when Cantona was making us say Uh Ah! he wasnt the top scorer, but he didnt need that to be considered our best player
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
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Cal would take Shane Long ahead of Messi I think, the nutter.
You have summarized it well. Messi is the one to rely on if you want to create something out of nothing, Ronaldo is much more reliant on good service and doesn't work anywhere near as hard even though I wouldn't call him lazy. They are both properly great players but if any of them goes down in tier 1 of the best footballers to have ever played the game with their name next to Pele and Maradona it will be Messi.
It's well-structured enough for me but I barely agree with any of it. As a few others have already said Cristiano Ronaldo didn't come close to single-handedly dragging Real Madrid to their successful year in recent history (which wasn't really that much better than 11/12 I reckon). Don't get me wrong, he had a fantastic season and I think it was better than Messi's, but there's no need to exaggerate. Modric, Di María and Ramos were just as important over the entire season. I don't think they'd have won the Champions League without Cristiano but I don't think they'd have won it without any of the above 3 either, it was a team effort. Cristiano adds the finishing touches, he doesn't help them control games.Right. Statistically, it's close, I agree. The following points are why i think Ronaldo is better right now though. However the following statements are all purely opinionated and therefore shouldn't be taken as facts, just a personal opinion.
IMHO, Ronaldo has been better simply because he's near-singlehandedly dragged Madrid to their most successful year in modern history. I believe that it doesn't matter if you score a lot of goals, if it means your team doesn't have success. Mainly because players are there to serve their team before going for personal records, and the best way to serve a team is to win them matches and trophies. Ronaldo has done so, along with his individual brilliance.
Now you may hit me back with Messi's World Cup campaign. And you're right, Messi did get them to the final. However a one month competition, no matter how great, is still a one month competition. One month out of twelve. You do the math. Messi was great in the World Cup, but he has to constantly show that, and for me, he just hasn't done that this year. Whenever I've watched him, he hasn't had that 'sparkle'. Of course, this is all still personal opinion/bias.
And finally, stats. While I don't like people basing their opinion on a player based solely on stats, I believe that dtats still have to be taken into consideration when comparing two players. Statistically, Ronaldo has had a better year and season so far, and in less games. Of course, you might put this down to Madrid having a superior squad to Barca, but IMO, the difference isn't as huge as some are making out them to be. I believe that the Messi of 2012 would have hit Ronaldo-heights or even higher even in this current Barca team; his standards have dropped, that's undeniable.
So there, those are my arguements for why think Ronaldo is currently better than Messi. Is that well-structured enough for you?
My main problem is that you seem to think that Cristiano having a more successful 2013/14 campaign, or 2014 year (which I think was a lot closer than people suggest) means he's better currently. I disagree with that, Messi is near his best again this season and while statistically he's not matching Cristiano's goals his performances over the entire season have been better, especially given the dip in form of the Portuguese over the last month or so. Messi is responsible for a lot more of Barcelona's attacking play than Cristiano is for Real Madrid and yet he's still near enough matching his output on top of that.
Someone else said that the best thing Cristiano Ronaldo has done recently is to reduce these best player debates to who's scored the most goals. I'm not sure who it was but they summed it up perfectly.
True.
For United? Definitely...
Messi needs the whole system built around him, as witnessed by his performances for Barca v Argentina.
Ronaldo has proven beyond doubt that he is the best both at PL and La Liga.
Before someone talks about Portugal, compare the team mates.
That's ridiculous. Why do you claim Messi needs the whole system built around him?
He might need the setup at Barça to be as productive as he has been, but same can be said for Ronaldo at Madrid.
It's not that often that Ronaldo looks the best player in the team when playing for Portugal, so the team mates argument is bullshit as well. He thrives in very particular settings, and I have the impression these are more restrictive than Messi's. It's perfectly fair to compare both players for their national teams. Perhaps not their productivity (which isn't that dissimilar) but just watching the fecking games gives you an idea. And Messi does a lot better in Argentina than Ronaldo in Portugal. That's beyond any reasonable doubt.
So Ronaldo needs good team mates around him to be useful then?
I don't see how Messi has ever proven that he cannot perform without the team set up to his needs. You are basically shooting yourself in the foot with this argument here.
But Ronaldo is the one with the system built around him, he is getting so much service and not having to run around the pitch making the play for his team.
Messi is the one carrying Barcelona right now, he is the player starting the plays and also finishing most of them playing all over the pitch.
Messi is playing as a playmaker and a winger/striker for Barca as they are lost with out him getting involved in the build up play.
So if anyone has the team built around them it's Ronaldo lol.
Cal? is fantastic at digging himself into a hole repeatedly.
Messi is not only the better player of the two, he's exactly what we need right now. We need a player to build the team around, because we don't have enough good players who could provide Ronaldo with the service he needs and relies on.
And by the way, Messi doesn't "need a system built around him", he's a player "capable of running a system". You say a player needs "service" from his teammates (as a negative), not being able to be a player that you can build a whole team around (with him being the provider, not the beneficiary). That's a luxury, not a negative thing.
Also you have successfully pinpointed the problem with the other argument you made (international teams).
Cal just keeps digging, when will he stop?
This article about Messi was posted here during the World Cup. Worth a read if you haven't already.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
Cruyff reckons Kroos was better than both, or at least more deserving of the Ballon, both this year and the last (or something, may have misunderstood him a bit, but certainly the last one).
What do you loons make of that? *
* Not implying Cruyff is right. Just throwin' it out there. Seeing as the regular Messi versus Ronaldo mob seem somewhat hung up on the Ballon thing.
What do you loons make of that? *
* Not implying Cruyff is right. Just throwin' it out there. Seeing as the regular Messi versus Ronaldo mob seem somewhat hung up on the Ballon thing.
He is a genius, reading that was very very good i have to say. I skipped through a bit of it but i enjoyed looking at those in depth stats that a lot of people ignore that just look for goals and nothing else.
Ronaldo = deadly Huntelaar and goals are superfluous, according to this thread
If u have watched him play he has turned into more of a poacher than anything else though, i am just going off what i have seen from Ronaldo. He is a very effective striker at getting goals that is his main strength in the last 2-3 seaons i have watched him.
So it's only natural people will have that kind of opinion on him.
1. Messi is the system for Barca. He is crucial for the team. Not saying Ronaldo isn't important for Real (his goals are), but he is the piece of a well-constructed jigsaw for me.
2. Ronaldo has proven himself in the EPL but you really think he didn't change his game significantly? As I said, he's a striker now.
3. Portugal struggle to produce any clear-cut chances for Ronaldo, so yes, they are worse team than Argentina. But this is a good example of what happens when the system is not good enough for him. Don't think you can say the same about Messi, he always seems to produce some piece of magic.
Kroos is majestic. However, I don’t think that anyone else than Messi/Ronaldo will win the Ballon in the coming years.
I would have given it to Philipp Lahm or DI Maria if it was up to me, I thought Di Maria was Madrid's best player last season when they won the CL and thought Philipp Lahm was just mr consistent for Bayern and Germany leading them to a WC win.
Lahm never puts a foot wrong and doesn't get near enough praise as he should imo.
I have, and it seems that lazy assumption has gone from strength to strength, despite evidence to the contrary. He is a major component of Real Madrid's counter-attacking potency, not some fringe player who swoops in and scores the final ball alone.
I'm not disagreeing with that either, all i'm saying is he gets very good service and is often in the box latches onto the final pass to slot the ball home. From what i have seen of him that is his biggest strength is his finishing and timing of runs.
harsh on Huntelaar who probably doesn't get anywhere near that portion of his goals from the spot.
His off the ball movement is phenomenal, and he is a great finisher, but his qualities as an all round midfielder are sold short. He's going through a bad rut of form that is being masked by goals right now, but earlier this season and part of last season he was instrumental in the build up, transition and finish.
ToucheAll those who are talking about Ronaldo having the Real team built around him, remember a few years ago I made the same point regarding Messi having that at Barca a few years ago and as soon as Xavi's form dropped off, he doesn't look anywhere as good as he did.
If you take them both out of Argentina and Portugal, Argentina will still be one of the favourites for the WC, Portugal will struggle to qualify for it, in fact, they wouldn't have qualified for it last year.
If you take them both out of Argentina and Portugal, Argentina will still be one of the favourites for the WC, Portugal will struggle to qualify for it, in fact, they wouldn't have qualified for it last year.
argentina woulnt have gone past the group stages
You talk shite. Xavi's best level had already gone when Messi had his 91 goal season. Also do me a favour and stop trying to make Portugal sound like San Marino in an attempt to paint Ronaldo in a better light.
i remember portugal playing against ghana, after ronaldo kindly told the press that his team mates werent as good as he wanted
during that game, his team mates gave him one chance after the other and Ronaldo missed each and everyone
I still think the Ghana keeper had money on Ronaldo scoring and that's why he essentially gifted him a goal.
Still my favourite Ronaldo moment of the World Cup was this
Hitting a one man wall is pretty bad. Hitting a one man wall containing a short arse like Philip Lahm is really bad.
Not until the day his true love is in his arms and they ride off into the sunset.
Aaaah, but don't you see it takes special talent to do that. Or so Cal will argue.I still think the Ghana keeper had money on Ronaldo scoring and that's why he essentially gifted him a goal.
Still my favourite Ronaldo moment of the World Cup was this
Hitting a one man wall is pretty bad. Hitting a one man wall containing a short arse like Philip Lahm is really bad.
I still think the Ghana keeper had money on Ronaldo scoring and that's why he essentially gifted him a goal.
Still my favourite Ronaldo moment of the World Cup was this
Hitting a one man wall is pretty bad. Hitting a one man wall containing a short arse like Philip Lahm is really bad.
And you know that was after doing that fecking embarrassing '5 steps back', glory hunter nonsense he does before every free kick.Messi scored a beauty of a free kick that WC against Nigeria.
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Wow
He's just a poacher now. Obviously he's supremely talented but when he doesn't use it all and is just primarily a goalscorer then that's exactly the term that should be used to describe him.
I remember when he was at United and he was genuinely exciting to watch. Now he's just this utterly brutal machine. He picked the ball up once for United (away to Fulham, iirc), skinned a few players and scored an absolute peach. That was the norm for him back then. He's obviously 'better' now but I can't say I prefer to watch him now.
whaddup @Cal?
That is true, he used to take on lot of defenders. That part of his game is lost now.
My friends and other people on forums call me crazy when i say Ronaldo is a poacher. Think this will prove my point lol.
It's because people incorrectly assume a poacher is some talentless guy who can just stick the ball in the net and do nothing else. It's not the case. It's more of a style of play rather than an assessment of ability.
IMHO it's Messi who is better player overall but the gap is getting smaller with Ronaldo being more successful and productive in recent years.
Quite obvious its because Messi has more ability to play the way he does? I remember watching the Real v Athletico game and was wondering where's Ronaldo. He was practically doing nothing the the entire game and then he suddenly beat Godin to ball and scored a great header. After that Real ran out of gas and Ronaldo couldn't do anything at all. Messi on the other hand was constantly probing the defence, forcing them deeper and creating chance after chance. And he even scored in both games.
Ronaldo might be scoring ridiculous amount of goals but Messi goalscoring records isn't that far away. This season Messi been playing so much deeper than usual but he's actually only 6 goals behind Ronaldo. That is the truly frightening aspect about him.
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