McTominay and Fred, do we need both?

[MU655]

McTominay makes fewer passes because he plays on the right side of midfield. Fred, meanwhile, is usually supported by Shaw/Maguire/Rashford/Bruno/Pogba/Martial (all our most progressive players) naturally drifting into his part of the pitch.

Here are all the recent passmaps I can find of the double pivot. They not only show how lopsided we are in possession, but also how comparatively isolated McTominay usually is on the right:

Spoiler: Leeds

Spoiler: Liverpool

Spoiler: Villa

Spoiler: Southampton

This is assuming that McTominay isn't a major part of the problem, though. To be honest, I think Fernandes drifts over to the left a lot because of Fred, who loves playing passes forward through the opposition. He is a very forward-thinking player.

I am assuming the darker/thicker the arrow means the more passes. If so you can see Fred fires it into Fernandes a lot, and I think that creates a natural swaying to the left as Fernandes knows he will always look for the pass. I don't think that trust is there with McTominay.

I mean even the game with Pogba on the right, McTominay still failed to pass it forward much. Most of the passes were between Pogba and Bissaka on the right, and seemingly few went to McTominay. Why? The pattern between Bissaka and McTominay seems to be the same as the one between Shaw and Fred in that game, but his forward passing is clearly lacking.

McTominay has a tendency to hide, maybe not deliberately, but he isn't great at positioning himself to make himself available for a pass.

 

[city-puma]

Firstly, I have only gone for PL stats. The majority of the games are made up of them, so I think it is the best for determining the use of a player. Cup competitions are alright, but they can have very weak opposition or you can be knocked out of them at any stage. With the PL, you have to play every game every season, so it just makes sense to me.

Secondly, I prefer to go for non-sub games myself as it gives a clearer picture of how they are over a longer period of time and ignore games that are already won. So, I haven't actually included sub games in the stats. Burnley etc. were so short there is no point.

But I have tried with 90 minutes and sub appearances and it doesn't make a lot of difference. He will be 45th in passes per 90 minutes. I have only included those that have played more than 8 full games.

Fred - 65.4 passes per 90 minutes (22nd)
Pogba - 71.2 passes per 90 minutes (16th)
McTominay - 51.2 passes per 90 minutes (45th)

Without sub appearances (pretty much comparing first-team midfielders below), he ranks 29th.

Fred - 66 passes per 90 minutes (12th)
Pogba - 71.6 passes per 90 minutes (8th)
McTominay - 51.3 passes per 90 minutes (29th) - out of 50

The differences are very similar. A 15 pass difference exists in both cases between Fred and McTominay, and he still ranks in the same spot as he did before.

Long ball accuracy won't be impacted as it is based on total long balls, anyway.

Overall, I think it confirms that he is lacking compared to the level of the midfielder we actually need. I mean people might think 15 fewer passes than Fred per match isn't much, but it does come to 570 less if they played every game in the season.



Without context, yes, but you can build a pattern with stats. Now, if Pogba, Fred, and Matic were doing little better in terms of accuracy and number of passes, you would have to question whether other areas are causing the problems. But when the stats of one player amongst four stands out like a sore thumb, the likelihood is that the issue lies with that player. McTominay is the anomaly here.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a use, by the way, just that he isn't first-team material. If we want to sustain Premier League challenges and actually threaten in the CL, I would say he needs to be changed.

I think you probably misunderstood what I mean the context. Individual stats are misleading if you treat them without consideration of the individual’s role. As you said, put up all our midfielders’ stats together to compare. For me, I will think it from different angles. One is similar to what you reasoned that the individual COULD be less capable. The other for me is he has been instructed to play a role which resulted in the less flaring stats. There are other angles as the others have mentioned. These different angles are the context we need to consider when trying to interpret the data. By looking though one angle, the conclusion is normally wrong.

 

[Dante]

McTominay has a tendency to hide, maybe not deliberately, but he isn't great at positioning himself to make himself available for a pass.

Nonsense.

 

[city-puma]

This is assuming that McTominay isn't a major part of the problem, though. To be honest, I think Fernandes drifts over to the left a lot because of Fred, who loves playing passes forward through the opposition. He is a very forward-thinking player.

I am assuming the darker/thicker the arrow means the more passes. If so you can see Fred fires it into Fernandes a lot, and I think that creates a natural swaying to the left as Fernandes knows he will always look for the pass. I don't think that trust is there with McTominay.

I mean even the game with Pogba on the right, McTominay still failed to pass it forward much. Most of the passes were between Pogba and Bissaka on the right, and seemingly few went to McTominay. Why? The pattern between Bissaka and McTominay seems to be the same as the one between Shaw and Fred in that game, but his forward passing is clearly lacking.

McTominay has a tendency to hide, maybe not deliberately, but he isn't great at positioning himself to make himself available for a pass.

One way to think about this is that our left side are just simply too great with the players we have, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, Rashford. But on the right side, we don’t have a proper RW. It makes the right side less cohesive between the lines. Thus, for certain games Ole chose not to use McFred dual pivot but a diamond. For lesser opponents, if we set up McFred system, Greenwood can do very well on that side but he is not very natural on that position.
Pogba normally suits a slower paced play and he can’t do the regular winger’s stuffs. When he is on right, we are therefore having a diamond setup without McT, and we are slow in transition and rely more on long Hollywood pass and individual brilliance around the opponent’s box.

 

[Borys]

McTominay has less touches because he is more conservative in his positioning, meaning he doesn't follow the ball like Fred does (who is a proper B2B). Whether that is due to instructions or his decisions is hard to tell, a mix of both probably. Second factor we usually go for Fred-McTominay in big games so he will see less of the ball obviously. Fred was more often used against mid table teams as well.
Third factor is he stays on the right - this has been already explained. When we play against packed defense, the vast majority of play happens on the left.

 

[Augustus Gloop]

If we are going to stick with McTominay as a first-team midfielder, he has to get more involved in possession in games where not much space is available. His average passes completed per game is at 34.3 in the PL, which is very low for a midfielder in his position, particularly for a club like Manchester United.

In comparison, Fred is on 57.9 per game and Pogba is on 53.6 per game in the PL. Of players who have played 8 games or more, Fred is 12th and Pogba is 16th in terms of midfielders and they are surrounded by those in the top teams (Man City, Tottenham, Liverpool, Chelsea etc.). This is the expected contribution of the top team's midfielders.

On the other hand, McTominay is 49th, which is what you would expect of midfielders at Sheffield United and Burnley, judging by the players a couple of places above him.

But, he is supposed to be a box-to-box midfielder some people argue, so are his dribbling stats higher from charging up the pitch? No, in fact, he is only 38th in terms of attempted dribbles with 0.9 per game. He does tend to have a high success rate though with 0.7 successful per game. Fred attempts 1.1 per game (31st) with 1 successful per game. Both have a very high success percentage in terms of dribbling, and very rarely fail. Even without stats, you can tell both of them are quite good at doing this by just watching.

Whilst the attempted dribbles from them isn't low for deeper-lying midfielders (e.g. Rodri has 1 attempted with 0.8 success), it could do with a bit of an improvement for both. But it is more of an issue with McTominay because he is not making up for the lack of passing with another area of the game. If he was providing an outlet in the way of dribbling as opposed to passing, it wouldn't be such an issue. But he doesn't do that.

People have said his long ball passing is good, so can he provide a reliable outlet with that way. He has 43.75% long ball accuracy and attempts 3.2 per game. The accuracy is quite low in the PL with Rodri having 70% with 6.2 attempted per game, Pogba 68% with 6 attempted per game, Neves with 68% and 8.4 attempts, and Thiago 76% with 8 attempted, and Fred having 63% with 5.2 attempted. The likelihood is that accuracy % decreases with higher attempts, so it is likely that McTominay's will reduce with more long passes.

I mean even midfielders at lower teams are posting higher percentages, so I don't think it is pretty reading for a first-team midfielder at Manchester United. He seems to be posting midfielder stats of far lower teams at Manchester United.

What does any of this ultimately mean? We’re second in the league and Scott has started the majority of these games. He’s had one particularly poor game all season (Leicester away) in which he was anonymous, I imagine because he was suffering from the groin injury he picked up against Leeds; and he was taken off against Arsenal the other week just after 30 minutes due to injury. This will skewer his passing stats.

And watching him with my very own eyes, Scott is an extremely good dribbler and far more press resistant than both Fred and Pogba. I don’t care what the stats say in regards to these two facets, it’s clear to see.

You don’t “think it is pretty reading for a first-team midfielder at Manchester United.” - you need to stop dissecting the stats and absorb the games. Scott’s only getting warmed up and he has already posted last season’s goal tally (5). He’s only improving.

 

[MU655]

Nonsense.

Do you know he receives one of the fewest amounts of passes in our team? Someone posted something on a thread before showing his numbers being oddly low. If it isn't him not being available for a pass then he must be just being ignored. It must be one or the other. You can even see that he struggles to position himself in tighter games, and other players are forced to find other options

What does any of this ultimately mean? We’re second in the league and Scott has started the majority of these games. He’s had one particularly poor game all season (Leicester away) in which he was anonymous, I imagine because he was suffering from the groin injury he picked up against Leeds; and he was taken off against Arsenal the other week just after 30 minutes due to injury. This will skewer his passing stats.

And watching him with my very own eyes, Scott is an extremely good dribbler and far more press resistant than both Fred and Pogba. I don’t care what the stats say in regards to these two facets, it’s clear to see.

You don’t “think it is pretty reading for a first-team midfielder at Manchester United.” - you need to stop dissecting the stats and absorb the games. Scott’s only getting warmed up and he has already posted last season’s goal tally (5). He’s only improving.

I did one by minutes in another post, also, and it didn't actually make any difference. He was still 45th amongst all CMs and DMs. This would have taken into account him not playing every minute, so the Arsenal game wouldn't be an issue.

Ultimately, I think it means that we aren't at a level to sustain a challenge. City looks like they could waltz away with Premier League this season with the way they are playing, despite us winning. I think we are quite a bit behind them, and so improvement is needed. We are not near good enough to challenge for CL as of yet and I think we will fall away from a title challenge.

I think McTominay's position is just one of the most important areas of improvement, after right-wing, to make a team that can really challenge season on season. I think the difference could be massive, but McTominay will still have a use, just not as our first-team midfielder.

I think he has been pretty invisible in more games than Leicester; the stats just back it up. He was poor against Aston Villa and there was another game as well. There were three games in a row that he started where he only made about 20 passes, but Fred made at least 50 in two and 70 against Leicester.

The goals have also all come against open opposition. Leeds barely had a midfield; Southampton ended with 9 men; Watford just isn't very good. He doesn't have the same impact when playing without space, which most of the games are. He has his uses, but his impact whilst in possession is too low for me.

 

[city-puma]

Do you know he receives one of the fewest amounts of passes in our team? Someone posted something on a thread before showing his numbers being oddly low. If it isn't him not being available for a pass then he must be just being ignored. It must be one or the other. You can even see that he struggles to position himself in tighter games, and other players are forced to find other options


I did one by minutes in another post, also, and it didn't actually make any difference. He was still 45th amongst all CMs and DMs. This would have taken into account him not playing every minute, so the Arsenal game wouldn't be an issue.

Ultimately, I think it means that we aren't at a level to sustain a challenge. City looks like they could waltz away with Premier League this season with the way they are playing, despite us winning. I think we are quite a bit behind them, and so improvement is needed. We are not near good enough to challenge for CL as of yet and I think we will fall away from a title challenge.

I think McTominay's position is just one of the most important areas of improvement, after right-wing, to make a team that can really challenge season on season. I think the difference could be massive, but McTominay will still have a use, just not as our first-team midfielder.

I think he has been pretty invisible in more games than Leicester; the stats just back it up. He was poor against Aston Villa and there was another game as well. There were three games in a row that he started where he only made about 20 passes, but Fred made at least 50 in two and 70 against Leicester.

The goals have also all come against open opposition. Leeds barely had a midfield; Southampton ended with 9 men; Watford just isn't very good. He doesn't have the same impact when playing without space, which most of the games are. He has his uses, but his impact whilst in possession is too low for me.

From what you described, I am not very sure if you watch the games McT played. At least, we seemly watched the different games.

 

[OrcaFat]

Nonsense.

Not nonsense. I have noticed this too. It was especially bad against Leicester.

 

[MadDogg]

Nonsense.

He doesn't always do it, but he does do it far too often for liking. I swear his 'performance' (if you could even call it that) against Leicester was the worst case of a midfielder hiding from the ball I've ever seen, and a week later against Villa he wasn't much better. He spent pretty much the entire match jogging along behind an opposition player making it impossible to pass it to him which is why Fred ended up with almost three times the amount of passes. He has been slowly improving a little bit each game since then and he was actually quite good against Southampton, but he needs to do that a lot more often (them being down to 10 the entire match obviously made it easy for him).

I rate McTominay's potential and I hope he achieves it, but right now he is often a weakness for the side when we have the ball. He doesn't show himself to receive the ball enough, and when he does get on the ball he doesn't do enough with it. The odd good match against a 10 men Southampton and a suicidal Leeds doesn't change that. The fact that Fred, who himself is about the minimum we should be expecting on the ball, is quite clearly better in that regard says it all. McTominay has shown he can do it, now he has to do it consistently.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

McTominay has potential but on current form he’s bit inconsistent when utilises his strength. While Fred utilises his strength more consistent this season. Not something I have concern with since McTominay is still considered young for midfielder.

But when you are talking about McTominay best games this season like Leeds and Southampton for example, and imagine if he can start performing the same quality as those best games more on consistent basis, he will become a very fine player for us so there is potential in him.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Neither Keane nor Vieira was a DM -

That is only if you buy the notion that a Makelele type of player is the embodiment of a true DM.

In my opinion Keane was mostly the main ball winner in our midfield, main fireman every where on pitch, protector in chief of our defence and the man linking our defence and attacking units together. He basically played the role very similar to Rijkaard of Milan. a proper link man (anchor man as the called them back in the day). The actual way a proper defensive midfielder is supposed to operate. An actually playing midfielder with greater defensive ability and responsibility than the rest. Never a purely destructive player.

Personally, I always marvel where the notion that a defensive midfielder was just a purely destructive player came from. For some reason old school Catenaccio sweepers who are essentially third center halves stationed just between their center backs breaking up play and passing 5 yards to more attacking colleagues and covering overlapping/ out of position defender, are constantly mistaken for midfielders......Possibly it stems from how Brazil in the mid 90s switched style to using 2 destructive players to let their fullbacks fly forward with abandon and their attacking players concentrate on attacking and not tracking back...... I dont know...

....our CBs could function with a single DM if we changed our tactical style to a more offensive possession based one but that's not what Ole wants. We give away possession way too much to play with the inverted triangle, it'd probably be more entertaining and I think we'd score more and concede more against the weaker teams but it would be carnage against the better teams.

I don't believe the set up would matter,. Our starting cbs pairing is severely problematic that we'd have to literally employ a 3rd center back to help them out. Yet we'd still be vulnerable because they are both not good in defending wider areas, and our fullbacks would not get any defensive cover when they advance.

That is why i dont see why anyone thinks signing another defensive midfielder would solve anything. Midfield personnel is really not the problem. Center defence is.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That is only if you buy the notion that a Makelele type of player is the embodiment of a true DM.

In my opinion Keane was mostly the main ball winner in our midfield, main fireman every where on pitch, protector in chief of our defence and the man linking our defence and attacking units together. He basically played the role very similar to Rijkaard of Milan. a proper link man (anchor man as the called them back in the day). The actual way a proper defensive midfielder is supposed to operate. An actually playing midfielder with greater defensive ability and responsibility than the rest. Never a purely destructive player.

Personally, I always marvel where the notion that a defensive midfielder was just a purely destructive player came from. For some reason old school Catenaccio sweepers who are essentially third center halves stationed just between their center backs breaking up play and passing 5 yards to more attacking colleagues and covering overlapping/ out of position defender, are constantly mistaken for midfielders......Possibly it stems from how Brazil in the mid 90s switched style to using 2 destructive players to let their fullbacks fly forward with abandon and their attacking players concentrate on attacking and not tracking back...... I dont know...

I don't believe the set up would matter,. Our starting cbs pairing is severely problematic that we'd have to literally employ a 3rd center back to help them out. Yet we'd still be vulnerable because they are both not good in defending wider areas, and our fullbacks would not get any defensive cover when they advance.

That is why i dont see why anyone thinks signing another defensive midfielder would solve anything. Midfield personnel is really not the problem. Center defence is.

Not at all, look at Busquets - he's nothing like Makelele. It takes a lot of tactical ability - I think the PL has just created the idea of the 'destroyer' but Scholes used to sit on his own, even a player like Shelvey could sit on their own and they aren't that type of player. I agree thought people try to be too clever with naming positions although a sole CM who sits deep is for for a DM, whatever their skillset.

We only have Matic who can play DM alone so I don't get how we'd know unless we try it? I agree re CB issue with pace/mobility but Maguire's going nowhere and he's always going to be relatively slow. Good DM and a keeper who sweeps a little would alleviate a lot of the issues.

 

[thesheriffjw]

Fred is an utter donkey.

He has no first touch.
He wants too many touches
He cannot pass forward
He cannot shoot

What he offers i do not know?

 

[M Bison]

Fred is an utter donkey.

He has no first touch.
He wants too many touches
He cannot pass forward
He cannot shoot

What he offers i do not know?

You need to watch more games if you can’t see what he does.

 

[Kazi]

They should rotate next to Pogs for now

 

[Dante]

Fred is an utter donkey.

He has no first touch.
He wants too many touches
He cannot pass forward
He cannot shoot

What he offers i do not know?

He has passion and runs hard.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Not at all, look at Busquets - he's nothing like Makelele. It takes a lot of tactical ability - I think the PL has just created the idea of the 'destroyer' but Scholes used to sit on his own, even a player like Shelvey could sit on their own and they aren't that type of player. I agree thought people try to be too clever with naming positions although a sole CM who sits deep is for for a DM, whatever their skillset.

We only have Matic who can play DM alone so I don't get how we'd know unless we try it? I agree re CB issue with pace/mobility but Maguire's going nowhere and he's always going to be relatively slow. Good DM and a keeper who sweeps a little would alleviate a lot of the issues.

Maguire and lindleoff need to be slit up.
Even matic at his best has had issue protecting them on the lonesome.

Together they are a liability. They are way to similar which is the problem. With their lack of pace compounding the problem. Alongside a strong, aggressive pacy partner they'd both be excellent.

im hopefully we will sort that out next summer.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Maguire and lindleoff need to be slit up.
Even matic at his best has had issue protecting them on the lonesome.

Together they are a liability. They are way to similar which is the problem. With their lack of pace compounding the problem. Alongside a strong, aggressive pacy partner they'd both be excellent.

im hopefully we will sort that out next summer.

Agreed and their lack of pace in a high line has always been an issue (as I said). I do think signing a top DM would take a lot of pressure off them, and maybe allow them to sit slightly deeper, but it's also on the GK and DDG loves to stay in his box.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Fred plays like an Everton midfielder, just a runner and no ability on the ball. He has no physical presence, embarrassing at shooting, mistake prone at passing. We need more from our midfielders.

 

[OrcaFat]

I’m starting to get optimistic about this pairing. I think both are improving individually. Playing together more and more could see them form a well balanced partnership. I see McT as the 6 and Fred as the 8, loosely speaking. But Fred needs to drop in when McT runs forward with the ball (which he does fantastically well).

 

[golden_blunder]

I’m starting to get optimistic about this pairing. I think both are improving individually. Playing together more and more could see them form a well balanced partnership. I see McT as the 6 and Fred as the 8, loosely speaking. But Fred needs to drop in when McT runs forward with the ball (which he does fantastically well).

I actually see them the other way round, Fred is the one coming and getting the ball deep whilst McT is the one making runs forward which plays more to his strengths as an all rounder 8

 

[Martialfc]

Mctominay is better than Fred in my opinion. He can head tackle and shoot. Mctominay flaw to his game is that he often struggles with passing. He’s basically a ball winning box to box who will chip in with a few goals. I’ve been impressed with Mctominay this season I think he’s really come on.

 

[SteveCoppellFan]

Watching the game last night and all i noticed was the amount of times Fred was on the ball and promptly gave it away time and time again.

I would use VDB in that position, at least we would get him on the ball a whole lot more and he would give it away far far less than Fred.

Fred seems to spend most of his time chasing a ball he's just given away.

 

[Giggsforever]

Mctominay is better than Fred in my opinion. He can head tackle and shoot. Mctominay flaw to his game is that he often struggles with passing. He’s basically a ball winning box to box who will chip in with a few goals. I’ve been impressed with Mctominay this season I think he’s really come on.

He has over 87% pass success, and his passing is a lot more forward minded and long diagonal than Fred. His passing is good.

 

[simplyared]

We certainly don't need both on the pitch at the same time. Can't see in any way a balance with having both. MacT is so much more valuable to us and considering other midfield options (VDB, Matic for example) then Fred should be way down the pecking order imo.

 

[lost7]

McTominay is in good form at the moment and if he were to play around this level consistently, he should be a nailed on starter. The problem is that his passing has been very unreliable in the past, but let's hope he's turned a corner there.

I would actually like to see more of the McTominay/Pogba pivot that we saw for half an hour against Everton or against Liverpool in the Cup. I've always thought we'd get exposed with that type of midfield but actually we looked pretty good on both of those games

 

[Ekeke]

McTominay is in good form at the moment and if he were to play around this level consistently, he should be a nailed on starter. The problem is that his passing has been very unreliable in the past, but let's hope he's turned a corner there.

I would actually like to see more of the McTominay/Pogba pivot that we saw for half an hour against Everton or against Liverpool in the Cup. I've always thought we'd get exposed with that type of midfield but actually we looked pretty good on both of those games

Fred's passing is also unreliable so its less of a problem. McTom clearly provides more going forward with his goal threat

 

[passing-wind]

Nonsense.

It's actually true Mctommimay doesn't always drop into space sometimes he positions himself in a way to be at the end of the build up rather than to contribute. It's hard to indicate if it's a coaching directive or a lack of confidence to distribute the ball.

 

[Dante]

It's actually true Mctommimay doesn't always drop into space sometimes he positions himself in a way to be at the end of the build up rather than to contribute. It's hard to indicate if it's a coaching directive or a lack of confidence to distribute the ball.

...or nonsense.

 

[Zlatans Knee]

The only occasion that Fred contributes something positive is when we are playing a team that has a decent amount of possession. He is useless against a low block. McT at least contributes with goals and has a decent long ball on him.
Fred is not good enough for this club. If we lose Pogba in the summer our CM situation will be dire once again.

 

[bosnian_red]

Fred is an utter donkey.

He has no first touch.
He wants too many touches
He cannot pass forward
He cannot shoot

What he offers i do not know?

He has a mediocre first touch but his dribbling is really good actually. Passing is decent, short passing is good but long passing non existent. Shooting horrendous. Pressing brilliant, work rate excellent, awareness to pick up the ball and play quick 1-2's excellent, positioning quite good... He's almost a brilliant deep lying midfielder and almost the perfect partner for McTominay. Stylistically he is a good partner and fits the role, but his passing has no range and his touch a bit too sloppy. Ifs and buts, but if Fred had a good passing range (and then the willingness to do those passes), with a more refined touch and consistency in his passes, then he'd be pretty much the perfect partner there. It's just frustrating though as the range/vision/touch are such key aspects to the deep lying midfielder and he's just sloppy with it. It opens up the field being able to spread the ball around and what we lack.

 

[city-puma]

I’m starting to get optimistic about this pairing. I think both are improving individually. Playing together more and more could see them form a well balanced partnership. I see McT as the 6 and Fred as the 8, loosely speaking. But Fred needs to drop in when McT runs forward with the ball (which he does fantastically well).

Have you noticed that whenever we rest Fred for a game or even half game, Fred will struggle a little bit at the beginning when playing again?
It’s very odd. It’s just like that we need to always play him without any rest to bring out his best consistently.

 

[city-puma]

He has a mediocre first touch but his dribbling is really good actually. Passing is decent, short passing is good but long passing non existent. Shooting horrendous. Pressing brilliant, work rate excellent, awareness to pick up the ball and play quick 1-2's excellent, positioning quite good... He's almost a brilliant deep lying midfielder and almost the perfect partner for McTominay. Stylistically he is a good partner and fits the role, but his passing has no range and his touch a bit too sloppy. Ifs and buts, but if Fred had a good passing range (and then the willingness to do those passes), with a more refined touch and consistency in his passes, then he'd be pretty much the perfect partner there. It's just frustrating though as the range/vision/touch are such key aspects to the deep lying midfielder and he's just sloppy with it. It opens up the field being able to spread the ball around and what we lack.

I think Fred’s first touch is superb. It’s when the ball comes high, he has issues because of his small size. He has quick feet. His dribbling is very good (as we expect from a Brazil player) and his ball-carrying burst run is not explosively quick, but is often enough to pull the nerve out of the opponents and exciting to watch. His long range pass is not superb. But his short and mid-range passes are assured and very creative in the mid and upper thirds. His mobility is superb with or without ball. The time when we can effectively high press the opponents normally starts with him suddenly pushing up the field to outnumber the the opponents at the area of fight. The other players around seem very cooperative with good chemistry to join him to form a small triangle or square for the pressing. It’s often seen Rashford, Shaw, Bruno, and him robbing the ball off from the opponents like that on the top left of the pitch.

 

[Alfie092]

Aside from Pogba, McTominay is probably our next best number 6 based on his current form and should be starting ahead of Fred if you had to choose between the 2.

Would like us to try a double-pivot of VDB and McTominay against WBA on the weekend.

 

[city-puma]

McTominay is in good form at the moment and if he were to play around this level consistently, he should be a nailed on starter. The problem is that his passing has been very unreliable in the past, but let's hope he's turned a corner there.

I would actually like to see more of the McTominay/Pogba pivot that we saw for half an hour against Everton or against Liverpool in the Cup. I've always thought we'd get exposed with that type of midfield but actually we looked pretty good on both of those games

I feel the same about that pair. However, at least in that game, that partnership started a bit slow. It’s a common phenomenon when pogba plays in general. But the partnership grew to the game pretty quickly. We were solid and dictated the game after it. I would like to see more of it in the games against those low-block teams. It’s pity that pogba was forced off due to muscle injury.

 

[lsd]

Not convinced we need either of we are really serious about winning things but McTominay is by far the better option of the two

 

[OrcaFat]

I actually see them the other way round, Fred is the one coming and getting the ball deep whilst McT is the one making runs forward which plays more to his strengths as an all rounder 8

I wouldn’t mind that at all but Fred is such a terrier. He was chasing down in their right back area at times.

The main problem with the partnership is positional discipline, and positional intelligence, although both could improve their passing. I like McT facing forward and carrying the ball from deep and prefer Fred pressing and tearing about the pitch.

Whatever they do, I think they need to develop an understanding that means there’s always one of them to shield (and provide an outlet for) the CBs.

I said before that McT has me hoping he’ll turn out like Yaya Toure (started games as a 6 but came forward as the opponents tired later in the game and caused quite a bit of mayhem). But, still, that would require Fred to be alert and drop in / drop back.

Looks to me like those two just get told to play midfield and “express themselves”. That’s not a criticism of the coaching and, whilst unsophisticated, it may be the best way to get those two players performing.

 

[golden_blunder]

I wouldn’t mind that at all but Fred is such a terrier. He was chasing down in their right back area at times.

The main problem with the partnership is positional discipline, and positional intelligence, although both could improve their passing. I like McT facing forward and carrying the ball from deep and prefer Fred pressing and tearing about the pitch.

Whatever they do, I think they need to develop an understanding that means there’s always one of them to shield (and provide an outlet for) the CBs.

I said before that McT has me hoping he’ll turn out like Yaya Toure (started games as a 6 but came forward as the opponents tired later in the game and caused quite a bit of mayhem). But, still, that would require Fred to be alert and drop in / drop back.

Looks to me like those two just get told to play midfield and “express themselves”. That’s not a criticism of the coaching and, whilst unsophisticated, it may be the best way to get those two players performing.

I get where you’re coming from. I do like them as a partnership, they already appear to have an understanding and even though people would rather have Pogba in there somehow I always think the midfield has not only a better balance but more urgency when they both play together.

 

[MadDogg]

He has over 87% pass success, and his passing is a lot more forward minded and long diagonal than Fred. His passing is good.

McTominay does tend to do the long diagonal pass to the winger/fullback more often than Fred, but otherwise Fred tends to play the more attacking passes and create more goal scoring opportunities. He also passes it long more often (both in total and percentage).

For instance, going by fbref.com stats, Fred has attempted 183 long passes in the league this season while McTominay only 117. Fred is also ahead in pretty much every other passing stat, passing significantly more often, more forward passes, more long passes and a higher success rate. He's also contributed (via passing, dribbling, winning the ball, etc) directly to us taking 40 shots this season while McTominay has only contributed to 21. Fred has played an extra 90 minutes but that's obviously not going to explain as large a gap as there is.