Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[carvajal]

What exactly defines "these situations"? To me it seems like they only count if he's on the losing side. Let's imagine for a second Barca didn't go out against Rome last season but "accomplished" an unspectacular 1-1 with a Messi assist. What would you reply to me if I'd consider that game "a big match"? It's the same in this season. He played brillantly in the second leg against United, the second leg against Lyon and the first leg against Liverpool. Why aren't those matches "these situations"? His masterclass performances are the only reason that Barca didn't feck up much earlier. Truth is, Barcelona went out the second Messi didn't bail them out singlehandedly but "only" had a good performance.

I understand the leadership part, but that's not really a footballing trait for me. You need leaders in your team but your best player doesn't have to be the leader simultaneously. Exemplarily, it would've been a ridiculous decision to make Ronaldinho the captain of Rijkaard's Barca team because he responsibility and leadership were never his strengthes, he's an unstable genius. Does that make him a worse football player? Why do people expect a great player to be a great leader in the first place?

Those situations are the most important games of the season.
Nobody cares what they did against Lyon, but that he appears, emerges and motivates in the key games.
Last year he was a disaster against Roma and didn't score,and against Atlético and Juve the previous years he couldn't score either.
The excuses doesn't matter, he is the best player in the world and has to score in Anfield, in Rome or in Turin.
The mental aspect,not being a "cold chest" is important in this case, since it is a comparative thread.
In a tough situation, in a K.O match,with the team broken, or about to shoot the decisive penalty in the key match, etc, I would prefer to have Cristiano on my side.
The winning gene referred to by Simeone in that leaked audio,in which he talked about Messi / Cris and that became a reality in Turin

 

[Bole Top]

Obviously the timing of it completely changes everything, in football you're only as good as your last game.

nah, you're wrong. we actually had a poll opened about Ron being the goat just after he had won titles with both Portugal and Madrid and we got the same results, with majority of caf still favouring Messi. there wasn't messing with the poll then.

 

[wub1234]

Obviously the timing of it completely changes everything, in football you're only as good as your last game. If they had opened it after Ronaldo put 3 past Atletico he'd have got to 60% too judging by how the poll has moved in the past year.

Outside of Ronaldo fans, very few people proportionately believe that he is a better footballer than Messi.

I already posted earlier in the thread the list of pundits, players, journalists, ex-players, etc, who think Messi is the best of all-time. He is almost unanimously considered to be one of the three best of all-time now.

Haven't you noticed this in the media, in TV commentary, in newspaper, magazine and Internet articles, in the pre and post-match comments of pundits, etc? Surely you must have heard people, who are clearly not 'Messi fanboys' say en masse, this guy is a genius, he's one of the very greatest players of all-time, and quite possibly the greatest?

Have you not encountered this? Maybe it's different in Portugal, perhaps the media all pretends that Ronaldo is better, sort of like North Korea. But I doubt it. Because I've been to Portugal, and it's a thoroughly modern country, full of intelligent people. So I surmise that the media does indeed constantly report on Messi's brilliance.

But if it doesn't, then let me inform you that outside of Portugal Messi is constantly proclaimed to be an absolute genius, the best player in the world, and quite possibly the best player ever, and certainly in the top three, alongside Pele and Maradona. Ronaldo is, rightly, unanimously considered to be a great player, but is not rated in that bracket, or at least only by a very few people.

As a matter of fact, the small gap in the poll on this site is mainly reflective of the fact that this is a Manchester United forum. But even now United fans have had to come out in large numbers and admit that Messi is simply better, as you surely have noticed in this thread over the last 30-40 pages.

 

[Cait Sith]

I somewhat changed my opinion from Messi to Ronaldo.

A couple years ago I would laugh at anyone who thought Ronaldo was better than Messi. Messi could dribble, pass and score whereas Ronaldo mainly only challenged Messi at scoring so the debate was pointless.

But the more I watch Barca post Xavi-Iniesta era and the one treble MSN season where Messi bothered to stay on the wing for a few months, the more I realize that Messi has some HUGE downsides to his game which are even more problematic in big games than I imagined.

On the ball he is the best for sure but it doesn't necessarily help his team more. For all the good he does on the ball, he also hampers his teammates with his complete lack of movement without the ball and the habit to be a walking spectator on the pitch. Barca already have 4 midfielders on the pitch (Busquets, Rakitic, Vidal, Coutinho) and then Messi comes to the center circle to collect the ball to pass it out wide to Alba. That's such a redundant move, as if 4 Barca midfielders cannot advance the ball to the left wing without Messi always coming deep to collect the ball and do it for them.

But even the Messi-Alba connection is flawed. With Ronaldo in the team, Alba would have a field day with high or low crosses. With Messi he can only do low cutbacks. "Messi to Alba, Alba back to Messi who runs into the box from deep." Barca's fullbacks cannot even cross the ball high like conventional fullbacks, they have to adapt their game to Messi.

Messi never makes any sort of offensive movements into the box other than passing from the center circle to Alba then running to the box to get the ball back from Alba. For example the Suarez goal against Liverpool. Ronaldo also does that but Messi never does that sort of run.

I think in big CL games versatility like aerial ability or ability to shake off the defender in the box are more crucial than being able to dribble 3 Celta Vigo or Getafe players in La Liga every week.

There is also the coincidence that Barca always somehow looked better as a team when Messi was out for a period. Coincidentally, the biggest 2 trashings they handed out to Madrid recently were handed out when Messi was injured (4-0 and 5-1). Where every 10 outfield player moved in unison offensively and defensively. Sergi Roberto working his ass off to keep Marcelo in check on the right wing seemed to have a bigger influence on the game than whatever individual greatness Messi would have had with the ball at his feet. Admittedly, a small portion of games but nevertheless Barca never looked bad when he was out.

 

[Hughie77]

Someone's gone quiet? Messi lived up to his name at Anfield, messy.

 

[Peyroteo]

nah, you're wrong. we actually had a poll opened about Ron being the goat just after he had won titles with both Portugal and Madrid and we got the same results, with majority of caf still favouring Messi. there wasn't messing with the poll then.

 

[VanKenny]

I somewhat changed my opinion from Messi to Ronaldo.

A couple years ago I would laugh at anyone who thought Ronaldo was better than Messi. Messi could dribble, pass and score whereas Ronaldo mainly only challenged Messi at scoring so the debate was pointless.

But the more I watch Barca post Xavi-Iniesta era and the one treble MSN season where Messi bothered to stay on the wing for a few months, the more I realize that Messi has some HUGE downsides to his game which are even more problematic in big games than I imagined.

On the ball he is the best for sure but it doesn't necessarily help his team more. For all the good he does on the ball, he also hampers his teammates with his complete lack of movement without the ball and the habit to be a walking spectator on the pitch. Barca already have 4 midfielders on the pitch (Busquets, Rakitic, Vidal, Coutinho) and then Messi comes to the center circle to collect the ball to pass it out wide to Alba. That's such a redundant move, as if 4 Barca midfielders cannot advance the ball to the left wing without Messi always coming deep to collect the ball and do it for them.

But even the Messi-Alba connection is flawed. With Ronaldo in the team, Alba would have a field day with high or low crosses. With Messi he can only do low cutbacks. "Messi to Alba, Alba back to Messi who runs into the box from deep." Barca's fullbacks cannot even cross the ball high like conventional fullbacks, they have to adapt their game to Messi.

Messi never makes any sort of offensive movements into the box other than passing from the center circle to Alba then running to the box to get the ball back from Alba. For example the Suarez goal against Liverpool. Ronaldo also does that but Messi never does that sort of run.

I think in big CL games versatility like aerial ability or ability to shake off the defender in the box are more crucial than being able to dribble 3 Celta Vigo or Getafe players in La Liga every week.

There is also the coincidence that Barca always somehow looked better as a team when Messi was out for a period. Coincidentally, the biggest 2 trashings they handed out to Madrid recently were handed out when Messi was injured (4-0 and 5-1). Where every 10 outfield player moved in unison offensively and defensively. Sergi Roberto working his ass off to keep Marcelo in check on the right wing seemed to have a bigger influence on the game than whatever individual greatness Messi would have had with the ball at his feet. Admittedly, a small portion of games but nevertheless Barca never looked bad when he was out.

Jesus... at least with Cal and Peyroteo you know you are arguing with CR7's biggest fans and you kind of expect them to post things like that because well, they have a pretty obvious agenda.

But you sound like a neutral... and you seem to actually believe everything you posted. Basically "Barcelona would be better without Messi". Thats too much man, you scare me because you actually believe that. At least the other two i mentioned before, it kind of gives me the vibe that deep inside they know Messi is better

 

[Snowjoe]

Only because idiots mods locked it straight after Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona.

Are you ok Cal? I feel like my little wind up has really upset you

 

[MalcolmTucker]

I somewhat changed my opinion from Messi to Ronaldo.

A couple years ago I would laugh at anyone who thought Ronaldo was better than Messi. Messi could dribble, pass and score whereas Ronaldo mainly only challenged Messi at scoring so the debate was pointless.

But the more I watch Barca post Xavi-Iniesta era and the one treble MSN season where Messi bothered to stay on the wing for a few months, the more I realize that Messi has some HUGE downsides to his game which are even more problematic in big games than I imagined.

On the ball he is the best for sure but it doesn't necessarily help his team more. For all the good he does on the ball, he also hampers his teammates with his complete lack of movement without the ball and the habit to be a walking spectator on the pitch. Barca already have 4 midfielders on the pitch (Busquets, Rakitic, Vidal, Coutinho) and then Messi comes to the center circle to collect the ball to pass it out wide to Alba. That's such a redundant move, as if 4 Barca midfielders cannot advance the ball to the left wing without Messi always coming deep to collect the ball and do it for them.

But even the Messi-Alba connection is flawed. With Ronaldo in the team, Alba would have a field day with high or low crosses. With Messi he can only do low cutbacks. "Messi to Alba, Alba back to Messi who runs into the box from deep." Barca's fullbacks cannot even cross the ball high like conventional fullbacks, they have to adapt their game to Messi.

Messi never makes any sort of offensive movements into the box other than passing from the center circle to Alba then running to the box to get the ball back from Alba. For example the Suarez goal against Liverpool. Ronaldo also does that but Messi never does that sort of run.

I think in big CL games versatility like aerial ability or ability to shake off the defender in the box are more crucial than being able to dribble 3 Celta Vigo or Getafe players in La Liga every week.

Weird to blame Messi for being too short to be an aerial threat. Messi isn't even their striker, he is a RWF/number 10 - how many of those are aerial threats? Man City have no small players yet they score loads from crosses.

Messi has flaws, he doesn't press enough and he does sulk if his team lets him down but asking him to be the sole aerial threat in an 11 man team isn't one of them.

 

[Amar__]

Are you ok Cal? I feel like my little wind up has really upset you

He is upset with Ronado's entire season, Messi's loss against scousers was his peak of the season and you kind of ruined it for him.

 

[Cait Sith]

Weird to blame Messi for being too short to be an aerial threat. Messi isn't even their striker, he is a RWF/number 10 - how many of those are aerial threats? Man City have no aerial threat yet they score loads from crosses.

Messi has flaws, he doesn't press enough and he does sulk if his team lets him down but asking him to be the sole aerial threat in an 11 man team isn't one of them.

I do not blame him for being short just as I do not blame Ronaldo for not having low center of gravity to be a great dribbler. I'm merely stating that being an aerial threat + having great off the ball movement in the box + speed on the counter might be more helpful to win big games than being a great dribbler or being able to ping long balls out wide to the fullback. How many times do you see goals scored in CL knockout stages from headers or long balls? Almost all the time. How many times do you see someone dribbling 3 players then putting it into the net? I don't even remember the last time.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

I do not blame him for being short just as I do not blame Ronaldo for not having low center of gravity to be a great dribbler. I'm merely stating that being an aerial threat + having great off the ball movement in the box + speed on the counter might be more helpful to win big games than being a great dribbler or being able to ping long balls out wide to the fullback. How many times do you see goals scored in CL knockout stages from headers or long balls? Almost all the time. How many times do you see someone dribbling 3 players then putting it into the net? I don't even remember the last time.

Messi isn't just dribbling and pinging the ball out wide is he? He is also the best through ball specialist in the world, a skill which he did 3 times against Liverpool and if Coutinho, Alba or Suarez score any one of those then you wouldn't talking about aerial threat. It's like blaming Ronaldo for not heading in over hit crosses.

I get your point though, in certain situations Ronaldo's skillset is more useful than Messi's.

 

[Pocho]

Messi's performance in 2015 was clearly better in all senses. And Messi chipped the ball over Neuer after destroying Boateng. Messi also showed fantastic skills and playmaking. CR7 scored offside goals in 2017. You need to be too much of a CR7 fanboy to think that CR7's both 2014 and 2017 performances against Bayern are greater than Messi against Bayern in 2015.

With his weak foot

 

[Pocho]

at Cal? thinking this is some masterclass performance - half of Ronaldo's touches are misplaced, over hit or wayward.

Then they get ofended when we compare Ronaldo with Muller. Sick

 

[2mufc0]

great stuff.

 

[2mufc0]

Then they get ofended when we compare Ronaldo with Muller. Sick

Muller was a fantastic all round footballer, much better mentality than your hero too.

 

[Cal?]

You missed the point. We are not trying to take away the merit of CR7's goals. It is truly amazing and fantastic that CR7 scored three goals against Bayern, it is worthy of all praise. The point is that goals alone are not a metric to rank the level of the performances! Is it that hard to understand?

Your sole argument for a Cristiano Ronaldo performance being better than a Messi performance is the number of goals! That is factually, much of the greatness in football can not be quantified and stats tend to be overrated lately. Stats do not tell everything about the level of a player. Based on your arguments to criticize Messi in UCL 2015 because he only scored two goals in the KO and had both Neymar and Suárez scoring more goals than him, then Johan Cruyff was carried by his teammates during his wonderful 1974 World Cup. No one doubts that Cruyff was magnificent and by far the best player of that World Cup, yet he only scored three goals in seven games, 2 against Argentina and one against Brazil. His teammates Neeskens and Rep scored 5 and 4 goals, respectively. There were six players who scored more goals than Cruyff in that World Cup. Let's remember the game in which CR7 scored three goals against Spain in 2018 World Cup. Are you seriously gonna tell me that Cristiano Ronaldo had a better performance than all Cruyff's games in the 1974 World Cup? Or Maradona's games in the 1986 World Cup? Or Garrincha's games in the 1962 World Cup? The game against Uruguay, in which Holland won 2-0, Cruyff did not score, Rep scored the two goals, yet Cruyff was clearly the best player of his team in that match, he was fantastic! Are you saying that CR7's performance against Spain was better than Cruyff against Uruguay in 1974 because he scored three goals and played for an average team while Cruyff scored none and played for one of the greatest teams ever? If your answer is yes, I give up on you.

You are also incoherent. You tried to detract from Messi's performance against Real in 2011 because he did not score before Pepe was sent off, even if Messi scored one of the greatest goals ever. You even say that Messi was being handled by Mourinho's tactics, while Messi was the one creating Barcelona's great chances in the whole game, yet Cristiano Ronaldo also failed to score against Bayern in the second leg before Vidal was sent off and was overall playing worse. Two of his goals against Bayern were offside also. I am not trying to discredit CR7, I am only exposing your incoherence and all lack of common sense when it comes to anything that does not favor or favors CR7!

Ronaldo scored his first at 76' and Vidal was sent off at 84'

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2017/matches/round=2000785/match=2019633/index.html

But don't let the facts get in your way of a good rant.

 

[Cal?]

Outside of Ronaldo fans, very few people proportionately believe that he is a better footballer than Messi.

I already posted earlier in the thread the list of pundits, players, journalists, ex-players, etc, who think Messi is the best of all-time. He is almost unanimously considered to be one of the three best of all-time now.

Haven't you noticed this in the media, in TV commentary, in newspaper, magazine and Internet articles, in the pre and post-match comments of pundits, etc? Surely you must have heard people, who are clearly not 'Messi fanboys' say en masse, this guy is a genius, he's one of the very greatest players of all-time, and quite possibly the greatest?

Have you not encountered this? Maybe it's different in Portugal, perhaps the media all pretends that Ronaldo is better, sort of like North Korea. But I doubt it. Because I've been to Portugal, and it's a thoroughly modern country, full of intelligent people. So I surmise that the media does indeed constantly report on Messi's brilliance.

But if it doesn't, then let me inform you that outside of Portugal Messi is constantly proclaimed to be an absolute genius, the best player in the world, and quite possibly the best player ever, and certainly in the top three, alongside Pele and Maradona. Ronaldo is, rightly, unanimously considered to be a great player, but is not rated in that bracket, or at least only by a very few people.

As a matter of fact, the small gap in the poll on this site is mainly reflective of the fact that this is a Manchester United forum. But even now United fans have had to come out in large numbers and admit that Messi is simply better, as you surely have noticed in this thread over the last 30-40 pages.

You're back to the pundits? Do explain why the media and other players who vote for the Ballon D'or have given Ronaldo more votes for 10 out of the last 15 years? or 8 out of 13 if you ignore Messi's first 2 seasons (which you guys insist on crediting him for the CL). If a player is better for the majority of their career, isn't that proof that those people think he's better?

The poll lost all the last shreds of credibility when the mods locked it that night after another Messi capitulation in the CL.

 

[Cal?]

Are you ok Cal? I feel like my little wind up has really upset you

The windup itself is just juvenile, it's the people who keep pointing to the poll, knowing full well that it's massively flawed that annoy me.

 

[Cal?]

He is upset with Ronado's entire season, Messi's loss against scousers was his peak of the season and you kind of ruined it for him.

That was probably the one game in recent memory I wanted him to win (well, not lose by more than 3).

 

[Pocho]

Muller was a fantastic all round footballer, much better mentality than your hero too.

 

[Tostao_80]

You're back to the pundits? Do explain why the media and other players who vote for the Ballon D'or have given Ronaldo more votes for 10 out of the last 15 years? or 8 out of 13 if you ignore Messi's first 2 seasons (which you guys insist on crediting him for the CL). If a player is better for the majority of their career, isn't that proof that those people think he's better?

The poll lost all the last shreds of credibility when the mods locked it that night after another Messi capitulation in the CL.

Great logic there. Please explain why Gerrard AND Lampard got more (a lot more) votes than Scholes.
According to you that automatically makes them better. Isnt that proof that people think he's better? The answer is no. This has aready been explained but people dont seem to get it. Voting for player a over player doesn't necessarily that you think that player a is better, it means that you think player a had a better year
One example of many i can draw. You know that John Terry voted for Cristiano ahead of Leo in the Balon Dor. But he thinks Leo is better.
Diego would only have won TWO Balon Dors according to France Football if he was eligible. Would you have then said that Platini was better because if his three?

 

[Tostao_80]

Muller was a fantastic all round footballer, much better mentality than your hero too.

Muller wasnt feted for being a fantastic allround footballer. If he was, with his resume, and his goals record, he would be held in higher regard. Its because he had a comparatively limited (compared to the other greats) repertoire. Why do you think De Kaiser is rated higher by many, despite playing in a defensive position?
This is why the comparison with Cristiano is apt. His allround game and repertoire is fairly basic compared to Diego, Leo and Pele. He works hard and does many things well. The other three are just otherworldly.

 

[MrEleson]

Ronaldo never had to make up for his team conceding 4+ goals.

Check the game against Schalke in 2015 Ro16. They go out at that stage with no Ronaldo.

 

[Cal?]

Great logic there. Please explain why Gerrard AND Lampard got more (a lot more) votes than Scholes.
According to you that automatically makes them better. Isnt that proof that people think he's better? The answer is no. This has aready been explained but people dont seem to get it. Voting for player a over player doesn't necessarily that you think that player a is better, it means that you think player a had a better year
One example of many i can draw. You know that John Terry voted for Cristiano ahead of Leo in the Balon Dor. But he thinks Leo is better.
Diego would only have won TWO Balon Dors according to France Football if he was eligible. Would you have then said that Platini was better because if his three?

Great logic that, by the time Gerrard finished 3rd in the voting in 2005, Scholes wasn't the player he was in the late 90s/early 00s. Are you arguing that Gerrard didn't have a better year in 2005?

I'm not saying that players who get more votes over their career are better, but that in the same year, the player who gets more votes is better (most of the time). There are some obvious errors like 2018 and 2010, but over 10+ years, it's generally not far wrong.

 

[matbezlima]

Ronaldo scored his first at 76' and Vidal was sent off at 84'

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2017/matches/round=2000785/match=2019633/index.html

But don't let the facts get in your way of a good rant.

Ok, I was mistaken, but it does not change all my line of thinking. The fact that you only pointed at my mistake and did not answer to everything else in my comment is proof of your bias. Anyway, no football fan should try to discredit one of the greatest UCL goals ever!

CR7 is fantastic, but goals are not the only measure of a player greatness. Stats do not do total justice to many players, you must watch them play. So much of football greatness is unquantifiable. In no way CR7 was in 2017 in a better overall level of performances than Messi in 2011 (specially his performance in the 2011 UCL final, Messi was not human in that game, the greatness of that performance goes so far beyond his goal). This is like saying that Gerd Muller had a better World Cup in 1970, scoring 10 goals (the only match in which he did not score was the third place decision against Uruguay in which he did not play), was superior to Cruyff in 74, Garrincha in 62, Romário in 94 and Maradona in 86. I repeat: 6 players scored more goals than Cruyff in that World Cup, including his teammates Rep and Neeskens. Cruyff only scored three goals, but no one doubts that he was by far the best player of the tournament. But, by your logic for saying that CR7 in 2017 was superior to Messi in 2011 because he scored more goals, or that CR7's performance against Bayern in the second leg in 2017 was superior to Messi's performance against Bayern in the first leg in 2015 because CR7 scored three goals instead of two by Messi, then CR7's performance against Spain in the 2018 World Cup was superior to Cruyff's performance against Uruguay in the 1974 World Cup (a performance in which Cruyff did not score, yet he was still easily the best player of that match, one of the greatest individual performances in the history of the World Cup, full of technique, dribbling, playmaking and always being at the heart of every great attacking move of that fantastic Holland team), better than all Maradona's performances in the 1986 World Cup and better than Garrincha's performances against Chile and England, in the semifinals and quarter-finals respectively, in 1962 World Cup, a World Cup in which he was the best player too. Do you seriously think that?

Overall, you still need to answer all this in my original post:

"You missed the point. We are not trying to take away the merit of CR7's goals. It is truly amazing and fantastic that CR7 scored three goals against Bayern, it is worthy of all praise. The point is that goals alone are not a metric to rank the level of the performances! Is it that hard to understand?

Your sole argument for a Cristiano Ronaldo performance being better than a Messi performance is the number of goals! That is factually, much of the greatness in football can not be quantified and stats tend to be overrated lately. Stats do not tell everything about the level of a player. Based on your arguments to criticize Messi in UCL 2015 because he only scored two goals in the KO and had both Neymar and Suárez scoring more goals than him, then Johan Cruyff was carried by his teammates during his wonderful 1974 World Cup. No one doubts that Cruyff was magnificent and by far the best player of that World Cup, yet he only scored three goals in seven games, 2 against Argentina and one against Brazil. His teammates Neeskens and Rep scored 5 and 4 goals, respectively. There were six players who scored more goals than Cruyff in that World Cup. Let's remember the game in which CR7 scored three goals against Spain in 2018 World Cup. Are you seriously gonna tell me that Cristiano Ronaldo had a better performance than all Cruyff's games in the 1974 World Cup? Or Maradona's games in the 1986 World Cup? Or Garrincha's games in the 1962 World Cup? The game against Uruguay, in which Holland won 2-0, Cruyff did not score, Rep scored the two goals, yet Cruyff was clearly the best player of his team in that match, he was fantastic! Are you saying that CR7's performance against Spain was better than Cruyff against Uruguay in 1974 because he scored three goals and played for an average team while Cruyff scored none and played for one of the greatest teams ever? If your answer is yes, I give up on you."

Muller wasnt feted for being a fantastic allround footballer. If he was, with his resume, and his goals record, he would be held in higher regard. Its because he had a comparatively limited (compared to the other greats) repertoire. Why do you think De Kaiser is rated higher by many, despite playing in a defensive position?
This is why the comparison with Cristiano is apt. His allround game and repertoire is fairly basic compared to Diego, Leo and Pele. He works hard and does many things well. The other three are just otherworldly.

This is what CR7 fans do not understand.

I do not blame him for being short just as I do not blame Ronaldo for not having low center of gravity to be a great dribbler. I'm merely stating that being an aerial threat + having great off the ball movement in the box + speed on the counter might be more helpful to win big games than being a great dribbler or being able to ping long balls out wide to the fullback. How many times do you see goals scored in CL knockout stages from headers or long balls? Almost all the time. How many times do you see someone dribbling 3 players then putting it into the net? I don't even remember the last time.

You should watch the Barcelona 2-0 Real Madrid game in the UCL semi-finals of 2011, the first leg in Bernabéu. It was a very physical, scrappy, tight, nervous and ugly game. Neither team played good football, very unpleasant on the eyes. Iniesta was not playing and Xavi was being man-marked and not at his best. Yet Messi decided the game, scored perhaps the greatest UCL goal ever and virtually all of the few good plays that Barcelona had in that game were mainly created by Messi. Search Messi vs. Real 2011 Away

 

[Cal?]

Ok, I was mistaken, but it does not change all my line of thinking. The fact that you only pointed at my mistake and did not answer to everything else in my comment is proof of your bias. Anyway, no football fan should try to discredit one of the greatest UCL goals ever!

CR7 is fantastic, but goals are not the only measure of a player greatness. Stats do not do total justice to many players, you must watch them play. So much of football greatness is unquantifiable. In no way CR7 was in 2017 in a better overall level of performances than Messi in 2011 (specially his performance in the 2011 UCL final, Messi was not human in that game, the greatness of that performance goes so far beyond his goal). This is like saying that Gerd Muller had a better World Cup in 1970, scoring 10 goals (the only match in which he did not score was the third place decision against Uruguay in which he did not play), was superior to Cruyff in 74, Garrincha in 62, Romário in 94 and Maradona in 86. I repeat: 6 players scored more goals than Cruyff in that World Cup, including his teammates Rep and Neeskens. Cruyff only scored three goals, but no one doubts that he was by far the best player of the tournament. But, by your logic for saying that CR7 in 2017 was superior to Messi in 2011 because he scored more goals, or that CR7's performance against Bayern in the second leg in 2017 was superior to Messi's performance against Bayern in the first leg in 2015 because CR7 scored three goals instead of two by Messi, then CR7's performance against Spain in the 2018 World Cup was superior to Cruyff's performance against Uruguay in the 1974 World Cup (a performance in which Cruyff did not score, yet he was still easily the best player of that match, one of the greatest individual performances in the history of the World Cup, full of technique, dribbling, playmaking and always being at the heart of every great attacking move of that fantastic Holland team), better than all Maradona's performances in the 1986 World Cup and better than Garrincha's performances against Chile and England, in the semifinals and quarter-finals respectively, in 1962 World Cup, a World Cup in which he was the best player too. Do you seriously think that?

Overall, you still need to answer all this in my original post:

"You missed the point. We are not trying to take away the merit of CR7's goals. It is truly amazing and fantastic that CR7 scored three goals against Bayern, it is worthy of all praise. The point is that goals alone are not a metric to rank the level of the performances! Is it that hard to understand?

Your sole argument for a Cristiano Ronaldo performance being better than a Messi performance is the number of goals! That is factually, much of the greatness in football can not be quantified and stats tend to be overrated lately. Stats do not tell everything about the level of a player. Based on your arguments to criticize Messi in UCL 2015 because he only scored two goals in the KO and had both Neymar and Suárez scoring more goals than him, then Johan Cruyff was carried by his teammates during his wonderful 1974 World Cup. No one doubts that Cruyff was magnificent and by far the best player of that World Cup, yet he only scored three goals in seven games, 2 against Argentina and one against Brazil. His teammates Neeskens and Rep scored 5 and 4 goals, respectively. There were six players who scored more goals than Cruyff in that World Cup. Let's remember the game in which CR7 scored three goals against Spain in 2018 World Cup. Are you seriously gonna tell me that Cristiano Ronaldo had a better performance than all Cruyff's games in the 1974 World Cup? Or Maradona's games in the 1986 World Cup? Or Garrincha's games in the 1962 World Cup? The game against Uruguay, in which Holland won 2-0, Cruyff did not score, Rep scored the two goals, yet Cruyff was clearly the best player of his team in that match, he was fantastic! Are you saying that CR7's performance against Spain was better than Cruyff against Uruguay in 1974 because he scored three goals and played for an average team while Cruyff scored none and played for one of the greatest teams ever? If your answer is yes, I give up on you."

Firstly, we were talking about Ronald 17 v Messi 15, somehow you've decided to change the narrative to Messi 11?

I stand by my comment that Ronaldo 17 was the greatest CL performance in the history of the competition. Ronaldo basically won every single tie on his own from QF to SF and the final.

Juve 17 was also a better side than United 11, Juve made easy work of your beloved Messi & co in the QF, where was Messi then?

Muller, his performance in 1970 was excellent, and one can easily argue it's better than most of those you listed except Maradona 86. He even won the Ballon D'or that year.

Also, you're trying very hard to complicate the argument by going further and further back with your comparisons, the point is that, except Romario, not many of those you listed were the main goalscorer in their team like Messi is.

You should watch the Barcelona 2-0 Real Madrid game in the UCL semi-finals of 2011, the first leg in Bernabéu. It was a very physical, scrappy, tight, nervous and ugly game. Neither team played good football, very unpleasant on the eyes. Iniesta was not playing and Xavi was being man-marked and not at his best. Yet Messi decided the game, scored perhaps the greatest UCL goal ever and virtually all of the few good plays that Barcelona had in that game were mainly created by Messi. Search Messi vs. Real 2011 Away

Messi decided the game after Pepe got wrongly sent off and Jose' tactics got destroyed with it.

 

[Rito]

He's not responsible for everything good Barcelona ever does, but 99% of the time, he is. Same for when things dont go Barcelona's way, some times its because of him, but most of the time they arent.

How do we come up with this conclusion? By actually watching the games without having an agenda.

Do you write it with a straight face or having a chuckle?

Also, apparently only Messi fans watch the game of football, others only follow live scores.

 

[Rito]

Muller was a fantastic all round footballer, much better mentality than your hero too.

A world cup and a euro champion scoring double digit goals.

Not a four time bottler and a drama queen.

 

[matbezlima]

Firstly, we were talking about Ronald 17 v Messi 15, somehow you've decided to change the narrative to Messi 11?

I stand by my comment that Ronaldo 17 was the greatest CL performance in the history of the competition. Ronaldo basically won every single tie on his own from QF to SF and the final.

Juve 17 was also a better side than United 11, Juve made easy work of your beloved Messi & co in the QF, where was Messi then?

Muller, his performance in 1970 was excellent, and one can easily argue it's better than most of those you listed except Maradona 86. He even won the Ballon D'or that year.

Also, you're trying very hard to complicate the argument by going further and further back with your comparisons, the point is that, except Romario, not many of those you listed were the main goalscorer in their team like Messi is.



Messi decided the game after Pepe got wrongly sent off and Jose' tactics got destroyed with it.

I brought Messi 2011 because you said in a comment that CR7 2017 was a better player than Messi 2011, and I talk about Messi 2011 as the whole of his year, including CL, but not limited to it. Messi 2011 was a beast of technique and dribbling. CR7 can not match that inhuman level or R9 in 1996-1998. But I agree that CR7 in 2017 may have been the greatest KO performance in the history of the UCL when it comes to being decisive, tough I think that 2014 can rival that perhaps. But even that does not make an overall better player. Gerd Muller was more decisive than Cruyff in both UCL and World Cup, and Cruyff was the biggest goalscorer of Ajax, if I am not mistaken.

Messi against Juventus in 2017 has nothing to do with my argument. I am comparing with Messi at his prime.

And Cruyff was the main goalscorer of Ajax generally. I may be mistaken and cheated by my memory, so I will search better to give you stats later. A very good comparison of Cruyff in Holland 1974 team, tough, is with Messi 2015.

Do you know enough about Garrincha? He is at least in the top 10 of football history and the greatest brazilian player of all time behind Pelé, tough newer generations sadly do not value him as much as he deserves. His 1962 WC is LEGENDARY!

What you said about Pepe being sent off does in no way discredit one of the greatest goals in the history of UCL, all Messi's merit. And Real was lucky in that match to have only one player sent off. They transformed the game into a violent battle, a shameful party of cheating, diving and tension because they knew that they could not match Barcelona in a technical, clean and fair game and, the worst of all, Barcelona, who already are by no means an exemplary club, also went in the same boat. Disgraceful game from both teams, aside from Messi's second goal.

 

[Rito]

Muller wasnt feted for being a fantastic allround footballer. If he was, with his resume, and his goals record, he would be held in higher regard. Its because he had a comparatively limited (compared to the other greats) repertoire. Why do you think De Kaiser is rated higher by many, despite playing in a defensive position?
This is why the comparison with Cristiano is apt. His allround game and repertoire is fairly basic compared to Diego, Leo and Pele. He works hard and does many things well. The other three are just otherworldly.

Leo is more otherworldly than pele and Diego. These two didn't lose 4 finals with their Nt, made themselves drama queens, or missed penalties in the finals. Ya, Leo stands out.

 

[matbezlima]

Leo is more otherworldly than pele and Diego. These two didn't lose 4 finals with their Nt, made themselves drama queens, or missed penalties in the finals. Ya, Leo stands out.

Roberto Baggio missed a penalty in the 1994 World Cup final. Does that make him a bottler? NO! Things like that happen to everyone, all are fallible.

About Messi with NT, I agree that he has clearly shown a psychological weakness. This is important, but it is not really about the skills and technique of a player. And Messi is otherworldly like those Pelé and Maradona when it comes to all those technical attributes and skills, is it that hard to not see the point being made by the other user?

 

[Cal?]

I brought Messi 2011 because you said in a comment that CR7 2017 was a better player than Messi 2011, and I talk about Messi 2011 as the whole of his year, including CL, but not limited to it. Messi 2011 was a beast of technique and dribbling. CR7 can not match that inhuman level or R9 in 1996-1998. But I agree that CR7 in 2017 may have been the greatest KO performance in the history of the UCL when it comes to being decisive, tough I think that 2014 can rival that perhaps. But even that does not make an overall better player. Gerd Muller was more decisive than Cruyff in both UCL and World Cup, and Cruyff was the biggest goalscorer of Ajax, if I am not mistaken.

Messi against Juventus in 2017 has nothing to do with my argument. I am comparing with Messi at his prime.

And Cruyff was the main goalscorer of Ajax generally. A very good comparison of Cruyff in Holland 1974 team, tough, is with Messi 2015.

Do you know enough about Garrincha? He is at least in the top 10 of football history and the greatest brazilian player of all time behind Pelé, tough newer generations sadly do not value him as much as he deserves. His 1962 WC is LEGENDARY!

What you said about Pepe being sent off does in no way discredit one of the greatest goals in the history of UCL, all Messi's merit. And Real was lucky in that match to have only one player sent off. They transformed the game into a violent battle, a shameful party of cheating, diving and tension because they knew that they could not match Barcelona in a technical, clean and fair game and, the worst of all, Barcelona, who already are by no means an exemplary club, also went in the same boat. Disgraceful game from both teams, aside from Messi's second goal.

No one is arguing against Messi's Ballon D'or win in 2011, he did win the lot, even though Ronaldo matched his scoring record that year.

As for Luiz Ronaldo, I don't want to get sidetracked and clearly we'll never agree. For me, he is nowhere near Cristiano.

As least you admit Barca are every bit as dirty as Real in those 2 games. It was a great goal, but I wouldn't call it one of the greatest in UCL history.

I don't want to get into a debate about the older generation.

 

[Rito]

Roberto Baggio missed a penalty in the 1994 World Cup final. Does that make him a bottler? NO! Things like that happen to everyone, all are fallible.

That is the exact reason why 94 is remembered as Romario's world cup and not Baggio's . These are fine margins when we are talking about the greatest players.

Also, the "other poster" has argued in the past that Ronaldo is comparable to Inzaghi, cavani etc. So don't take his points too seriously.

 

[2mufc0]

Muller wasnt feted for being a fantastic allround footballer. If he was, with his resume, and his goals record, he would be held in higher regard. Its because he had a comparatively limited (compared to the other greats) repertoire. Why do you think De Kaiser is rated higher by many, despite playing in a defensive position?
This is why the comparison with Cristiano is apt. His allround game and repertoire is fairly basic compared to Diego, Leo and Pele. He works hard and does many things well. The other three are just otherworldly.

This just shows you've never watched any full games of him or ever had any conversations with people that followed his career. It's a shame in 2019 with so much access to information people can still be narrow minded, I suggest you get out of your Messi echo chamber.

Most people who know the game will put him in top 10 all time, you don't get there by just being a tap in merchant.

 

[2mufc0]

That is the exact reason why 94 is remembered as Romario's world cup and not Baggio's . These are fine margins when we are talking about the greatest players.

Also, the "other poster" has argued in the past that Ronaldo is comparable to Inzaghi, cavani etc. So don't take his points too seriously.

Bingo. At the very top it's small details like this that make the difference . But with Messi there's always an excuse for his mishaps.

 

[MJJ]

Messi career might end up being close to Platini's, who was regarded as the BPITW before maradona out shone him on the world cup stage.

 

[Fridge chutney]

The windup itself is just juvenile, it's the people who keep pointing to the poll, knowing full well that it's massively flawed that annoy me.

Here's a poll that the evil and biased RedCafe mods didn't manipulate. Spoiler: Messi still wins

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[A-boateng]

Don’t you guys get tired about arguing the same things? When either has a bad game the thread just jumps in pages.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

I would always pick a player who although has lesser talent than Messi but better than the rest, works his socks off, gives his all and doesn't stroll around the pitch.
Why i do i keep coming back to this thread