McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams

villain

Hates Beyoncé
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
12,802
You don't think McTominay is a problem?

His passing accuracy was under 70% vs Liverpool. He's a midfielder that doesn't even play adventurous passes much.

He is easily more of a problem than Fred(who's also a problem).
This is the problem with relying on stats to tell the story or dictate the narrative.
McTominay is a worse passer of the ball, he often struggles to make simple 5-yard passes - that much is true.
Fred on the other hand can make those simple passes and more often than not - does do so (hence his passing % being very high)
However, Fred's sloppy passing or lack of control on the ball often leads to goals conceded or chances created for the other team - I can think of two off the top of my head last night, a couple on the weekend and others in other high profile games such as Leicester in the FA Cup, Milan in Europa and one of the games in the CL. That's without any effort to do the research because I'm sure there are more.

So yes, Fred has better passing %'s however, his mistakes are much more reckless and costly.
Neither of them are good enough for the first XI however, this isn't a defence of McTominay.
 

eire-red

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
984
Keane is spot on, and it shows time and time again against quality opposition how poor our midfield is.

We're never going to dominate teams having such a soft centre, and giving away possession so cheaply in the middle.
 

united_99

Takes pleasure in other people's pain
Joined
Jul 4, 2012
Messages
6,997
Of course it‘s a huge disadvantage to play 3 games in 5 days, especially at the end of an already exhausting season. We were always going to struggle. We are just lucky - or rather the team has done really well - to already claim top 4 before this disastrous schedule started.
On McFred, they are not useless, they would be valuable squad players. We have won many big games with them, only 2 months ago we won against City with them (and without Pogba).
I am also not annoyed with them, they work hard and give everything. That’s all you can ask for.
I am annoyed with the club which can’t be bothered to deliver more talented players in their position.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
12,518
This is the problem with relying on stats to tell the story or dictate the narrative.
McTominay is a worse passer of the ball, he often struggles to make simple 5-yard passes - that much is true.
Fred on the other hand can make those simple passes and more often than not - does do so (hence his passing % being very high)
However, Fred's sloppy passing or lack of control on the ball often leads to goals conceded or chances created for the other team - I can think of two off the top of my head last night, a couple on the weekend and others in other high profile games such as Leicester in the FA Cup, Milan in Europa and one of the games in the CL. That's without any effort to do the research because I'm sure there are more.
Fred is definitely a problem, but McTominay is more of a problem. The idea we should buy a better CM just to play next to McTominay is so far off the mark. Both should be binned from the starting XI.

McTominay is even worse in terms of control on the ball and passing. It takes him ages to shift his body position to make passes at times, avoids passing with his left foot and is generally cumbersome on the ball.

Just go watch the Liverpool game and pay attention to his positioning when we're building up from the back. He shies away from the ball. Fred at least makes himself available for the ball more often than not.
 

acnumber9

Full Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Messages
18,322
Stop being so reactionary, we have qualified for the Champions League twice now with the McFred midfield.
Maybe we won’t go onto win the league with the midfield but stop with hyperbolic nonsense
In our run that secured Champions League football last season McTominay started a grand total of 3 games. We drew two of them. Pogba and Matic were first choice post lockdown.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
49,117
Location
Hope, We Lose
When they play together we dont have a midfielder who actually wants to get on and receive the ball and try to dictate play. Pogba can do that but is defensively weak and its still not his speciality. Theres times where Matic does it and other times where hes just poor in general. Fred is more a case of already being open for a pass because he's so deep and then casually keeping the ball moving left or right with the occasional suicide pass or touch into an opponent's attack.

We dont have a Scholes or a Carrick who will have movement and work to get themselves free for a pass and then look to make their own pass count and move the attack forward. Even our newest signing in midfield who doesnt play Van De Beek doesn't want to do this, he wants someone else to do this so he can make forward runs off the ball.
 

laughtersassassin

Full Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
4,218
Fred is probably a slightly better player overall but he gives away so many goalscoring chances it's criminal.

Neither good enough. Be mad to play them both in the final regardless of our options.
 

Jackal981

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
277
He might be right. However, Keane fantastic player but a complete failure in every other aspect of football including punditry. He's not the barometer....
What he said is the truth.
 

villain

Hates Beyoncé
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
12,802
Fred is definitely a problem, but McTominay is more of a problem. The idea we should buy a better CM just to play next to McTominay is so far off the mark. Both should be binned from the starting XI.

McTominay is even worse in terms of control on the ball and passing. It takes him ages to shift his body position to make passes at times, avoids passing with his left foot and is generally cumbersome on the ball.

Just go watch the Liverpool game and pay attention to his positioning when we're building up from the back. He shies away from the ball. Fred at least makes himself available for the ball more often than not.
Fred making himself available and not being good enough, vs McTominay shying away are two different solutions to the same problem as far as i'm concerned.
I don't care to praise someone just because they work hard and try a lot if they're not good enough to execute what's necessary.

Neither of them should be starting in our midfield next season.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
12,518
Fred making himself available and not being good enough, vs McTominay shying away are two different solutions to the same problem as far as i'm concerned.
I don't care to praise someone just because they work hard and try a lot if they're not good enough to execute what's necessary.

Neither of them should be starting in our midfield next season.
Pretty much what I said.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
12,518
Obviously not but you're being ridiculous if you don't take into account confounding factors when it is in such few games.
You can do the same for our attack and goals scored though. It goes both ways.

Take away the 2 crazy Southampton and Leeds games and we've only scored a pitiful 55 goals in 34 games.
 

Zoo

Full Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
24,523
McTominay is a a major concern because we’re virtually playing with ten men. Good, bad or average at least Fred never hides.
 

bsCallout

Full Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
4,015
You can't be good defensively yet bad decisively. Stop taking results out FFS because they don't suit you
:lol:

And we don't need decent seasons defensively. We need top class ones. Which ain't happening with this. Do you think our ambition is to win the league in 2042 next?
Give it a rest. We've had a good season defensively. We have had a few games with confounding factors that have caused us to concede more goals that usual.

Obviously it needs to improve but with those 6 players we've done well overall. The fact that it's not good enough to win the title also doesn't mean it's not been decent. We aren't a title winning team this year, never were going to be.

I don't really want either McT or Fred to start for us but again as a unit, in general, they've done well.

The problem as I've highlighted is that because of that we are needing two defensively minded midfielders to do any good defensively. We need to be able to free up that position to have a ball playing CM to help us take the next step.
 

bsCallout

Full Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
4,015
You can do the same for our attack and goals scored though. It goes both ways.

Take away the 2 crazy Southampton and Leeds games and we've only scored a pitiful 55 goals in 34 games.
To be frank, I don't think we've done great going forward, I'd definitely expect that to improve next season. Both have been good but needs improvement.
 

VeevaVee

despite the protests, wears Ugg boots
Scout
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
43,429
Location
Manchester
Fred has his positives and has on the whole had a positive effect on our play, but his weaknesses for a midfielder are often glaring so it has to be asked if he can be improved upon. We need to look at bringing someone in who can be paired with both, who is better than both.
 

Garethw

scored 25-30 goals a season as a right footed RW
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
15,031
Location
England:
The fact that Ole keeps persisting with it is so fecking infuriating.
 

Garethw

scored 25-30 goals a season as a right footed RW
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
15,031
Location
England:
What's the alternative?
Switching to a 433 Formation so we aren’t shoehorning players into a position they aren’t natural too.

When Cavani isn’t available he could play Fernandes as a false 9 with Rashford and Greenwood wide.

Pogba Matic and Fred as a midfield three.

But no, our manager is not tactically flexible. He will always go with the safe option of two holding players, even at hone to the weakest PL teams.
Ole needs to replace his coaching staff with tactically astute, experienced individuals to make up for his own tactical deficiencies.
 

bsCallout

Full Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
4,015
Switching to a 433 Formation so we aren’t shoehorning players into a position they aren’t natural too.

When Cavani isn’t available he could play Fernandes as a false 9 with Rashford and Greenwood wide.

Pogba Matic and Fred as a midfield three.

But no, our manager is not tactically flexible. He will always go with the safe option of two holding players, even at hone to the weakest PL teams.
Ole needs to replace his coaching staff with tactically astute, experienced individuals to make up for his own tactical deficiencies.
Any midfield with Matic is done. Matic can't play regularly for a start.

Awful idea.

How do we play with a forward three with Bruno? You happy dropping a no.9?

Edit: or more importantly you're happy dropping Bruno when Cavani is available?
 
Last edited:

BusbyMalone

First Man Falling
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
6,427
McTominay is a decent squad player. Fred, I just don't rate at all. The trouble is, the both of them have been elevated to first-team starters partly out of necessity and partly out of some sort of loyalty from Ole. Realistically we need two new midfielders in the summer while dispensing with Fred. I get that people like a workhorse and a trier, but he's simply not good enough for where we want to be. It's just a shocking bit of business really - the man is in the top 5 most expensive midfielders in Premer League history, FFS.
 

Garethw

scored 25-30 goals a season as a right footed RW
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
15,031
Location
England:
Any midfield with Matic is done. Matic can't play regularly for a start.

Awful idea.

How do we play with a forward three with Bruno? You dropping a no.9?
I agree about Matic, he Can’t play every game and is pretty much finished. But he could just sit in front of the CB’s and let the other two midfielders do all the running. Look I’m not being paid millions to make these decisions, that’s Ole’s job. Right now his unwillingness to be more tactically flexible is hindering the team. Two holding midfielders or nothing. That’s what we get.

Messi has played the false 9 role for years in a strikerless Barca formation.
Bruno would have the license to do whatever he wants and Rashford and Greenwood would be instructed to play narrower/ cut in and offer a goal scoring threat.
 

FrankDrebin

Don't call me Shirley
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
9,846
Location
Police Squad
Supports
USA Manchester Red Socks
Lets be honest, that's going to be our midfield two starting next year as well, whether Ole likes it or not.
 

bsCallout

Full Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
4,015
I agree about Matic, he Can’t play every game and is pretty much finished. But he could just sit in front of the CB’s and let the other two midfielders do all the running. Look I’m not being paid millions to make these decisions, that’s Ole’s job. Right now his unwillingness to be more tactically flexible is hindering the team. Two holding midfielders or nothing. That’s what we get.

Messi has played the false 9 role for years in a strikerless Barca formation.
Bruno would have the license to do whatever he wants and Rashford and Greenwood would be instructed to play narrower/ cut in and offer a goal scoring threat.
Matic is a complete liability and would offer nothing that a top CDM would and therefore again we'd be overran in midfield with a passenger.

At the moment you're suggesting either dropping a no.9 or Bruno regularly.

Unfortunately we need to play a double pivot because our other options from a defensive point of view are awful.

Until we get a proper CDM we'll rightly persist with McFred, even though everyone knows they are not good enough.
 

Garethw

scored 25-30 goals a season as a right footed RW
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
15,031
Location
England:
Matic is a complete liability and would offer nothing that a top CDM would and therefore again we'd be overran in midfield with a passenger.

At the moment you're suggesting either dropping a no.9 or Bruno regularly.

Unfortunately we need to play a double pivot because our other options from a defensive point of view are awful.

Until we get a proper CDM we'll rightly persist with McFred, even though everyone knows they are not good enough.
Lets hope we bring in a top CDM this summer mate:)
 

FrankDrebin

Don't call me Shirley
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
9,846
Location
Police Squad
Supports
USA Manchester Red Socks
It may mean little but it's quite evident with the rumours floating around that a CM doesn't seem to be a priority.

CB,RW and ST seems to be taking up most of the gossip column inches.
 

Big Andy

Is really a midget
Joined
Oct 23, 2003
Messages
31,724
Brazilians are brought up from birth on football. As a nation they live and breathe football, they play 10 hours a day or more in the favelas and shanty towns, on gravel with no shoes on. They are renowned as the most skilful players in the world as a nation, and then you look at the ones we've bought in the past, and you think "Is this brazilian thing complete bullshit?"

Kleberson - Wank
Possebon - Wank. Still knocks on Pogatetz front door asking for his leg back
Fabio - Wank
Rafael - not wank, but still not a world beater
Andreas Pereira - Wank
Anderson - A bit of a laugh, but largely wank
Fred - Wank. Can't pass a pall 30 yards without giving it away
Telles - Wank. Came with a reputation of being a goal machine left back, can't remember him even having a shot
 

The holy trinity 68

The disparager
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
3,659
Location
Manchester
The likes of KdB-Gundogan, Kovacic-Kante, Ndidi-Tielemans isn’t even a debate, but I genuinely would rather have the likes of Rice-Soucek or Xhaka-Partey in our midfield than McFred. They make us lose so much attacking impetus for the benefit of slightly more defensive stability.

I rate both players individually (I started the Fred was value for money thread!), but they are frankly shit together. Their limitations on the ball stifle us so much in our build up play.

We desperately need a new midfield 2 this summer if we are to challenge for the title next season. Pogba and a new DM.

I would rather have Djemba-Djemba and Kleberson than fecking Dhaka and Partey.
 

Annihilate Now!

...or later, I'm not fussy
Scout
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
41,584
Location
W.Yorks
Question for the Caf... Who's lowest level is lower? Fred's or McT?

They're both dreadful, but Fred just edges it for me. At his worst he ceases to resemble a footballer.
 
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
12,235
Brazilians are brought up from birth on football. As a nation they live and breathe football, they play 10 hours a day or more in the favelas and shanty towns, on gravel with no shoes on. They are renowned as the most skilful players in the world as a nation, and then you look at the ones we've bought in the past, and you think "Is this brazilian thing complete bullshit?"

Kleberson - Wank
Possebon - Wank. Still knocks on Pogatetz front door asking for his leg back
Fabio - Wank
Rafael - not wank, but still not a world beater
Andreas Pereira - Wank
Anderson - A bit of a laugh, but largely wank
Fred - Wank. Can't pass a pall 30 yards without giving it away
Telles - Wank. Came with a reputation of being a goal machine left back, can't remember him even having a shot
thats a fair assessment.

I have some faith Telles can be a reliable deputy for Shaw, but he won’t be a first 11 player.
 

villain

Hates Beyoncé
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
12,802
Question for the Caf... Who's lowest level is lower? Fred's or McT?

They're both dreadful, but Fred just edges it for me. At his worst he ceases to resemble a footballer.
Fred absolutely. He has had a direct influence in us losing games or conceding goals many times this season alone. Hell, this week alone.
 

bsCallout

Full Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
4,015
Question for the Caf... Who's lowest level is lower? Fred's or McT?

They're both dreadful, but Fred just edges it for me. At his worst he ceases to resemble a footballer.

Fred definitely has the worst moments in a game. McT might just be average all game.
 

Conor

Full Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
1,393
Realistically, I think possibly neither are truly good enough to start in midfield on a regular basis, but they are certainly not good enough for both to play together. New DM please.
 

Harry Harries

Full Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
5,964
Location
UK, hun?
You parrot this idea over and over regardless of whether it's correct or not. Very much in the "repetition = truth" school of thought.
I'm not parroting it, sharing my opinion on him is probably fairer. Isn't that what we're all doing here?! I reckon I've spoken about it a handful of times.

I just think he's regressed somewhat in the way that he coasts through games without getting on the ball much or struggles to break up play when it comes through us. He gets lost and I'm not sure what his role is.
 

oz insomniac

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
290
Love the energy Fred brings, but when you look back, another Woodward signing which seems to be more about signing a player that Citeh was interested in, than someone who fits the clubs style.

So many mistakes on transfer signings and extensions, no wonder the Carraghers and others spout the £1billion figure. How bad was the decision to put a merchant banker in charge of the club, as most likely a reward for putting together the deal to buy the club without really using any of their own money, then just take dividends and sell off non voting shares to subsidise their opulent lifestyle.

Between Glazers and Woodward , nothing really favoured the progression of the club.
 

BusbyMalone

First Man Falling
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
6,427
Question for the Caf... Who's lowest level is lower? Fred's or McT?

They're both dreadful, but Fred just edges it for me. At his worst he ceases to resemble a footballer.
The answer is so obviously Fred. McTominay is a decent squad player for me, he just shouldn't be a starter week in, week out which he is at the moment. Fred, we should get rid of. He's not good enough. We need to bring in two midfielders in the summer.
 

Raw

Full Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
24,040
Location
Manchester, UK
At this rate they'll be no better than Schmidfield.

Didn't think they'd be our first choice midfield pairing coming into this season, thought they'd be an option for if we want to play more defensively. Nope. Midfield is becoming more and more of a priority now.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
21,024
Location
...
Based on transfer links and things he has said, Ole seems to have central defence and central midfield confused. It seems far more of a priority for us to have technically strong centre halves who can pass progressively and resist a press, even if they are physically weak, than it is for us to have actual central midfielders with those qualities.

Passing the ball well seems to be given more importance to our defenders than midfielders.