For large parts of pre season, that midfield played considerably well, and dominated the ball, both in and out of possession. Therefore, ten Hag went with what he felt was suitable. It didn't work yesterday, and that was largely down to the three having very poor games, but that's not something ten Hag can control. Had they showed their pre season form, then we'd have been much better. You could argue that they were only friendlies and that's the reason they played well, but as I said, he can only pick a team based on how individuals have performed. Again, you could argue that Zidane or Van de Beek should have been in the team as the 8 instead of McTominay but he's gone with running power and aggression to possibly add that balance to the team. Did it work yesterday? No! Brighton are a very good footballing team and although we dominated them in terms of possession, we just couldn't get to grips with their formation, which as I said, isn't a Fred/McTominay problem, but more so a structural one. We could have started with Zidane and Savage and we'd have been the same off the ball.
McTominay doesn't have running power or aggression. People who say that base it purely on his stature because it's certainly not how he plays.
Just highlighting that stats can be incredibly misleading.
I've asked this question repeatedly on here with no answer yet, but I'll ask again in case any person on here can answer: why did Ten Hag not take McTominay off over Fred on 57 minutes, especially considering a)McT was on a yellow card and b) he was apparently having the worst game of his United career?
Seems strange to me.
I certainly don't think he was the worst player on the pitch, counting both teams.
In fairness, your language insinuated that. You said they 'excel' off the ball, and also that whatever level it is that they offer provides balance, because seemingly despite them not being strong on the ball, their other qualities balance us. In my view, I don't think it does. I'm not having a go, I'm reading what you wrote and responding.
And Ten Hag didn't give Wan-Bissaka a chance in pre-season. Seemingly, he decided he doesn't have the quality on the ball, but clearly didn't make the same observation of Scott McTominay. Which is his own failing, as it's been obvious for ages. He clearly had preconceptions about the players, and I didn't see pre-season as this 'clean slate' personally. Bailly, in my opinion, clearly didn't have a clean slate. He didn't want to leave and hoped to impress the manager, but from where I'm sat, he was probably too impressive even and quickly abandoned after that because we can't have Bailly impressing too much as we don't want to keep him. He was the most impressive of our centre halves in his first two games, and his reward was having his minutes reduced after that, so clearly he wasn't ever seen as a real option. Unless of course, he simply wasn't as impressive to ETH as he was to me, which is certainly possible!
As you said, he could have gone with Zidane. Or Savage. But he's gone for running power and aggression. That is not indicative of a 'possession based manager' at all, or a proactive/front-footed one. If YOUR style is to pass the ball - especially when you have set up a team without a fecking striker, then the emphasis has to be on building attacks on the ground and keeping the ball. It's all about priority and perspective. About what you value. One coach would see Zidane as too weak. Another would see McTominay as too shit. Neither are more important than the other, it depends on your team. This logic is what will see Scott ahead of a Pedri or even a 17 year old Gavi. 'Scott is stronger and runs harder'. Well, you saw what we got, but I've seen no evidence at United that Ten Hag is a 'possession manager' at all. I don't care about any reputation he has. To me, managers of a certain philosophy, Cruyffian disciples, do not voluntarily line up with the midfield that we lined up with yesterday unless they were the only three midfielders available. Guardiola has played Lahm in midfield. He's played Mascherano and Fernandinho at centre half. It is clear what type of manager he is and where his priorities lie. Ten Hag is either not the same type, or lacks the confidence to express it. I'm not a pro manager, but I know clearly what my views on football are, and I can tell you that there is no way that I'd start McTominay in a United midfield out of the options available. Particularly at Old Trafford against fecking Brighton.
Well I'd imagine that's because nobody can possibly answer that question. What is your question supposed to prove? Can only be one of two things: a) McTominay was having a good game or b) ETH is clueless.
Just highlighting that stats can be incredibly misleading.
I've asked this question repeatedly on here with no answer yet, but I'll ask again in case any person on here can answer: why did Ten Hag not take McTominay off over Fred on 57 minutes, especially considering a)McT was on a yellow card and b) he was apparently having the worst game of his United career?
Seems strange to me.
It’s finally happened. These two were so bad that we have now been forced into buying our backup options in mid field.
Well done. We have been an absolute joke in the transfer market lately. All this can change though if we actually get FDJ and at least one more centre mid.
Mcfred should never ever start a match for us again.
Well done. We have been an absolute joke in the transfer market lately. All this can change though if we actually get FDJ and at least one more centre mid.
Mcfred should never ever start a match for us again.
I agree with you, I would have played Garner and Fred. Garner was one of Forest's best players in the Championship last season as they got promoted. Deserved a chance over McTominay, who we know isn't good enough. Alas.
No, just genuinely asking why people think that was. Not every question has to have an agenda.
If McT was having such a poor game as some on here are saying, why did Ten Hag leave him on over Fred?
Personally I feel it's because McTominay was defensively better than Fred, was holding his position better and was actually following the managers instructions very well (hassle and hurry the opposition) this was important as the solidity was needed due to Eriksen dropping deeper in the middle.
So more answer ‘a’ then.
And nobody mentioned the question has an agenda, but you have mentioned, in a thread that unanimously thinks McTominay’s performance yesterday was unacceptable, that on more than one occasion nobody has told you why he was left on for 70 minutes.Clearly nobody agrees with the decision to leave him on, and the obvious answer to your question is that we do not know.
Clearly, the people you are asking feel that he was poor and don’t think he was left on due to playing well. So at this point is perhaps better if you yourself come out and make your point. Which it seems you now have, and by the sounds of things, you basically feel that he was playing well, and are using the fact that he was not taken off early as some sort of testament to that. So just say it and stand on it is all I’m saying.
Fred needs to never play as a 6 again.
McTominay needs to never start a league game again
McTominay needs to never start a league game again
No, I say this by using my eyes to analyse the game. He's forever getting into tussles and making strong tackles. See Atletico game. Plenty more examples, too.
It's because they were playing different roles and Fred's poor performance meant that United couldn't get out of their own half of the pitch without turning the ball over to Brighton's press. You can have a game where one/some of your forward players are crap and still get a decent result, but if your deep midfielder (who you're relying on to recieve the ball from the keeper/centre backs and move it up to the forwards and attack) is coughing the ball up on the edge of the box every time it comes to him in the buildup, you're going to lose every game 4-0. McTominay was legitimately terrible (he tried to dribble through two players in midfield and coughed the ball up leading to the first Brighton goal and just generally wasted every one of his limited chances in possession), but his responsibilities in the tactical setup meant that replacing him was a lower priority than getting Fred off the pitch and moving Eriksen down to act as the deep playmaker.
It may be that Fred would be better served playing higher up the pitch but it's pretty clear that neither of these players can play the deep midfielder role. De Jong would be ideal, obviously, but if they can't get him they need someone who can at least competently play as a deep lying playmaker or Ten Hag will have to change the setup quite a bit.
Its funny but this clip shows everything that's wrong with both. Fred with a simple pass but behind Maguire and slow so he has to wait for it, not precise and crisp. And then McTominay panicking right when he gets it, starts trying to dribble which he is useless at instead of playing it to a more talented attacker, and then gets lucky not to get a red card as his dribble turns into a studs up tackle.Tweet
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You gotta love how McT turns a potential shooting opportunity on his first touch into ankle breaking yellow card on the 6th
My language said they are better off the ball. You're overthinking it, and yet to answer whether I'm wrong or not.
You'd literally have to sit down and ask ten Hag why he started. What we see in games is just a little snippet. We don't see what's going on behind the scene and how the players perform in training. I mean, Van de Beek was a success under ten Hag at Ajax and even he didn't start, so I don't know. However, as I said, the midfield trio were able to dominate the ball for the entiret of pre season and even the game yesterday, so I'm not sure how you can say he's not a posssion manager.
The problem yesterday wasn't that we couldn't keep the ball, but our build up phase was way too slow, thus inviting the press. This was where Fred was massively at fault. As the "connector", he has the most important job in the team. Started well, but as soon as he gave away the ball, his performance started to deteriorated. This is why ten Hag has priroitised De Jong or someone of that ilk during the summer, and we saw the difference when Eriksen dropped deep.
Would you class Van Gaal as a ''Cruyffian disciple"? If so, fancy explaining to me why he played Fellaini and Herrera in the midfield who, lets be honest, are no better than Fred and McTominay on the ball? Whilst you're at it, can you also explain why we were able to dominate possession? Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure when Van Gaal was here, we were at the top of the possession stats. Even went to Anfield and bossed it! Having said that, we had Carrick or Blind in the single pivot, and that is the importance of having someone who can dicate the game in hat positon. Unfortunately, Fred is not really that player and until we get that player like City have Rodri and Liverpool have Fabinho or Thiago, we will struggle with our phase play. Teams will press us because they know they have a chance of nicking it off us. You do that to City and they'll just pop it past you, hence why teams don't play the full press. That said, I know it's Brighton, but we won't come up against a team as well drilled both on and off the ball every week. Potter deserves a massive amount of credit. Before the game started yesterday, it showed their away record vs the top 6, with them only losing to us and City.
I think when it comes to the final third, we'll always score goals. Team certainly won't look at us with fear like they used to, and it's clear we need more experienced bodies in the front positions, but I think we'll always score goals. Despite only scoring one yesterday, we could have had 3 or 4 on another day. Rashford with his two chances and Bruno's one early on.
I’ve said enough at this point. Peace be with you.
True.
Haha thats a shame. Would have loved you to answer the question I posed to you. Peace be with you, too.
Can anyone tell me what's supposed to be on mutv now? Schedule says yesterday's match but its showing classic vs arsenal which is buffering like feck on my firestick
Arsenal vs Utd 04/05.
Maybe because nobody can answer that (including you) apart from ETH? Seems strange that you can't understand that. Fred was also shite so it's not like it's even relevant either.
Just highlighting that stats can be incredibly misleading.
I've asked this question repeatedly on here with no answer yet, but I'll ask again in case any person on here can answer: why did Ten Hag not take McTominay off over Fred on 57 minutes, especially considering a)McT was on a yellow card and b) he was apparently having the worst game of his United career?
Seems strange to me.
You must he wearing rose tinted glasses then. If by tussles you mean fouling when he's already lost his man or tackling when he's given foolishly lost the ball after 5 or 6 touches, then sure.
As for "see atletico game". The game he turned up his collar for? What a load of nonsense. As if we haven't seen him jogging around in no man's land and giving away needless fouls for years. You've chosen a strange hill to die on defending a Championship player stealing a living at United, especially when the best you can come up with is "tussles and strong tackles."
Your only defense of him is that ETH didn't sub him out sooner. Come on man. State what you think he did well. ETH's decisions aren't perfect. He's human. He also had useless subs come on at the end of the match. That's an example of a mistake, albeit a low risk mistake that didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Someone post a compilation of McTominay. Have them defend that. Because these lot obviously don't remember or didn't watch the match if they can't tell us what McTominay did well.
McTominay would actually be half-decent if his mentality was simply to quickly shift the ball on to more technical players rather than, 'Hey, everyone, I can actually play a bit - watch this...' which nearly always ends with him tripping over his own feet/misplacing a pass/overhitting a pass/giving away a foul/losing the ball.
He's constantly caught up in this mindset where he's trying to prove that he's something more than a midfield destroyer/workhorse and not playing to his own (albeit limited) strengths.
He's constantly caught up in this mindset where he's trying to prove that he's something more than a midfield destroyer/workhorse and not playing to his own (albeit limited) strengths.
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These two were never good enough for a counter attacking system never mind the possession based system the new manager wants to implement.
Let’s hope the manager is a quick and decisive learner cause we won’t finish in the top half if we persist with these two.
This has probably been mentioned already but if we can’t get someone in we should move Martinez to midfield ASAP and play Varane/Lindelof in defense. Our football will be much better. I understand that is not the ideal solution but we are at a real risk of fading away here.
Let’s hope the manager is a quick and decisive learner cause we won’t finish in the top half if we persist with these two.
This has probably been mentioned already but if we can’t get someone in we should move Martinez to midfield ASAP and play Varane/Lindelof in defense. Our football will be much better. I understand that is not the ideal solution but we are at a real risk of fading away here.