McTominay and Fred, do we need both?

OrcaFat

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McTominay does tend to do the long diagonal pass to the winger/fullback more often than Fred, but otherwise Fred tends to play the more attacking passes and create more goal scoring opportunities. He also passes it long more often (both in total and percentage).

For instance, going by fbref.com stats, Fred has attempted 183 long passes in the league this season while McTominay only 117. Fred is also ahead in pretty much every other passing stat, passing significantly more often, more forward passes, more long passes and a higher success rate. He's also contributed (via passing, dribbling, winning the ball, etc) directly to us taking 40 shots this season while McTominay has only contributed to 21. Fred has played an extra 90 minutes but that's obviously not going to explain as large a gap as there is.
For the most part Fred has been better all round than McT.

But McT has had some very poor games where he barely did anything right. It might be true that McT in form is better than Fred in form and I tend to feel McT will prove the better player in the long run, passing, creating and, of course, scoring included.
 

MadDogg

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For the most part Fred has been better all round than McT.

But McT has had some very poor games where he barely did anything right. It might be true that McT in form is better than Fred in form and I tend to feel McT will prove the better player in the long run, passing, creating and, of course, scoring included.
That's exactly how I see it. McTominay has had a few really good games and an argument can be made that they are better than Fred's good games, but Fred's average performance this season (and last season) is better.

McTominay has a few attributes which are great for a midfielder to have as extras. Power, aerial ability and goal scoring most obviously. But that's what they are - extras. Some of the most important aspects are things which are probably his biggest weaknesses - movement to make yourself an option to receive the ball, and ability to use the ball once you get it. His average performance in both aspects are clearly behind our other three midfielders.

I really do hope McTominay kicks on and improves those aspects as he's one of the players I most want to 'make it'. Not just because the extras he brings will be great to have, but he'd likely be our long term captain which is a role I think he'd be good at.
 

OrcaFat

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The lack of genuine quality sometimes shows and I think we saw it today. Generally poor in possession and sorely lacking composure and leadership when it was needed.

But I still like these guys. There’ll always be room for them in the squad.
 

croadyman

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The lack of genuine quality sometimes shows and I think we saw it today. Generally poor in possession and sorely lacking composure and leadership when it was needed.

But I still like these guys. There’ll always be room for them in the squad.
Yeah they should be squad players but not starting games regularly that's for sure
 

MU655

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Funnily enough, our midfield isn't operating much differently to what Liverpool's was last season in terms of creativity, defence, and pressing.

I think its actually the attack and defence that our real issues. Very little creativity in the front three in comparison. Right-back, very low creativity. And the defence can't defend.
 

BlahRules

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Yesterday's match we did not need both McTominay or Fred nor do I think Donny was the right player. We needed a player that spray the ball from right to left and as the opposition are playing compact football but the only player that can consistently do it is Pogba.

I believe we should have pushed Bruno to an 8 and he can spread the ball as well be able to ghost in the box when required but I don't know why Ole is not flexible with his formation.
 

Ludens the Red

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Bump.

Honest players, they work hard, they do a job but feck me if ever a game showed the limitations of the pair of them it was today. Just not enough guile and technical skill to their play. Fred and his failed dribbles and McTominays passing today in particular was just so well short of the required level. There’s too much pressure on just Bruno to create those chances from midfield.
I actually think our need in this area of the pitch surpasses our need for a centre back.
 

poleglass red

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I thought they did their job. The problem was the 4 players in front of them.
one of the problems is they are too often, too far behind our attacking players to support them. They are so concerned with protecting the 2 central defenders, which they do well enough. We have to be more proactive in these games against the big 6. Chelsea had Giroud up top yesterday, we really didn't need that defensive approach. We can't sustain pressure when our 2 central mids are set up so defensively. Lack of pace is always our issue with our central defenders, but Giroud isn't a player that will exploit that weakness.
 

Zen86

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one of the problems is they are too often, too far behind our attacking players to support them. They are so concerned with protecting the 2 central defenders, which they do well enough. We have to be more proactive in these games against the big 6. Chelsea had Giroud up top yesterday, we really didn't need that defensive approach. We can't sustain pressure when our 2 central mids are set up so defensively. Lack of pace is always our issue with our central defenders, but Giroud isn't a player that will exploit that weakness.
I disagree, I don't think they're too far behind our attackers at all. Both players are very mobile and can often be seen bombing up the pitch as part of the attack, McT has contributed several goals from getting himself forward. Over a year ago you could argue they were too defensive, but they've demonstrably been working on this and both players are becoming much more comfortable getting forward. Yesterday's lack of creativity and fluidity is with Rashford, Greenwood, James, and Bruno.
 

DannyCAFC

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McTominay is nothing more than a Tom Cleverley level player, the type of player that will be eventually phased out and end up at West Ham or the likes of as United continue to improve their midfield.
 

poleglass red

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I disagree, I don't think they're too far behind our attackers at all. Both players are very mobile and can often be seen bombing up the pitch as part of the attack, McT has contributed several goals from getting himself forward. Over a year ago you could argue they were too defensive, but they've demonstrably been working on this and both players are becoming much more comfortable getting forward. Yesterday's lack of creativity and fluidity is with Rashford, Greenwood, James, and Bruno.
yesterday for me they were much too defensive, they actually did an analysis on the feed I watched and Scholes highlighted the gap between them and attack. At times it was nearly like having 4 central defenders to match up against a target man in Giroud. That defensive set up could be needed against say a Man City but not that Chelsea team. What happens in that set up, is when Fernandes is having a poor game, we've nobody else able to play the attacking passes.
 

tjb

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In order to stay that deep, you have to be able to keep and spray possession from longer distances...or like Moussa Dembele, constantly willing to drive with the ball to make up that space in the build up...neither Mctominay or Fred does that. Mctominay can make a box to box off the ball run, but the issue we have in our big games is that neither of them can make those passes or drives to support the attacks, forcing us to look to deeper outlets, like Maguire or Lindelof to supply our full backs and attackers. In the smaller games, this is the reason why our build up is so slow. In the bigger games, its the reason why we concede possession so quickly.

Our second issue with both of them is, despite their ability to get into a rigid shape quickly close to goal, they are not really effective at recovering the ball quickly in the middle of the park. Their lack of technique is exposed in this area as when they try, a foul is usually conceded or they mistime the tackles. Yesterday, chelsea highlighted the problem. Despite having the energy, they simply don't have the touches to regain and maintain possession of a loose ball. Chelsea were consistently able to work their way out of difficult situations in their half of the pitch or when they recovered possession, due to the confidence and support their midfield provided to their back line. It's the one area we actively fail at, but our fans wrongfully blame other areas of the pitch for. AWB can hold on to possession and dribble his way out of tight situations, as can Shaw and Maguire. Yet our midfielders, who are supposed to be more technically proficient than our defenders can't even maintain possession under pressure for more than a few seconds. This forces our attackers to have to create chances from difficult situations such as quick direct balls from our defenders and yet at the end of the game you have fans asking where our attackers were.
 

Infra-red

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We need at least one of Matic or Pogba to be in the side - without them, our passing from deep is shambolic.

The problem we have is that Pogba will be sold in three/four months time and Matic has needed replacing for two years now. We need to sign a central midfielder this summer if we're to have any chance of progressing next season.
 

croadyman

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We need at least one of Matic or Pogba to be in the side - without them, our passing from deep is shambolic.

The problem we have is that Pogba will be sold in three/four months time and Matic has needed replacing for two years now. We need to sign a central midfielder this summer if we're to have any chance of progressing next season.
Yeah we do but clearly no one has told the club because looks to be zero interest in signing one
 

Nicoseth

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McTominay is nothing more than a Tom Cleverley level player, the type of player that will be eventually phased out and end up at West Ham or the likes of as United continue to improve their midfield.
Disagree, think McT has been improving constantly. Not always great, but reliable and we miss him when he's not playing. There's a reason Mourinho and Ole both love him.
 

croadyman

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Disagree, think McT has been improving constantly. Not always great, but reliable and we miss him when he's not playing. There's a reason Mourinho and Ole both love him.
Yeah he's an energetic workhorse which both of them love but greatly lacks the technical ability for a Utd midfielder
 

Nicoseth

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Yeah he's an energetic workhorse which both of them love but greatly lacks the technical ability for a Utd midfielder
Think we see him slightly differently. I'm not saying he's Zidane, but he's better technically than a lot of people give him credit for, and I think he's always getting better. I think he's much better on the ball than Fred, for example. A midfield two of Scott and Donny could be interesting, but don't think there's much chance of that.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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McTominay is nothing more than a Tom Cleverley level player, the type of player that will be eventually phased out and end up at West Ham or the likes of as United continue to improve their midfield.
I’m torn, he surprises me at times with his quick feet etc, but then I also watch him at times and think “just an athletic Darron Gibson”
 

Litch

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I am in agreement. I know some fans say give him a new contract after few good performances, but Pogba is notorious for that. He gives us 3/4 good games then gets complacent. If he wins us a trophy this season, it would be good but either way, I do feel we should build without him.
Agree...
 

croadyman

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Think we see him slightly differently. I'm not saying he's Zidane, but he's better technically than a lot of people give him credit for, and I think he's always getting better. I think he's much better on the ball than Fred, for example. A midfield two of Scott and Donny could be interesting, but don't think there's much chance of that.
Yeah will give you that he is probably better on the ball than Fred and totally agree there is no chance of seeing Donny get a start because he can't even get an opportunity when Pogba is out injured which tells you everything
 

HerbT

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Yes we do need both, they’re our best midfield partnership.
IMO you’re spot on with that.
If you play Fred & McT together for a good run of games, so that they can develop their roles as a unit, then I think you’ll have a pairing that will serve very well for 5+ years.
I recon your midfield has been repeatedly disrupted by efforts to find a role for Pogba that actually worked with any degree of reliability. But I think PP will go this summer if you get anything like a half decent offer, and that you’ll function better in the midfield thereafter.