McTominay and Fred, do we need both?

[Stacks]

McTominay needs dropping for a while. He's been absolutely atrocious the last three games, which is strange because the game immediately before that was by far his best on-the-ball performance he's had.

He drank red bull that day

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Since McT and Fred have come back into the team, we have found a lot more balance which has ultimately seen us move up the league. God only knows where we'd be if we started the season with them, as opposed to Matic and Pogba.

Do we need a better passer next to them? Definitely! For now; however, they are our best pairing, in my opinion.

 

[hobbers]

We need upgrades on both of them, such that we dont need to play two players to do the job of one.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Since McT and Fred have come back into the team, we have found a lot more balance which has ultimately seen us move up the league. God only knows where we'd be if we started the season with them, as opposed to Matic and Pogba.

Do we need a better passer next to them? Definitely! For now; however, they are our best pairing, in my opinion.

As opposed to Matic and Pogba. You mean the Matic who has only lost once in his last 17 starts in the league? Many which were with Pogba. God only knows where we’d be with 1 loss in 17. We might actually be in first.

 

[Jeppers7]

For me the only issue is that neither are defensive midfielders. Having to play both restricts our ability to play another attacking player. Neither are bad players but they aren’t indidually or as a pairing what we need because both are poor defensively

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

As opposed to Matic and Pogba. You mean the Matic who has only lost once in his last 17 starts in the league? Many which were with Pogba. God only knows where we’d be with 1 loss in 17. We might actually be in first.

Yeah, pretty sure we're talking about the same one.

Granted, he and Pogba did well at the back end of last season, the two of them were constantly overrun by teams at the start of the season which caused Ole to change the midfield pairing.

Our defence and performances this season improved when McT and Fred were introduced.

The games that Matic has started this season have been:

Brighton
Spurs
West Brom
Southampton
Wolves
Sheff Utd

Got embarrassed against Spurs, and apart from Soton, who have been really good this season, we should be winning those games anyway.

He hardly ever plays in the tougher fixtures now because Ole trusts McT and Fred in the big games.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

For me the only issue is that neither are defensive midfielders. Having to play both restricts our ability to play another attacking player. Neither are bad players but they aren’t indidually or as a pairing what we need because both are poor defensively

It doesn't because that's how you play a 4231. The double-pivot is there to facilitate the attack, as opposed to attack themselves.

Yes, in games where we need a goal you may find one of them pushes forward but more often than not, the two will sit and distribute to the attacking quartet and full-backs.

My argument is that we possibly need someone better on the ball to dictate our games more but I don't think Ole wants his pivot to attack. Just look at Pogba when he plays deep. He acts as a deep-lying playmaker and hardly ever gets forward, if at all.

 

[Isotope]

For me the only issue is that neither are defensive midfielders. Having to play both restricts our ability to play another attacking player. Neither are bad players but they aren’t indidually or as a pairing what we need because both are poor defensively

Both are poor defensively, average at keeping the ball, average at circulating the ball, and average attacking wise. At least Fred would run like a madman.

Both are certainly very upgradable.

 

[Snuffkin]

We need upgrades on both of them, such that we dont need to play two players to do the job of one.

Yep

 

[Giggs86]

They're useless without a Scholes/Carrick type of player next to them who can actually dictate tempo and pass the ball. And no, Pogba is nowhere near a Scholes/Carrick type of player.

 

[LUC1f3R]

While they are good, I believe we need a better DM so that we can accommodate another attacking midfield.

I sometimes find both taking much time on the ball and thus slowing down our transition to attack

 

[lsd]

We need both because neither of them are good enough on their own and sadly we lose out on an attacking player when we play the two of them.

This is why we need a top class defensive midfielder so then we do without them both

 

[city-puma]

I feel Ole should stop use diamond midfield In order to put pogba on left. It is unbalanced and compromises our setup.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Both Fred and McT are more suited to being the side midfielders in Xmas tree than dual pivots. The pairing simply doesnt have the skill sets required for a quality dual pivot.

 

[Borys]

Fred&McTominay combo was the the "golden solution" to our midfield in early stages of the season, but I argued before the City game that it's a mistake to play McTominay from the start. I'm not sure what he brings to the side on current form, offensively I never expected him to impact the game but he seems a bit out of depth defensively too right now.

Fred is doing well, especially considering he's getting close to zero support from his midfield partner.

 

[fps]

They tend to play a lot better together when Pogba is not in the team for some reason.

They are limited yes but when they are both firing on all cylinders, they can overpower most midfields with speed, desire and tenacity.

Both have been a little off the boil recently.

Pogba takes too many touches so slows down the link to the attack too often. It counteracts F and McT as players who get it and just shift it forward.

 

[Ekeke]

They made 2 tackles and 1 interception between them... And McTominay made 1 interception and 1 tackle. So Fred just 1 tackle and 0 interceptions

The City game was a big exposure of our DMs. Chasing shadows and ineffective. They both had 2 fouls, twice as many as the tackles they were able to make

Sometimes you need more than legs running up and down the pitch

 

[Bobcat]

They're useless without a Scholes/Carrick type of player next to them who can actually dictate tempo and pass the ball. And no, Pogba is nowhere near a Scholes/Carrick type of player.

Agreed. A technically and tactically astute CM next to Fred would do wonders. Right now we rely too much on Bruno to create chances, so if he has a bad game or gets marked out we struggle to create something down the middle.

 

[Ekeke]

They're useless without a Scholes/Carrick type of player next to them who can actually dictate tempo and pass the ball. And no, Pogba is nowhere near a Scholes/Carrick type of player.

They were useless at the ball winning part too. So they need a Kante to hold their hands as well

 

[wolvored]

Whether hes the answer long term or not Ole needs to use VDB more and phase Pogba out of the game. If he persists with a double pivot then try VDB and Fred/McTom. Bring Greenwood in on the Right and Rashford Left with Cavani upfront.
I would hope he bought a proper DM and switch to 4-1-4-1 and have Bruno VDB further upfield. We have seen what VDB can do at Ajax when played regular and full of confidence. His confidence must be shot and the piss take of bringing him on for 3 mins plus stoppage when chasing a game was ridiculous. It wouldnt surprise me if he asked to be sold.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Whether hes the answer long term or not Ole needs to use VDB more and phase Pogba out of the game. If he persists with a double pivot then try VDB and Fred/McTom. Bring Greenwood in on the Right and Rashford Left with Cavani upfront.
I would hope he bought a proper DM and switch to 4-1-4-1 and have Bruno VDB further upfield. We have seen what VDB can do at Ajax when played regular and full of confidence. His confidence must be shot and the piss take of bringing him on for 3 mins plus stoppage when chasing a game was ridiculous. It wouldnt surprise me if he asked to be sold.

Agree with this.

Think back to our only pre season game against Villa and he played really well in the 4-2-3-1.

Now at the time we lost 1-0 and everybody cried, but with hindsight now that Villa have shown they're actually pretty good - that was a good performance genuinely.

He played alongside Mctominay in the base of midfield and showed he's more than capable doing that job, so why aren't we trusting him more?

His better passing skills, ball retention when pressed and the ability to play quick 1 touch football is surely far more important than being able to run around and kick people?

I think this is maybe where Ole will fail at the very top level as a manager, the BEST European managers realise that keeping the ball and passing it properly is far more effective than having a big guy to physically win a duel.

With the way the game has evolved with pretty much zero contact allowed, team pressing has bypassed the need for strong tacklers.

 

[MU655]

They made 2 tackles and 1 interception between them... And McTominay made 1 interception and 1 tackle. So Fred just 1 tackle and 0 interceptions

The City game was a big exposure of our DMs. Chasing shadows and ineffective. They both had 2 fouls, twice as many as the tackles they were able to make

Sometimes you need more than legs running up and down the pitch

This doesn't tell the whole story. Most of the possession that Man City had was passing between their midfielders in their own half or near the halfway line. It wasn't this blitzing display that some people seem to be making out.

Our team press is an issue; we are not organised at all and it does make the job harder. This lack of an organised press will always put us in this position. We can win by countering, but it doesn't work if your forwards play like they did yesterday.

For me, you can only get away with a disorganised press if your counter attacks are effective. And yesterday, Rashford, Martial, and Fernandes were poor and provided no outlet. A disorganised press has a massive impact on a player's performance as, if it is done well, it makes their job much easier.

If you combine most of Man City's play happening near the halfway line and us not really being a pressing team, the culminating result is a low number of tackles. It isn't really a surprise. I don't think defensively, Mctominay and Fred were an issue at all as Man City weren't this all domineering team. They had a lot of possession, but their threat was actually pretty low. Their best chances came from mistakes in the defence and a very good goal from Fernandinho (poor header by Wan Bissaka beforehand). They didn't come through the centre of midfield.

I would say in possession, though, that Mctominay has been a problem. He is completing a ridiculously low number of passes per game for a midfielder. He almost makes half the passes per game that Fred makes, which is making it difficult for us to sustain possession for long periods. I do think if he doesn't pick it up, we definitely need to look for an alternative who will make themselves available more. Mctominay hides away far too much or is just bad at positioning.

 

[Ekeke]

This doesn't tell the whole story. Most of the possession that Man City had was passing between their midfielders in their own half or near the halfway line. It wasn't this blitzing display that some people seem to be making out.

Our team press is an issue; we are not organised at all and it does make the job harder. This lack of an organised press will always put us in this position. We can win by countering, but it doesn't work if your forwards play like they did yesterday.

For me, you can only get away with a disorganised press if your counter attacks are effective. And yesterday, Rashford, Martial, and Fernandes were poor and provided no outlet. A disorganised press has a massive impact on a player's performance as, if it is done well, it makes their job much easier.

If you combine most of Man City's play happening near the halfway line and us not really being a pressing team, the culminating result is a low number of tackles. It isn't really a surprise. I don't think defensively, Mctominay and Fred were an issue at all as Man City weren't this all domineering team. They had a lot of possession, but their threat was actually pretty low. Their best chances came from mistakes in the defence and a very good goal from Fernandinho (poor header by Wan Bissaka beforehand). They didn't come through the centre of midfield.

I would say in possession, though, that Mctominay has been a problem. He is completing a ridiculously low number of passes per game for a midfielder. He almost makes half the passes per game that Fred makes, which is making it difficult for us to sustain possession for long periods. I do think if he doesn't pick it up, we definitely need to look for an alternative who will make themselves available more. Mctominay hides away far too much or is just bad at positioning.

44% of the game was in the middle third, 31% in City's third and 25% in United's. There was plenty of the ball to be won if we were good at it

 

[MU655]

44% of the game was in the middle third, 31% in City's third and 25% in United's. There was plenty of the ball to be won if we were good at it

We don't press as a team, though, so this was always going to happen. 75% being from the middle third and City's third likely means they were greatly unimpeded during these phases of play because we don't press, so a very low chance of a tackle happening.

They had 54.9 minutes of the play, based on their 61% of possession. So, 41.1 minutes of play (75%), there was a very low chance of us tackling their players due us preferring to drop back rather than press as a team. The individual press that Fred, Fernandes etc. does have its uses, but its nowhere near as effective as a team effort.

1 tackle is about what you would expect, judging by how the game went. How much of that 25% in United's was not in the centre of the pitch? So, again, you can lower the time to make a tackle in the middle. It does show, though, that we probably need to start implementing an organised press to have as an option in the event counter-attacking doesn't work. That is where a major issue lay last night, along with McTominay disappearing when we are in possession.

 

[Roboc7]

There’s no need for Mctominay to be playing so often, he’s not involved enough when we have the ball and is being caught out of position and ball watching too often when we don’t have it.

 

[Lewnited]

I just don't think Mctominay suits the role he's being asked to play, on the rare occasion he's been allowed to play slightly higher up the pitch or break forward he's looked much better. If we need a midfielder to mostly sit as he was yesterday then Matic is the only one that's shown their capable of that at a high level, regardless of performances this season.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

They're useless without a Scholes/Carrick type of player next to them who can actually dictate tempo and pass the ball. And no, Pogba is nowhere near a Scholes/Carrick type of player.

Pogba is not a Carrick/Scholes type of player but I'm surprised we haven't seen a pivot of Pogba and Fred on more occasions.

It was tried in the Europa Cup against Copenhagen and Sevilla, and we looked good, despite the loss against Sevilla.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I was going to say these two are better without the ball than with it but those stats from last night certainly don't seem reassuring.

Anyway, the first team is in continual need of upgrade yet the club don't seem too fussed in bringing in the required quality.

5 players brought in the summer and only 1 (Cavani) has improved the first team.

 

[joemacwalls]

I personally don't think we need both. I'd much rather play with one sitting midfielder and two more advanced behind the front 3, but Ole obviously doesn't trust the defence enough for this. I think ideally Fernandes and VDB would play as forward thinking midfielders with Mctominay, Fred or Matic sitting. As much as I think Pogba has bags of talent, he doesn't do it enough and this experiment playing him wide left doesn't do it for me at all - not sure what anyone else thinks?

If we are playing a front 3 then I want Rashford wide left and ideally Greenwood wide right. Either Martial or Cavani in the middle, bearing in mind that when we were on that brilliant run when last season restarted that front 3 played consistently and we destroyed pretty much everyone until Ole changed it for the FA cup semi (something I think he does too often in big games, but that's another debate).

As for Fred or Mctominay I prefer Mctominay, I just think he has more to give. I feel Fred looks really clumsy on the ball and think Mctominay has more quality overall. Is there enough quality or potential to be our sitting midfielder for future? I'm thinking probably not, although an academy player would always be the preference. Would be interested to see how Garner develops and whether he will get a chance at all when he returns from loan. I'd also like to see more of the promising young players given a chance, especially in defence as if we could sort that out then a single sitting midfielder seems more likely. Not sure why Williams is being ignored - i've not been impressed by Telles, Tuanzebe has looked good but never plays and Teden Mengi also doesn't seem to be getting a chance. Maybe in the FA Cup this weekend we might see some of them.

 

[DWelbz19]

They do the job of what one (top level) midfielder should be doing split between two players — McTominay with his height, presence, and relatively sound first touch; Fred with his stamina, tenacity, and interception rate.

Ideally you wouldn’t start both because they have similar weaknesses — neither are truly defensive midfielders who are at their best holding, neither are goalscorers (McTominay’s stormer aside), and neither are that great at passing.
——
If you go through our 5 central midfielders and set out all the pluses and the negatives, you come back with a really annoying set where most of them have things they’re very good at, but then some things very visibly weak at. There’s nobody truly rounded in our midfield, or nobody who is truly a specialist (Matic probably comes closest, but he has more age and mobility concerns now).

 

[Ash_G]

They do the job of what one (top level) midfielder should be doing split between two players — McTominay with his height, presence, and relatively sound first touch; Fred with his stamina, tenacity, and interception rate.

Ideally you wouldn’t start both because they have similar weaknesses — neither are truly defensive midfielders who are at their best holding, neither are goalscorers (McTominay’s stormer aside), and neither are that great at passing.
——
If you go through our 5 central midfielders and set out all the pluses and the negatives, you come back with a really annoying set where most of them have things they’re very good at, but then some things very visibly weak at. There’s nobody truly rounded in our midfield, or nobody who is truly a specialist (Matic probably comes closest, but he has more age and mobility concerns now).

Agreed, I remember years ago joking that if we could only combine certain players together you'd get just what we need before realising that's one of the differences between the top level players and others.

I think teams have wisened up to some of the weakness that McT and Fred have as a combination, which I think is compounded by AWB as well, as you have 3 players in important/key roles for transitioning play and retaining possession who aren't great on the ball. I don't think Fred is as bad as McT/AWB and on his own I think he's fine but the 3 of them together I think just puts us the backfoot massively.

If our attack was stronger then it might not be such an issue but I don't think we have a great attack in that whilst they're good individual players I don't think they really work together effectively as a unit and therefore having such limited progression play coming from midfield and right back when we set up like this makes it even tougher for us.

The other thing I'd add is I'm not actually sure that this set up really gives us that much defensive cover over purely having more bodies back. I don't think they take up good defensive positions or retain possession well but rather rely on their physical strengths and this can be exploited where teams move the ball quickly. It's not like by having McT/Fred as a combo we then see that Bruno or the wide attackers can stay up the pitch, actually I'd say our attack track back well. I do actually quite like Fred as a player although don't think he's a top midfielder, I just don't think he works with McT and AWB as well.

I think this is a test for Ole and what he does. Personally, assuming no training/attitude issues, I'd like to see VDB tried alongside Fred assuming we need to control what games Matic can play as from what I've seen of him I think he's someone who can keep the ball and move it well and don't think he'd shirk defensively. If we can keep the ball better then we might not need that defensive cover as much. It might not be the answer but I think we know now that McT/Fred with things as they are in attack isn't a great combination. It's clearly not so bad that it can never be played but I think we need to either upgrade that or our attack to really push on further.

 

[joemacwalls]

Yeah I think you are right, but I think with the firepower we have and with two creative midfielders behind a front 3, we would have a better chance of outscoring the bigger teams than keeping them out when playing two.

But yeah, a top level CDM would be perfect. A peak Carrick or even Fletcher prior illness level would be ideal. Wouldn't mind Declan Rice, but he seems to be Chelsea bound.

 

[DWelbz19]

@Ash_G agree with a lot of that — especially the issue of our midfield and AWB in the build-up phase. That, plus your next point about our attacking being potent individually but not in a collective force is why we look so potent some games on the counter and look set to score 3/4/5 a game, and then others where we look absolutely clueless.

We have good quality in the squad, generally speaking. The next step is (a mixture) of adding more quality, and also fixing the flaws we currently have through tactical tweaks.

 

[Ash_G]

@Ash_G agree with a lot of that — especially the issue of our midfield and AWB in the build-up phase. That, plus your next point about our attacking being potent individually but not in a collective force is why we look so potent some games on the counter and look set to score 3/4/5 a game, and then others where we look absolutely clueless.

We have good quality in the squad, generally speaking. The next step is (a mixture) of adding more quality, and also fixing the flaws we currently have through tactical tweaks.

Agreed, I think this is where Ole needs to show that he can get more out of the squad and the team then relying on the individual quality of our players in attack which is what I think we too heavily rely on. That's not me saying that Ole has had no impact on the team but I think he needs to up the dial more as I can't believe we're seeing the best out of our attacking players regardless of the problems behind them. That said if we can also figure out how to retain possession and transition attacks quicker then that will also help.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

Both are comfortably good enough to justify a place in our squad.

There shouldn’t be room for both in our best 11, however.

 

[Brad2020]

Unfortunately until United get a better center back pairing and a quality CDM, Oli is stuck with having two play to defensive midfielders.

Fred is crucial for now, but I don't understand why McTominay can't be replaced by Van De Beek? He plays a good defensive game, and offers more creativity going forward.

 

[Mr PG]

Man it’s just crazy to bench vdb or matic for Mctominay. Against seville in the semi final we played Pogba and Fred deep and dominated the game if not for defense letting us down.
Not even an attempt to change earlier and Ole wonders why he always comes up short in the situations.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Unfortunately until United get a better center back pairing and a quality CDM, Oli is stuck with having two play to defensive midfielders.

Fred is crucial for now, but I don't understand why McTominay can't be replaced by Van De Beek? He plays a good defensive game, and offers more creativity going forward.

Probably because of the Leeds performance

 

[vva]

André-Frank Zambo Anguissa is strong DMC with experience in EPL.
If we can get him, our defense will look much better.

 

[Isotope]

Sir Alex realised that the modern game need a good DM that can pass, if ever want to compete with the rest of European giants. He then bought Carrick, and the rest was history. We had the best period of time with Carrick there, instead of Keano, a superior player to Carrick as footballer.