McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams

Hester_manc

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McTominay is one of our most important players. He has been fantastic this season. He has not played as well as normal the last couple of games, but otherwise he has been very strong. Fred is okay, but should not be in our strongest line-up.

Regarding the statistics some of you write about, I must agree with the Danish deceased manager, Ebbe Skovdal. Skovdal was the uncle of Michael and Brian Laudrup and once stated:

"It's with statistics like a miniskirt. It gives good ideas but hides the most important".
 
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acnumber9

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Doesn't tell you the number of times for the other players either? Great are your words not mine, so you tell me. My view is simple I don't believe Fred is anyway near as bad as people make out. No more, no less. I think Fred will be starting next season and if you lot are Ole in, explain that. You think that Utd couldn't sign 90% of those CDM's for peanuts on that lists? What is Ole seeing that you are not if you lot believe Fred's not good enough?
It doesn’t, but I can watch it happen every week for United. That’s the point though. Selective stats don’t show the whole picture.

You keep turning this into an Ole in or out thing. It’s possible to be a good manager and get things wrong. Ultimately it won’t be what Ole thinks that dictates whether our players are good enough. It will be the league table and the trophies handed out. If we want to progress we’ll need better midfielders. Not one who performs worse than Oriol Romeu on selected stats made to make Fred look good.
 

Litch

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McTominay is one of our most important players. He has been fantastic this season. He has not played as well as normal the last couple of games, but otherwise he has been very strong. Fred is okay, but should not be in our strongest line-up.

Regarding the statistics some of you write about, I must agree with the Danish deceased manager, Ebbe Skovdal. Skovdal was the uncle of Michael and Brian Laudrup and once stated:

"It's with statistics like a miniskirt. It gives good ideas but hides the most important".
Also extremely sexist.....
 

Litch

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It doesn’t, but I can watch it happen every week for United. That’s the point though. Selective stats don’t show the whole picture.

You keep turning this into an Ole in or out thing. It’s possible to be a good manager and get things wrong. Ultimately it won’t be what Ole thinks that dictates whether our players are good enough. It will be the league table and the trophies handed out. If we want to progress we’ll need better midfielders. Not one who performs worse than Oriol Romeu on selected stats made to make Fred look good.
For some reason, you keep stating things that I haven't said. Not making it into anything about Ole in or out. We have seen progress, Scott and Fred have contributed to that in some of the biggest games since Ole's appointment. For some unknown reason some want to minimise that. How can that be seen as anything but positive? Your view is a fans opinion, my view is a fact. We are second and in a final. I'll say it again, that is progress. If we want to go to challenge, we need 'better' in every single position, whether that's transfers or consistency. I include the owners and the manager in that too...
So the fact that the player at the top of the stats is by most people's reckoning the best CDM counts for nothing? Oh, the second one too. My apologies, only when it's about Fred are the stats irrelevant.
 
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acnumber9

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In fact it's Ole who picks them so I guess you'd have to question his ability too.
if you lot are Ole in,
For some reason, you keep stating things that I haven't said. Not making it into anything about Ole in or out. We have seen progress, Scott and Fred have contributed to that in some of the biggest games since Ole's appointment. For some unknown reason some want to minimise that. How can that be seen as anything but positive? Your view is a fans opinion, my view is a fact. We are second and in a final. I'll say it again, that is progress. If we want to go to challenge, we need 'better' in every single position, whether that's transfers or consistency. I include the owners and the manager in that too...
So the fact that the player at the top of the stats is by most people's reckoning the best CDM counts for nothing? Oh, the second one too. My apologies, only when it's about Fred are the stats irrelevant.
I’ve no idea where I got the idea you were making it an Ole in or out thing.

What about when the stats show that James McArthur is just behind Fred? Surely we’d be wise to sell Fred at a profit and buy up McArthur and spend the extra money strengthening elsewhere.

Your view is a fact? Do you understand what that word means?
 

Ceteris

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It's a shame the two get lumped together. Fred has a poor touch that gets him in trouble sometimes but he offers a lot more to us than Scottie does.
 

dave1956

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The mid field of Fred and Mctominey will not take us forward next season, against a injury hit Liverpool they could not impress themselves on the game. Mctominay a strong player because he can run from box to box, a fit athletic 100 yard athlete can do that does not mean he can make an impact on a football match. We need a mid field pair who can not only make and impact in the league but can also compete with the best mid fields in Europe and in all honesty for their effort they cannot.
 

amolbhatia50k

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McTominay is one of our most important players. He has been fantastic this season. He has not played as well as normal the last couple of games, but otherwise he has been very strong. Fred is okay, but should not be in our strongest line-up.

Regarding the statistics some of you write about, I must agree with the Danish deceased manager, Ebbe Skovdal. Skovdal was the uncle of Michael and Brian Laudrup and once stated:

"It's with statistics like a miniskirt. It gives good ideas but hides the most important".
:lol:
 

dave1956

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Perhaps I have been spoilt in my expectations of a mid field pair from former Utd teams. Could we go back to Pat Crerand and Nobert Stiles, Pat's positioning and passing ability were out of this world, but he lacked recover pace in the tackle, this was made up for by Nobert a perfect combination. Remember cross field pass in one game Crerand struck a 70 yard cross field pass to Best on the left wing it was so well weighted and accurate that Best did not have to brake stride to pick it up on his left foot. My point is we do not have those players that can do at present and although many see Fletcher as a very good mid field player compared to Styles and Crerand he was some what inferior in both skill and ability.
 

amolbhatia50k

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On another note, why is Mjebri so far from first team action? He's been billed to be a great CM for ages now and still not signs of proper first team action? Is he genuinely a prodigy or one that typically will need loans , to be 22 or so before he can be considered. Mega talents can usually step up at 20
 

Jackal981

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You can read all the stats you want, Fred shitness cannot be translated into numbers. Any stats for shit control and shitty pass ?
 

Jackal981

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McTominay is one of our most important players. He has been fantastic this season. He has not played as well as normal the last couple of games, but otherwise he has been very strong. Fred is okay, but should not be in our strongest line-up.

Regarding the statistics some of you write about, I must agree with the Danish deceased manager, Ebbe Skovdal. Skovdal was the uncle of Michael and Brian Laudrup and once stated:

"It's with statistics like a miniskirt. It gives good ideas but hides the most important".
Agree. In Fred’s case, the miniskirt hides a D
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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McTominay is one of our most important players. He has been fantastic this season. He has not played as well as normal the last couple of games, but otherwise he has been very strong. Fred is okay, but should not be in our strongest line-up.

Regarding the statistics some of you write about, I must agree with the Danish deceased manager, Ebbe Skovdal. Skovdal was the uncle of Michael and Brian Laudrup and once stated:

"It's with statistics like a miniskirt. It gives good ideas but hides the most important".
Man is the bar set awfully low if you think McTominay has been fantastic this season.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Second place, automatic greatness.

Caf is delirious with our astonishing accomplishments this year
It is hilarious.

I mean we can be pleased with our season and all, but some people really go OTT in praise of certain players and Ole.
 

LoneStar

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I think he was signed as an AM. But either way, what a disaster.
Think he was also signed because of his versatility to play different roles in the midfield. Turns out he's shit in all of them.
 

LoneStar

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You can't tell me that he's worse than these 2. At least we could try it out but Ole preferred Mata over him in CM, which was strange too
So far from what I've seen of him, this looks to be the case. The guy seems to hide in games, and when on the ball, always takes the easiest pass. This is even worse since it's like playing with 10 men.

I don't like Fred on his ability, but he always shows up and tries his best.
 

Tony247

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Basically everybody at the back got stripped naked by rivals as their bossman took a leave of absence.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Think he was also signed because of his versatility to play different roles in the midfield. Turns out he's shit in all of them.
Yup. I don't get the give him a bigger chance. When he's been given a chance he's been laughably bad. This isn't ADM coming and looking like he has ability but cocking up every cross. It looks like someone who is barely a football and wants to go off running

Im extremely worried about his complete inability to make an impression on football matches. Red flag if there ever was one over a player.

What is more concerning is that we actually signed him despite having issues in our squad.
 

LoneStar

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Yup. I don't get the give him a bigger chance. When he's been given a chance he's been laughably bad. This isn't ADM coming and looking like he has ability but cocking up every cross. It looks like someone who is barely a football and wants to go off running

Im extremely worried about his complete inability to make an impression on football matches. Red flag if there ever was one over a player.

What is more concerning is that we actually signed him despite having issues in our squad.
Yeah, agreed. I wouldn't mind if he was shipped off this summer, but am fine with giving him another chance next season as well. As long as we buy a new DM, we wouldn't go into the season relying on him to contribute too much.
 

Mcking

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You can read all the stats you want, Fred shitness cannot be translated into numbers. Any stats for shit control and shitty pass ?
It seems more than a bit difficult for some to look beyond the latest scapegoat. At some point it was Shaw and Maguire, now everyone regard them as some of our best the moment narratives started changing. Fred seems to be the new one now, and that quite a few put McTominay above him says everything really.

Fred does more defensive work among the two and also more work on the ball, and is so much better at the latter, but is the worse because he is the one on everyone's lips!

Fred does have the occasional horrible games where his bottom level is in full display, but it is difficult to believe that many who have watched him over the course of his time here still can't see his quality as a central midfielder and want he brings to the team. Look beyond the occasional errors and you'd see it. There aren't many midfielders in the Premier League that to the level he does, combine his workrate and proficiency in defense with his control and incision with the ball.

The thread title could be right about his partnership with McTominay, but if you look at them in isolation, you'd see that Fred is among the best, and McTominay among the worst, at least the last time I checked. That obviously makes McTominay the weaker of the partnership, but then Fred is the other part, and everyone is talking about Fred, so let's talk about Fred too!

Fred has made big errors this season, and it is easy to get caught in the shitshow, but I prefer to look at the net impact of players, and I'd say Fred has been a net positive. Im not going to go into stats as that has been done already, and unsuprisingly, got ignored, but I don't think he has been much worse than those quality midfielders, the likes of Ward-Prowse, Luiz and other midfielders that has been mentioned in this thread.

Ndidi, Kante, Rice, Phillips, Jorginho, Kovacic, Wijnaldum, Thiago, Tielemans, I ran out of names pretty fast. None of those midfielders have as much responsibility as he does, and neither do they play with a partner as ineffective as McTominay in both phases of the midfield game, and even with that, I'm sure he'd still compare favourably with them.

For what it is worth, this is a full-fledge defense of Fred. I have probably done a horrible job, but i rate him as a midfielder and it is difficult for him to be consistent when he plays with a partner that doesn't get involved when we have the ball, and doesn't do much defensive work either. The Premier League probably doesn't have the best midfielders around, but he has been one of the best these season imo, at least one of the best at combining both, and I think we'd be so much better if we get him a better partner.
 
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oz insomniac

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A radical thought, but McTom playing alongside McGuire may not be he worst thing, he is good in theair, can tackle,anod play out from the back. Has a decent work rate so can cover ground a bit better than Lindelof. Might work and frees up space in the midfield for a decent recruit and keeps an academy player in th squad.
 

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Regardless of whether you think he's crap or incredible, is it fair to judge a player as you are whose only meaningful minutes come when the second string is out and the rest is 5 min cameos?

I assume you have used Transfermarkt for your stats (and then taken it upon yourself to round 1.36 to 1.4) which is nothing over the course of a season. He has played 90mins twice over the whole season and had 2x45mins stints in the PL despite being available for 32/36 games so far - he was actually decent versus So'ton and then he was chucked on to rest players the other night in a B team. It's not surprising he hasn't passed your 'eye test' because he's on the bench.
Whether it’s fair to judge a player with 34 appearances is purely subjective. I believe it is fair. There is nothing in his performances to indicate he is some undiscovered talent buried in the depths of an amazing squad. As a holding midfielder / part of the pivot, he’s behind Fred, McT, Matic and Pogba, well behind Bruno and Pogba as a 10.

I was excited when we brought him in, but he really hasn’t lived up to expectations.
 

Hester_manc

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Man is the bar set awfully low if you think McTominay has been fantastic this season.
If you look at the statistics earlier in this thread, people only have focus on negative things. I can mention can postive thing really quick. I have not googled all the players in the list, but the first 9 I googled came up with this record:

Goals 2020/21
Ndidi: 1
Kante: 0
Romeu: 1
Neves: 5
Allan: 0
Yokuslu: 0
McArthur: 0
Bissouma: 2
Højbjerg: 1

McTominay: 7
 

amolbhatia50k

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If you look at the statistics earlier in this thread, people only have focus on negative things. I can mention can postive thing really quick. I have not googled all the players in the list, but the first 9 I googled came up with this record:

Goals 2020/21
Ndidi: 1
Kante: 0
Romeu: 1
Neves: 5
Allan: 0
Yokuslu: 0
McArthur: 0
Bissouma: 2
Højbjerg: 1

McTominay: 7
It's settled then. Mctominay and Neves are the greatest :houllier:
 

hmchan

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What about his lack of ability as an actual central midfielder?
Pogba has a much better passing range, dribbling skills to bring the ball from back to front, and physical ability in protecting the ball than McFred. These are all important attributes as an actual central midfielder.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Pogba has a much better passing range, dribbling skills to bring the ball from back to front, and physical ability in protecting the ball than McFred. These are all important attributes as an actual central midfielder.
They're attributes of an attacking midfielder. He's never excelled at the CM stuff which also involves reacting to loose balls, tracking runners and dealing with the press.
 

Hester_manc

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It's settled then. Mctominay and Neves are the greatest :houllier:
Christ, it is easy to be misunderstood here. I pointed out, that people were only focusing on the negative things in the statistics earlier in the thread. But I do see McTominay as one of the 3-4 best in this position in this league.
 

hmchan

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They're attributes of an attacking midfielder. He's never excelled at the CM stuff which also involves reacting to loose balls, tracking runners and dealing with the press.
It's not a problem if you put two defensive minded players in the double pivot, but you expect the team to be poor at playing out from the back and lack creativity from deep. This is what fans are complaining right now.
 

tomaldinho1

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Whether it’s fair to judge a player with 34 appearances is purely subjective. I believe it is fair. There is nothing in his performances to indicate he is some undiscovered talent buried in the depths of an amazing squad. As a holding midfielder / part of the pivot, he’s behind Fred, McT, Matic and Pogba, well behind Bruno and Pogba as a 10.

I was excited when we brought him in, but he really hasn’t lived up to expectations.
I’ll never understand this attitude but you’re entitled to your opinion.
He’ll have a good career as a CM it just probably won’t be here.
 

amolbhatia50k

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It's not a problem if you put two defensive minded players in the double pivot, but you expect the team to be poor at playing out from the back and lack creativity from deep. This is what fans are complaining right now.
I agree. Which is why we need a proper playmaking CM there and not Pogba who will again disappoint as it's not what he is despite people dreaming of him being one.
 

MadDogg

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Christ, it is easy to be misunderstood here. I pointed out, that people were only focusing on the negative things in the statistics earlier in the thread. But I do see McTominay as one of the 3-4 best in this position in this league.
What? :eek:

He's not even one of the best 3-4 in Manchester.

McTominay is a decent goalscorer, he's good in the air and he's strong. All things which are nice bonuses for a central midfielder, but that's all they are. Bonuses. At the things which are most important in that role (passing, controlling the game, creating chances, making himself available to be receive the ball, defensive positioning, winning the ball, pressing the opposition) he's literally below average.
 

Litch

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I’ve no idea where I got the idea you were making it an Ole in or out thing.

What about when the stats show that James McArthur is just behind Fred? Surely we’d be wise to sell Fred at a profit and buy up McArthur and spend the extra money strengthening elsewhere.

Your view is a fact? Do you understand what that word means?
This is boring cause it's completely taken out of context. How does that amount to making it into Ole in or out? It's quite the opposite, I'll say it again, if we finish second and being in a final is a fact. That's progress based on last season, which is also a fact. Fred has played in the majority of games and contributed to that progress.

What about James McArthur? That's such a stupid comment and that's like saying signing a player from Southampton because he's scored more goals than Martial. Then thing you seem to struggle with is context. Playing for Utd, the numbers equate differently. Ask Harry is his exploits abroad would have had the same impact in a Leicester shirt. Ask him if his game has ever been forensically examined like this in a Leicester shirt.

I'll apply your logic and say Fred not far behind Kante's numbers either.....
 

Litch

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Out of interest, where do your facts square with this?
I think Ole would struggle. Ole didn't get the job based on his achievements in management, he got the Job because Utd is in his DNA, he understands the club and been part of its success. That qualifies him more than most managers and places him in a unique position. Is that square enough and again, taken completely out of context.
 

acnumber9

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This is boring cause it's completely taken out of context. How does that amount to making it into Ole in or out? It's quite the opposite, I'll say it again, if we finish second and being in a final is a fact. That's progress based on last season, which is also a fact. Fred has played in the majority of games and contributed to that progress.

What about James McArthur? That's such a stupid comment and that's like saying signing a player from Southampton because he's scored more goals than Martial. Then thing you seem to struggle with is context. Playing for Utd, the numbers equate differently. Ask Harry is his exploits abroad would have had the same impact in a Leicester shirt. Ask him if his game has ever been forensically examined like this in a Leicester shirt.

I'll apply your logic and say Fred not far behind Kante's numbers either.....
I can’t make it any more black and white than I already have. You specifically mention Ole in. That’s how you made it an Ole in/Ole out thing.

Ok, it’s a fact that we’re currently second and in a final. How does that make Fred a good player if those same facts are only good enough to make Solskjaer a Championship manager?

You’re the one using the stats to prove that Fred is a good player. I’m pointing out those selected stats don’t tell you whether somebody is a good player or not. As evidenced by the fact that James fecking McArthur is just below Fred. The thing you seem to struggle with is understanding what you’re talking about. If those stats are evidence Fred is really good they’re also evidence that James McArthur is really good. He isn’t.
 
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