McTominay and Fred, do we need both?

[DoomSlayer]

While you need to be pretty confident a fairly big money buy will play a lot, and Grealish is in that boat, you only improve the quality of a squad by having competition and a good group who can all produce quality.

We have quite a considerable drop off from the best player to the squaddie in quite a few positions, and we need to improve that.

So we certainly have to start with a CB, right? We barely have good cover there, most of our CBs have turned into perma-crocks. It's also an area where we could definitely strengthen the first 11 by finding a more suitable partner to Maguire.

Even our GK area is a bigger problem than, let's say, the RW/RF position. In the former we have an arguably past his peak goalkeeper, who seems to be deteriorating, whilst in the other we have a young world class talent, who seems to improve with each game he plays.

 

[roseguy64]

Both of them are completely different types of players. So the argument that we need to sell one for a specialist player is not on. We've not been linked to a DM all summer which just means Ole doesn't want a specialist DM. It's a double pivot. Plenty of times Matic is ahead of Pogba attempting to influence the play.

We are not gonna buy a specialist DM.

 

[Sandikan]

So we certainly have to start with a CB, right? We barely have good cover there, most of our CBs have turned into perma-crocks. It's also an area where we could definitely strengthen the first 11 by finding a more suitable partner to Maguire.

Even our GK area is a bigger problem then, let's say, the RW/RF position. In the former we have an arguably past his peak goalkeeper, who seems to be deteriorating, whilst in the other we have a young world class talent, who seems to improve with each game he plays.

The old school way was always building from the back, and we did a bit of that last summer.

However, I look at Liverpool, and they got their attack sorted first, and that's always given them a chance in games.

I hate the word "process" but it really is one, and all down to funds and the right player being available. We're getting a lot better at that now, and it does seem that this summer is the time for Sancho.

Him and Grealish seem to be the huge speculation. There doesn't seem much noise around centre backs. But you're quite right, that position looks very very sketchy. Jones, Rojo and Bailly don't look like even "solid" backup. And Lindelof has never struck me as starter fare.

 

[DoomSlayer]

The old school way was always building from the back, and we did a bit of that last summer.

However, I look at Liverpool, and they got their attack sorted first, and that's always given them a chance in games.

I hate the word "process" but it really is one, and all down to funds and the right player being available. We're getting a lot better at that now, and it does seem that this summer is the time for Sancho.

Him and Grealish seem to be the huge speculation. There doesn't seem much noise around centre backs. But you're quite right, that position looks very very sketchy. Jones, Rojo and Bailly don't look like even "solid" backup. And Lindelof has never struck me as starter fare.

I think Lindelof would be the perfect squad player in a title challenging team, great guy and top professional, whilst also being a good player. But I agree, I feel we need someone who makes a better pair with Maguire.

Bailly can be an ok backup if he stays fit, but "if" is the key word. He has the talent but he will never improve if he can't get regular game time.

I had high hopes for Tuanzebe, but he seems to be another one of our CBs that gets cursed and ends up constantly being injured in the most important times, when the schedule is congested or when other players desperately need a rest. I don't know what to make of him right now but I can't put him in a bracket of reliable CBs at the moment.

 

[Sandikan]

I think Lindelof would be the perfect squad player in a title challenging team, great guy and top professional, whilst also being a good player. But I agree, I feel we need someone who makes a better pair with Maguire.

Bailly can be an ok backup if he stays fit, but "if" is the key word. He has the talent but he will never improve if he can't get regular game time.

I had high hopes for Tuanzebe, but he seems to be another one of our CBs that gets cursed and ends up constantly being injured in the most important times, when the schedule is congested or when other players desperately need a rest. I don't know what to make of him right now but I can't put him in a bracket of reliable CBs at the moment.

I'd seriously look at using Tuanzebe in any Grealish deal. They'll definitely want him, so could be a good way to shift 15-20m of the bill off.

Bailly is quicker than Lindelof, but doesn't gain much on the heading.
You need two headers in the premier league and Matic and Pogba aside from the best eleven, neither of whom make full use of their height, we don't have much other strength around the team in that area.

 

[Robbie Boy]

We have slightly adapted our midfield system since Bruno's arrival and I feel McTominay's game time will severely suffer as a result. He's generally better playing more box-to-box than being deployed in a deeper role. There was a time when he was looking a nailed on starter but thankfully we have evolved our playing style since we signed Bruno. I feel for Fred as he was starting to look really good but Matic has been deservedly starting recently.

Nevertheless, having McT and Fred as squad options is no harm as both are good players that have their uses. Given the amount of games we play every season, they will see their fare share of playing time.

 

[Tincanalley]

My new theory: false No 1. Ten outfield players, all attackers. Attack, attack, attack. Then attack some more. Oh. Sorry. Wrong thread.

 

[Cassidy]

Its almost as if we didnt have yet another injury crisis where we struggled to field/rest players this season

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Which is why he is unlikely to develop Matic abilties on the ball, Matic was an attacking midfielder who was moved to a more defensive role. If McTominay's limitations were tactical I would be a lot more confident but it's a mix of technical and tactical limitations. For me he is an excellent squad player but I wouldn't bet on him to become more, it's not impossible but it's a gamble I rather not take when it's not necessary.

You are making his ability on the ball is like Carrick. His ability on the ball is good but not difficult for any player to developed. More like Fletcher's level of ability on the ball.

 

[Skills]

We have slightly adapted our midfield system since Bruno's arrival and I feel McTominay's game time will severely suffer as a result. He's generally better playing more box-to-box than being deployed in a deeper role. There was a time when he was looking a nailed on starter but thankfully we have evolved our playing style since we signed Bruno. I feel for Fred as he was starting to look really good but Matic has been deservedly starting recently.

Nevertheless, having McT and Fred as squad options is no harm as both are good players that have their uses. Given the amount of games we play every season, they will see their fare share of playing time.

Fred will work his way back into the team if he's given the chance. I know there's a massive Matic love in at the moment, but Fred has also played really well in the DM role this season. They're both much better than McTominay in that role though.

Only nepotism/favouritism for McTominay will hold him back, which might be a problem.

 

[Bastian]

Yeah, I remember watching those two playing themselves into the form of their lives and carrying this team when players had been run into the ground.

As it is, those two alongside Williams and Romero are the only players outside that first XI that I am very happy with. We need to add quality to our squad depth. There are probably 7/8 players we should be actively trying to ship out but none of the players who offer plenty.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Do some people think we need just a starting 11 or something?

 

[Robbie Boy]

Fred will work his way back into the team if he's given the chance. I know there's a massive Matic love in at the moment, but Fred has also played really well in the DM role this season. They're both much better than McTominay in that role though.

Only nepotism/favouritism for McTominay will hold him back, which might be a problem.

I'm not a Matic fan at all really - seems like a great bloke, mind - but I don't think we should have signed him. However, he's been very good of late. In saying that, we've being dominating possession so he's had a-lot more time on the ball.

Fred is certainly more dynamic and against better teams that will press and play with a higher tempo, I would certainly be hoping for a Fred/Pogba combo. Matic looked good in possesson yesterday he had a-few sloppy moments when Bournemouth broke through the middle.

 

[Mcking]

Obviously both have been in really good form this season and Fred especially has seen a huge jump in performances and consistency.

However, with the bruno, pogba, matic (classic DM) midfield 3 we have started to deploy, neither of them really fits. Neither are creative enough or disciplined enough to play any of the 3 roles effectively.

Of course we will need different systems and be adaptable throughout matches, but if we feel that pogba, bruno, matic is our best 3, and we need cover / a replacement for matic and a rotation option for bruno / pogba, do we actually need both players going forward or are they taking up space in a squad that would be better suited to someone who is a better fit.

I'm not saying we need to get rid of them immediately and we clearly have more important areas of the squad to trim, it just struck me as weird that 2 players who earlier in the season would have been guaranteed starters now don't fit our best 11 and no one is calling for them to be included. Thought it warranted discussion.

I agree with this. It's great having good options in the squad, but the duo of McTominay and Fred has left us with two backups in midfield that would most likely be unable to provide back-up when we actually need them.

Assuming Bruno and Pogba are in the team going forward alongside a third midfielder, ideally you'd want no more than three quality players providing competition and backing them up.

Fred provides adequate back-up for Pogba, but I don't see much use for McTominay. He's a bits and pieces midfielder, and he's not disciplined enough to substitute for the third midfielder, not enough quality on the ball to substitute for Pogba, and not enough creativity to substitute for Bruno. He would provide a body, but not much else. To get him in the team, you'd need to alter the overall structure of the midfield.

We need them in the sense that they would provide bodies in midfield, but we don't need to have both in squad. Fred provides almost every option that McTominay does, rendering the latter obsolete. I'd replace McTominay with players that would provide us with different options.

 

[georgipep]

Well it's kind of obvious isn't it? He plays in a position that we are well stocked in, yet we're light in other areas. So it's called balancing the squad. We've seen Fergie do it many times. Sell players that still have plenty to offer to replace them with kids, and bring in funds to strengthen other areas.

But as a squad player he'd still have a very important role to play.

So Mystic Meg I'm afraid you've sensed wrong this time. I can't imagine him being sold but we'll see.

Haha, thanks for the Mystyc Meg, made me chuckle. But seriously, how is Fred part of an area we are well stocked? Earlier in the season we were complaining about the lack of options we have in midfield and now we want to give away one of our best options? Or you our players won't ever get injured again?

Also, Captain Obvious, you didn't answer my other question. How, in your opinion, would West Ham pull off a 2 for 1 exchange and, more importantly, handle the wages of both?

 

[RedWat]

Obviously both have been in really good form this season and Fred especially has seen a huge jump in performances and consistency.

However, with the bruno, pogba, matic (classic DM) midfield 3 we have started to deploy, neither of them really fits. Neither are creative enough or disciplined enough to play any of the 3 roles effectively.

Of course we will need different systems and be adaptable throughout matches, but if we feel that pogba, bruno, matic is our best 3, and we need cover / a replacement for matic and a rotation option for bruno / pogba, do we actually need both players going forward or are they taking up space in a squad that would be better suited to someone who is a better fit.

I'm not saying we need to get rid of them immediately and we clearly have more important areas of the squad to trim, it just struck me as weird that 2 players who earlier in the season would have been guaranteed starters now don't fit our best 11 and no one is calling for them to be included. Thought it warranted discussion.

Changing the system is a major issue if Bruno/Pogba are out for a while. pre Bruno McFred were warriors in Midfield against the likes of City & Liverpool where our counter attacking style, using James as a whippet down the right stifled the better teams, but the lack of creativity in this setup proved our undoing against low block defensive teams such as Burnley, Palace etc.

The question is if Matic, our only natural CDM gets injured can either Fred or McT be disciplined enough to play that role to allow Pogba & Bruno to continue playing as they have been, or do we need to look elsewhere for another natural CDM so that this style of play can be maintained. It will be interesting next season when we indeed play Liverpool & City where previous games this season as mentioned before we succeeded against them playing a stifling counter attacking game, now with Bruno/ Pogba and our current front three we will be confident of getting the upper hand creativity wise in midfield . However if Pogba and/or in particular Bruno gets injured and McFred(or lingard) has to step in it is likely we would have to revert back to the counter attacking system.

If the money can stretch I believe we need to get a Matic replacement plus a creative midfielder (to backup pogba/bruno) plus Sancho.

 

[Jericho]

We need both. We finally have some decent options. Leave well enough alone.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Obviously both have been in really good form this season and Fred especially has seen a huge jump in performances and consistency.

However, with the bruno, pogba, matic (classic DM) midfield 3 we have started to deploy, neither of them really fits. Neither are creative enough or disciplined enough to play any of the 3 roles effectively.

Of course we will need different systems and be adaptable throughout matches, but if we feel that pogba, bruno, matic is our best 3, and we need cover / a replacement for matic and a rotation option for bruno / pogba, do we actually need both players going forward or are they taking up space in a squad that would be better suited to someone who is a better fit.

I'm not saying we need to get rid of them immediately and we clearly have more important areas of the squad to trim, it just struck me as weird that 2 players who earlier in the season would have been guaranteed starters now don't fit our best 11 and no one is calling for them to be included. Thought it warranted discussion.

Fred is still a decent fit for the deeper role and that role, for now, should be Pogba plus either one of Matic or Fred. While Matic is more disciplined, he's often left chasing shadows against teams that press and play with a higher tempo. Fred is far more dynamic and would be more useful in these types of games. I agree he's not necessarily a 'natural fit' for the the role per se but he has the attributes to play there effectively. Pogba is clearly playing as a more deep lying playmaker with Matic acting as the defensive shield. In an ideal world, I would love us to pair up Partey and Pogba together. Partey looks attainable and would be an upgrade on Matic as a starter in the side.

I alluded to it in an earlier post that yes, our change in system will effect both Fred and McT but I feel McT will suffer the most. For me, he's had a lot of his poorer games for us when asked to play as a 'shield'. I see him more box to box-to-box and I don't feel he offers much playing deeper. Unfortunately for him, we seem to have moved on from that tactic and thank god for that. He may have to be shoehorned into the side for some game time but he can still offer something in certain situations.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Read the opening post ffs. Amazing.

I did, they are clearly needed, people seem to forget they were part of our great run with Bruno as well before COVID. They just have to be paired with either Bruno/Pogba rather than Lingard/Mata.

 

[Eire Red United]

Neither will be leaving any time soon, both will have big parts to play!

 

[RedRonaldo]

At this moment we do need them both as backup/rotation options. In future if we have another good DM/CM coming in, maybe we can sell one of them. But Matic isn’t young anymore, maybe we can still keep them both.

 

[cyril C]

You couldn't make this shit up, we finally start to have a good competitive squad and people want to sell those players

Exactly, we don't need James would be next when people think we don't need a 4th attacking player. The only odd men out are Lingard and perhaps Periera. if Mata could be a good squad backup, then 1 of these 2 youngsters would be not so useful.

 

[Stack]

Do some people think we need just a starting 11 or something?

well only 10 will do, goalkeepers are not really part of the team, they do their own thing.

 

[Bondi77]

Obviously

 

[SAFMUTD]

honestly I thought McTominay and Fred were having a good season, but seeing how dominant Bruno-Pogba-Matic midfield is Ive realized the gap of quality, at the moment they dont look as anything more than merely squad players.

I fear if we have to substitute even one player from our midfield or attack our performances would drop massively, the gap in quality between the starters and the subs is huge.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

honestly I thought McTominay and Fred were having a good season, but seeing how dominant Bruno-Pogba-Matic midfield is Ive realized the gap of quality, at the moment they dont look as anything more than merely squad players.

I fear if we have to substitute even one player from our midfield or attack our performances would drop massively, the gap in quality between the starters and the subs is huge.

Our unbeatable run started when Pogba was injured. Fred and Mctominay played Pogba's position. As long as Bruno and Matic are on the pitch I'm fine with any of Fred or Mctominay as the third midfielder. Fred especially is a good squad option

 

[dalriada]

We'd be crazy to sell them when we've just started to create some depth in the squad. Don't forget how well both have developed during this season. At present they're being kept out of the starting XI because the midfield combination of Matić, Pogba and Fernandes is working so well, but we're not going to play that formation every game all season. McTominay is young and will develop further, and both offer different options in style of play. Part of the team's development will be to get results without relying on just one set of players in midfield.

 

[forevrared]

I don't think we anticipated McTominay's rise when we signed Fred, but quality depth in central midfield is something we've been lacking for almost two decades. It seems crazy to start trying to get rid right when we're finally looking comfortable in the middle of the park - especially if we're going to be playing three central midfielders more often than not moving forward.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Our unbeatable run started when Pogba was injured. Fred and Mctominay played Pogba's position. As long as Bruno and Matic are on the pitch I'm fine with any of Fred or Mctominay as the third midfielder. Fred especially is a good squad option

I think you are completely underrating Pogba, if we are still on that streak is because the huge impact Pogba made comming as a sub against spurs, we looked toothless before he enter.

 

[RC89]

We're yet to even get top 4 and were talking as though we have a great squad. This discussion is probably best for when a time comes (if ever) that one of the two or both don't take part in much of 60 games or so we'll likely play.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I think you are completely underrating Pogba, if we are still on that streak is because the huge impact Pogba made comming as a sub against spurs, we looked toothless before he enter.

Like I said, as long as Bruno and Matic are on the pitch the midfield is good with Fred or Mctominay.

 

[sillwuka]

We simply need to build on the quality we have. Scott and Fred should be here to stay + looking at a creative midfielder on top.

One injury to either Pogba, Bruno or Matic and you will be left wanting another quality option.

 

[Fully Fledged]

I'd be looking to get rid of Periera, Lingard and Mata and replace them with Sancho and Grealish before I ever looked at getting rid of either McT or Fred.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Nope, we dont even need either of them.

 

[In Rainbows]

Our unbeatable run started when Pogba was injured. Fred and Mctominay played Pogba's position. As long as Bruno and Matic are on the pitch I'm fine with any of Fred or Mctominay as the third midfielder. Fred especially is a good squad option

And it also started before Bruno came. And it would have ended until Pogba came on against Spurs. Might as well start James instead of Rashford too. Rashford wasn't around at the start of the unbeatable run.

Nah. There's a clear difference with Rashford and Pogba added to the side.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

And it also started before Bruno came. And it would have ended until Pogba came on against Spurs. Might as well start James instead of Rashford too. Rashford wasn't around at the start of the unbeatable run.

Nah. There's a clear difference with Rashford and Pogba added to the side.

No it didn't start before Bruno came. Saying it would have ended if Pogba hadn't come on us just an assumption. I can't believe the Pogba who people were saying has to earn his place back in the team all of a sudden is irreplaceable.

Anyways of course there's a clear difference in having one of the best midfielders in the world in your team. That's why he's among the best. Unless you're looking for Kroos to be cover for Pogba, Fred is more than capable and he has proven that several times this season. Expecting him to do all what Pogba can do is very unrealistic because not many people can do that.

 

[In Rainbows]

No it didn't start before Bruno came. Saying it would have ended if Pogba hadn't come on us just an assumption. I can't believe the Pogba who people were saying has to earn his place back in the team all of a sudden is irreplaceable.

Anyways of course there's a clear difference in having one of the best midfielders in the world in your team. That's why he's among the best. Unless you're looking for Kroos to be cover for Pogba, Fred is more than capable and he has proven that several times this season. Expecting him to do all what Pogba can do is very unrealistic because not many people can do that.

It actually did start before Bruno. Bruno's first match came in the 3rd match of our unbeaten streak against Wolves. Tranmere was the first match of the unbeaten streak (without Bruno).

Where is the assumption in that statement? Pogba literally won us a penalty to make it a tie 1-1. United were losing before Pogba came on the pitch. Saying we would remain unbeaten without Pogba is an assumption on the other hand because United were in fact losing to Spurs.


I don't know why you can't believe that. He's just far better than Fred and McTominay. The fact that people were saying the opposite just means they were underestimating Pogba's ability. Not all of us thought that btw.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

It actually did start before Bruno. Bruno's first match came in the 3rd match of our unbeaten streak against Wolves. Tranmere was the first match of the unbeaten streak (without Bruno).

Where is the assumption in that statement? Pogba literally won us a penalty to make it a tie 1-1. United were losing before Pogba came on the pitch. Saying we would remain unbeaten without Pogba is an assumption on the other hand because United were in fact losing to Spurs.


I don't know why you can't believe that. He's just far better than Fred and McTominay. The fact that people were saying the opposite just means they were underestimating Pogba's ability. Not all of us thought that btw.

We went unbeaten for only two games pre Bruno. I'd hardly call that a run. It's an assumption that we wouldn't have scored without Pogba because you simply don't know. Same way I don't know whether we would have remained unbeaten without Pogba. But what I know is we went unbeaten without him for about 11 games and we beat Chelsea and City during that period. And the fact that some ridiculous posts were made about Pogba having to earn his place to me doesn't just show his ability is underrated but it also shows that we have a decent cover for him.

Pogba is better than Fred obviously. I literally called Pogba one of the best midfielders in the world. Are you not meant to see a drop in quality when one of the best players in the world is replaced? But that doesn't change the fact that Fred is good cover for Pogba and he has proven that during Pogba's injury. If you think otherwise then you are underestimating Fred's ability or expecting too much from him to play like one of the best midfielders in the world. Notice i don't bring up Mctominay because I don't think he's good enough cover for Pogba but Fred has definitely proven he is.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

They're both good players and have a place in our squad. At the same time, it is worth discussing, given our ambitions to reach the top and the fact that we already have two top midfielders who excel in creativity, which creates a need for defensive qualities and build up play from our midfield to suit that. And neither Fred not Mctominay excel at that. They're not defensively poor or anything - both can and have before contributed greatly to hard fought wins and midfield battles. Mctominay is physically dominant and Fred is excellent at harrying. But with Pogba and Fernandes you'd need someone who is much more at home at sitting and holding IMO. So it's worth pondering. But at the same time, as things stand they've both been performing and suiting the team's make up.

I think the way forward is just to add to the squad what is necessary and then let the players develop and compete, and if someone doesn't make the mark, so be it.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Squad depth. Need.

Close thread/