But if being second and in a final makes somebody a good player then surely it would follow that the manager of the team second and in a final is a good manager would it not? How he got the job is irrelevant and it’s you not understanding context.
McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
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They don't really create much do they?
Fred creates chances for the opposition, to be fair.
If we want to play with McFred, then we need to have brilliant wingplay (Sancho to get right wing fully operational). So the centre of midfield becomes a deadzone. Kill any offensive moves from opposition and don't start any from there either. Just give it to the wingers and fullbacks or have Lindelof fire passes over the top, or Maguire progress into midfield. Pogba as a winger does not work with McFred.
Bringin a proper DM is a must. Ok, most of us were like - it is his first season, he needs him to adjust, and he started playing better, but that is far far away from what we need.
Bringin Jadon or anyone else isn't a solution. We need a DM who can properly protect our back four
Bringin Jadon or anyone else isn't a solution. We need a DM who can properly protect our back four
You are really something. Because I mention Ole in, that doesn't make it anything. I can mention it's raining without talk about being wet. It's about context which you seem to struggle with. Again good player is as subjective as a good person. Fred is good at somethings and not as good at others. That pretty much describes every footballer, I'm happy with offers but again, you seem to be putting words in my mouth, saying I said he was a good player. I'm old enough to have seen a number of 'Freds' at Utd and whilst they weren't the best, fans warmed to them because of their commitment to the club and the fans.
It's not Fred and Scott's fault that they are not of the quality of previous players, that's a reflection of the club and its owners. Maybe I'm a bit old-school and putting on the shirt actually means something to them. Where they lack in skill, they show heart and thats important at the next level too.
We can go at this as long as you like, I'm not here to convince you what Fred is or isn't. Your view like mine is subjective as is terms like 'good'. Then you use 'really good'? Not sure when I said 'really' anything about Fred. I like Fred good, bad and indifferent. Next level there are much more variables than just Fred or Scott. I'm done......
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That sentence in itself means you are the one who is struggling again with context. Look it up. Again, you are applying some kind of strange logic but equally quite literal with it. First, not sure where this 'good player' as come from? Also in your statement, the two don't have to be mutual. How can how a manager get a job not be relevant. You think Ole would have got the job if he never played for Utd?
One of the best midfielders in the league? I’ll bite. Who are the other 3 or 4?
So you don’t think Fred is a good player? That’s not what somebody should take from your posts about Fred. You keep skirting around the hypocrisy of your ‘facts’. You can knock yourself out. The stupidity of what you’ve said is there for all to see.
No he wouldn’t, but how does that factor in to whether he’s actually a good manager or not? Guardiola wouldn’t have got the United job before he managed Barcelona.
He’s second and in a final. Surely that means he’s better than most of the managers in the Premier League.
Fred can be useful in the 'Kante role' of being an energetic annoyance, and disrupting play. You have to accept that you'll get very little on the ball from him, though frustratingly he very occasionally plays a pass that suggests otherwise. He has no consitency in that regard.
I had/have huge hopes for Scotty, but they're just hopes, and he's really regressing over the past few months. Mistakes have crept into his game, and in trying to mitigate and play things simple, he's actually hurting us more than playing his natural game would. He's no longer beating the press, he's no longer up the other end getting into the box late and he's no longer executing the occasional vertical pass. He's never been a great defensive shield.
So for me Scott needs benching - badly - but when your options are Pogba who Ole can't trust defensively or Matic who we can absolutely trust to be terrible, it's a difficult situation.
Has to be our number one priority in the summer. But it won't be, because since the early 00's Manchester United has been the team that builds without a central midfield. Remember the halycon days of Giggsy and O'Shea in there?
We've not had a settled, reliable central midfield since probably 2000.
I had/have huge hopes for Scotty, but they're just hopes, and he's really regressing over the past few months. Mistakes have crept into his game, and in trying to mitigate and play things simple, he's actually hurting us more than playing his natural game would. He's no longer beating the press, he's no longer up the other end getting into the box late and he's no longer executing the occasional vertical pass. He's never been a great defensive shield.
So for me Scott needs benching - badly - but when your options are Pogba who Ole can't trust defensively or Matic who we can absolutely trust to be terrible, it's a difficult situation.
Has to be our number one priority in the summer. But it won't be, because since the early 00's Manchester United has been the team that builds without a central midfield. Remember the halycon days of Giggsy and O'Shea in there?
We've not had a settled, reliable central midfield since probably 2000.
I wouldn't be harsh as OP suggests, but I also doubt McTominay is in the top 4 in his position. McFred can be functional midfield for some games and both would be very good in teams trying to get European football.
I said it before, they are one of the most improved players in our squad but down to lack of real alternatives and their playing time and importance improved.
Also, I'm sure most of us would be crying for McTominay if he's, let say, a West Ham player.
Stupidity, bit personal? This is like having a discussion with a teenager. Say it again, terms like good are subjective and you seem to use it like a broad brush. Even if I think he's good, others barometer of that is based on their own views of what good means. Doesn't make either right or wrong. It was the same discussion about Roy Keane and Bryan Robson or Giggs and Best. No comparing or including Fred in that (before you take that out of context too) but that's football. There is no hypocrisy or skirting around it, been very clear about my view of Fred. It's you that wants to use some kind of transference in applying what you think is good, and basing that on why I'm wrong.
Fred is good at somethings and poor at others. The things that he's good at, I believe people minimise and focus on the things he's not. Stats can be interpreted in lots of ways, but when it protrays him positively, people like you say they don't tell the right picture, however if there were about misplaced passes, I suspect you wouldn't be saying the same. No one has the monopoly on knowledge of a player or football. My view isn't based on stupidity, just on opinion.
Opinion not based on a player we might sign but one that plays for Utd and recently called up again by Brazil. You can have your view from behind you keyboard, the facts would suggest otherwise. He plays.......
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Again, you appear to be so literal. Depends on what you define as good. That's subjective and not universal. That's why forums exist, we all have different values based on what's important to us. I think if you like a player, you focus on their strengths; if you don't you focus on their weaknesses. Thanks Ok. There are good managers like Burnleys (who incidentally my son was under) that win nothing but under limited resources keep the team in PL. That's good, in that context. Ole and Guardiola's pathway were very different to compare.
Again, saying Ole is second and in a final surely is like saying Fred plays for Utd and Brazil so he must be better than other players? Go and look up context cause it's weakening your own argument....
I think your argument is not correct. Ole, being second and in a final, is what he has achieved and result based on his managerial capability. Fred, playing for United and Brazil, is where he is playing. A better comparison will be Ole coaching United doesnt mean he is better than other manager. However, if Fred won the World Cup under Brazil and got second in the league under United, it does mean that he is better than most other players.
It’s no more personal than your next sentence and several you’ve already posted.
I’m not asking for multiple people’s barometer of good, I’m asking for yours. If being second and in a final is factual evidence of somebody doing a good job in midfield, why doesn’t the same apply to the manager of that same team? I’ll be clear again to make this simple for you. I’m asking you, based on logic you used. That you refuse to answer speaks volumes.
Opinion not based on a manager we might hire but one that works for Man United and has recently had better league seasons than 18 other managers. You can have your view from behind your keyboard, the facts would suggest otherwise. He manages........
Parody of your last paragraph aside. Fred hasn’t actually played for Brazil for three years.
Was I supposed to take your posts metaphorically?
You’re bang on with your last paragraph. That’s exactly what I’m saying. The only reason I’m saying that is because that’s the exact argument you used to say that your opinion on Fred was a fact and mine was just an opinion. All I’m doing is pointing out how fecking stupid that is. Because you won’t apply that same logic to a manager you don’t rate.
Your hypocrisy and lack of understanding of what’s being said is undermining your already piss poor argument.
There used to be a stat I used to read about Modric a lot, i think it was the pass before an assist. Modric was excellent at supplying the "assist to an assist". I wonder what that stat is actually called and how our CM's compare in that rating, compared to others.
I found this blog that rates this sort of stuff for the 2018 season. apparently Matic was quite good that year.
https://blogofthenet.wordpress.com/2018/03/22/most-secondary-assists-in-europe/
In my mind this is a key role of central midfielders.
https://blogofthenet.wordpress.com/2018/03/22/most-secondary-assists-in-europe/
In my mind this is a key role of central midfielders.
I'm guessing key passes would show it. He did have a pretty high one at Tottenham in comparison to most midfielders: 2.6, 2.1, and 1.8 (I think its per game) in his last three seasons.
Current top five players in Premier League for key passes per game: Grealish - 3.2; De Bruyne - 3; Fernandes - 2.6; Mount - 2.4; Shaw - 2.3.
Pre-assist?
yeah that's the one. Does anyone a good site for stats like pre-assist? I have a feeling that McFred are pretty low in terms of pre-assists. It would be interesting to compare them with other teams who have a similar playing style to us. I feel we build up most of our attacks outwide, especially on the left. I suspect a big reason for that is because we don't get much creativeness in central midfield, unless Pogba is playing there - although i think 50% of the time he half arses it too.
I think we can close this thread for being just too obvious.
Here's one with the pre-assists midway through the season. Surprised that Fred has registered more pre-assists than the likes of Gundogan and Bernardo Silva? You shouldn't be. Possibly he has more than Modric too, given that Zidane's midfield is usually deep and is burdened with recycling possession and keeping the lines compact more than anything else. After all, with Fernandes enjoying freedom of movement between the lines, Fred's often the one who operates as the fulcrum for us to switch sides and keep the ball moving in the final third. It doesn't say much. Look at two of the midfielders leading the pre-assists stats, Lo Celso and Ndombele: Does it mean they are fantastic in terms of creativity? Absolutely not, it's just that Mourinho's shite on a stick tactic of transitioning with as few players as possible has pumped up their numbers simply because there's no variety in Spurs' game.
There's a reason why McT-Fred have been our best midfield partnership throughout the season (they have been, even i, who'd prefer a different approach in the midfield can admit this). They can cover lots of ground, they close down the first attacker like hounds and they can recover second balls in the middle of the park. This allows us to push both FBs higher up the pitch, which subsequently leads to our wide forwards (we don't play with wingers) to tuck inside and occupy the half-spaces where they are way more effective. At full stretch, we attack with 6 players (ST, LW, RW, AM, LB, RB) and defend with 4, which, contains a lot of risk and, quite evidently, puts the defence under a lot of pressure. But, throughout the course of the season, we have gained more than we have lost with Solskjaer's go-to midfield choice (unless you believe we should have won the league).
We rely on the wide areas for creativity because, in modern football with its congested midfields, that's where the spaces can be found, where the numerical advantages can be created and also where threats that can shift defences can occur. It's not a Fred-McT issue. According to WhoScored, United choose to build 26% of their attacks through the central channels. Liverpool's numbers are 27%. City have 28% and they share the first spot with the almighty Burnley and Spurs. Arsenal of Master-Apprentice Arteta and Leeds under the guidance of the eccentric mastermind (ask Pep about it) attack through the middle less than us.
It's true that the onus of creativity falls on the left side (42%), but that's also a conscious choice. Both Rasford and Martial's attacking game revolves around coming inside from the left to shoot/create, Pogba seems more comfortable there than anywhere else on the pitch and the same applies to our two best ball-carriers, Shaw and Fred. PSG have similar stats to ours because their attacking plays gravitate toward Mbappé who also has the proclivity to attack from the left half-space. Furthermore, we are a side who's attacking options often struggle to operate in tight spaces, so overloading one side and then switching to the other is one of the best ways to both generate space and to keep the momentum of our plays alive by circulating possession. You care to know which European side attacks through the left as much as we do (42%)? It's a side that uses the central channels less too (24%). Real Madrid, the one with Modric and Kroos. Again, it's a conscious choice for Zidane to use the wide channels and the left wing is his strongest. We can get Sancho, or whoever, to boost our right side, but i seriously doubt that we'll stop using the wings to build attacks.
Does this mean that all is well? No, it doesn't. You, me and everybody else who screams about the lack of ability on the ball haven't lost our minds. After all, there's a distinction between having a midfield that "serves a purpose" and having a midfield that will win you titles. There's another stat, posted on The Athletic a couple of months ago that's far more interesting than pre-assists: It's involvement in the build-up to non-penalty goals. This is where the likes of Rodri and Gundogan blow the likes of Fred and McT out of the water. It's not necessarily creativity that we lack in the midfield, it's better choices on the ball. Of course, someone will point out the absence of any Liverpool midfielder in the aforementioned graph. The answer to this is that Klopp actually does something about it: he chooses a midfield trio (instead of a double-pivot), Firmino -more often than not- becomes a fourth midfielder (in contrast to Bruno who's playing close to the box), plus both Mane and Salah are quite comfortable receiving the ball either very wide or very deep (they can do a much better job than our options in that regard). Whenever their midfielders find it hard to cope, they can add a fourth, a fifth or even a sixth player in the midfield battle. Fred-McT aren't the best on the ball, but how much help do they get from their teammates? We have tried the diamond but to varying results thus far (and i think i'm being kind).
As a side note, this graph might help people understand why Maguire, Rashford, Fernandes and AWB are undroppable for Solskjaer and how much we're going to miss Maguire in the final (or how his absence played a significant part in the collapse of our build-up when the scousers turned on the volume the other day).
So, back to the "better choices" issue. There have been alarm bells ringing. The much-despised xPTS and xG stats suggest that no other team in the PL has outperformed their stats more than us. And before anyone jumps on me thinking i deny the progress that's been made, it's the same metric that, midway last season when half of the Caf wanted to throw the current manager to the lions, was asking for calm because the stats were suggesting that we would improve. So, we have to keep adding qualities to our first-team, in all areas, and we also have to find ways to make the current team perform more than the sum of its parts. As things stand, the midfielder who'll add intelligence while also possessing horse lungs, is a rarity. As i mentioned, the specific qualities McFred bring to the table have been important to us. You can't just replace McT with Modric and be done with it. Football is simple but it's not that simple. You'll get more ability on the ball but you'll weaken your press/closing down and with a defence that can't deal with threats in-behind and with Lindelof's inability to defend the wide right channel (when AWB is forward) being an open wound for us, we may find ourselves between a rock and a hard place again. If you look at RM for instance, they circulate the ball well but they are very cautious with moving players in advanced positions. And even the best midfielders on the ball can't compensate for the lack of movement or the tendency to pass the ball right back to them from the attackers.
I don't think that Solskjaer's aim is to create a possession-based side like City. Now, assuming that we can't sign that elusive midfielder (Kimmich, Verratti etc), two options remain: A move away from the 4231 (with the risk of tinkering with its good aspects too) or get the CB and the RW who will provide defensive stability in a high line and more balance on the right side respectively, so that we can accommodate Pogba (or whoever) in the midfield at the expense of McT or Fred.
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They may be our best because we don't have anyone else to play in there. This area is the first that needs to be upgraded. Fred I normally don't have any issue still being useful but McTominay is simply not good enough. Even if a better player comes in a DM McTominay is not going to be a better option than Fred for a box to box midfielder.
Brilliant post, once of the best i've read on this forum in a long time. I really appreciate the efffort you put into it. Personally I've like our team to be as effective from the right as they are from the left, or certainly more so than they have been in the past. I think Greenwood has added that and I hope if we sign Sancho it'll be a big step up for our side. I also think have more creativity in central midfield would help with a plan B, meaning we don't always have to play wide. You are right though, great creative CM's who are also very hard working aren't always easy to come by, but that's what we need to improve the side further.
To be title challengers we need to have multiple ways we can attack teams, threats in every area and also be good at breaking down teams who are sat deep and narrow.
Cheers, i appreciate the kind words.
I agree that we need more creativity and we also need to pose a bigger threat from the right. And yes, Sancho is an interesting case because not only his assist but his involvement in moves leading to goals stats are high too. We can expect that his numbers in terms of end-product may drop a bit in the PL but some of the qualities we need to add to the right wing are there.
I wrote the post above having in mind that, when the discussion comes to the midfield, many people on here (not you) ask for a whole different approach more than anything else. I think that Solskjaer has made it clear that we're not going to become a possession-based side. As for the McFred partnership itself, it has glaring weaknesses, especially when we're the ones who must take the initiative and move the ball around with purpose and in the tempo of our liking. The main argument in their favour is that, both in England and in Europe, we've done well against sides that let us have the ball and we've also achieved more comebacks than anybody else. And you know what? It's a good argument but, sadly, it doesn't cover everything. What these two don't possess and the likes of Carrick-Scholes-Giggs had in abundance is the ability to find little pockets of space in order to receive the ball with face to goal and the nuance to know when it's the right moment to be direct, when the through ball is available and when the best option is to play it safe. And tbf to the lads, neither Pogba has it. He depends on others to create space for him and he's overconfident in his (exquisite) passing range and physicality more than he is intelligent in his game. And yes, our comebacks are a record this season, but this also showcases that we find ourselves in a tough spot more often than we would want to. This happens because we're often lethargic and waste whole halves of our games waiting for Bruno and Rashford to come up with something out of nothing. Some others we have a lead to protect and we're being drawn to an end to end contest. There's no rhythm and no cleverness in our game. And, if you watch closely, the comebacks occur when we play at full stretch (with both FBs high up the pitch) which is nice to watch but it won't get us very far in an environment where the league is decided on 90+ points. We can't be taking risks week in - week out and expect to always come up trumps.
It's all about the next step of this side's evolution. Will we choose to fortify the defence with a pro-active quick defender and find a solution to the RW conundrum since we can't get someone like Kimmich or Verratti? Maybe a centre-forward too? How much would they improve us? If we decide to sign a new CM (and we can't get exactly what we need), what type of midfielder should we go after? I believe that, in Solskjaer's mind, McFred are a necessity in the current set-up because they allow both FBs to push higher and some attackers to not track back in transition. They also cover much ground to help a defence that's afraid to keep a very high line. But this doesn't mean that he's oblivious to the lack of good passing in the middle of the park. The thing is we can't easily hide Pogba's nonchalantness and his poor defensive contribution (i don't think he lacks the will to put a shift in, he's just very bad at defending and i also think that this has played a huge part in the communication breakdown between him and Mourinho) under the carpet. At least not with this defence. But you can see that Solskajer wants to put his early balls and his passing skills to good use even at the expense of other players (nowadays it's Rashford). It's frustrating but it's also an indication that we may be content but we're not overly happy with McFred. I also believe that Matic's new deal hints toward the need to look for a holding midfielder. Such a player could give us the opportunity to play a better 433 or a diamond. He can also help in the current setup. We should not underestimate how crucial an in-form Matic was to our resurgence during project restart. His ability to drop between the CBs in the first phase of build-up allowed Shaw to advance and Rashford to always play behind the opposition FB. It unlocked options for us, having both Maguire and Matic to take care of the ball in our own third. Fred can do a job there but it's not his natural role. And it will be an issue for the EL final.
McT a worse, taller version of Darren Fletcher, if he wasn't an academy player he would never be in a United side.
Of course we would never buy McTominay. He is there only because he is academy player.
McT has far less talent than Darren Fletcher at the same age. He seems a good lad and a hard worker, and he'll obviously get a long lasting pass for his shortcomings because he's an academy player, much the same as Lingard did.
Ultimately though the longer he and Fred are first choice the longer we'll be waiting on major titles. Yet again we've fallen into this trap of complacency with our midfield, and also putting too many players in the team who are shit with the ball and can't handle a high press.
Ultimately though the longer he and Fred are first choice the longer we'll be waiting on major titles. Yet again we've fallen into this trap of complacency with our midfield, and also putting too many players in the team who are shit with the ball and can't handle a high press.
Random but was thinking if we had to spread play to one of the flanks, how confident would one be in McFred getting that right? We used to bemoan Rooney constantly playing it early to Valencia but it's something I believe I wouldn't trust our current CMs to pull off consistently.
Pogba is wonderful at it btw.
Pogba is wonderful at it btw.
You can't pass central if Bruno is being marked and needed to go wide to create space for himself.
The reason why McTominay plays less passes centrally because during our build up play, he was playing like our right side centre back. That means new DM is likely to be given the same role (assume if we sticks the same playing style/pattern of play).
I agree that there is a lot to desire about this partnership, but there is one issue that I think is greatly overlooked when people so often claim Fred and McTominay are doing the job of one CM. When both our full-backs are rushing forward, this leaves a lot of space on the sides for the opponent to explore on counters, and that's the problem with using Pogba + Matic centrally - they are simply not mobile enough, while Fred and McTominay do a very good job covering those rooms. I think the job Fred and McTominay are doing without the ball are greatly overlooked by the fans.
If you read the article posted above, the reason why the fullbacks “rush forward” is because the central midfielders don’t know how to progress the ball in the buildup centrally and shove it wide to the fullbacks to deal with (mostly Shaw).
It certainly isn't because of our well doing but because of their wrong doings.
Correct. It is always going from side to side until Shaw or Wan Bissaka run up with the ball. This has happened so frequently that other teams began to read our movements comfortably.
...and in other breaking news, we can reveal that chicken nuggets are actually made from chicken.
City only won the league, because we dropped points early on in the season. Our wrong doings, not their well doing.
The author of that article may believe he has made a huge discovery, but we play with two offensive fullbacks because that's the "United way", and because we play with inside wings. Not because our midfield is crap. Ole has from the very beginning been very vocal about that his is the way he wants us to play.
The backlash on these two guys is pretty demanding considering Fred starts in midfield for Brazil and Scott starts for Scotland.
Fred has been starting for Brazil over Fabinho in the Copa America.
Fred has been starting for Brazil over Fabinho in the Copa America.