Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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RedRonaldo

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His transfer fee was over the top. He could never justify it. Overall he has 87 goals and 52 assists in 116 games for psg. With 20 goals and 12 assists in 28 games in the CL. Add to that his dribbling, chance creation and entertainment value which is what makes people watch football and he's not half bad. Personally I think he's a world class player but I wouldn't have him as the 2nd best or 3rd best every year.
Sure its not half bad, but expectation was very high on him remember, he hasn't quite match the kind of expectation we have on the 2nd or 3rd most talented/best player in the world during his supposedly peak years, in quite extensive period too. There's still quite a large gap between him in his peak years, with ageing Messi and Ronaldo, and young and inexperienced Mbappe, in terms of end products for extensive period of time, which is quite a shame. If you never rate him as top 3 player in the world, then of course there would no complain on him.
 
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RedRonaldo

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They have a vaguely similar philosophy nothing more. Its like comparing Solksjaers United to Fergusons in that they both like to counter attack. Anyone that says Pep, Enrique and Valverde share the same philosophy just doesn't watch much football. It really is that simple. Wasn't he literally named player of the tournament playing for an Argentina team who were happy without the ball?
Sure, but thats the whole point isn't it, even if he still did great for Argentina, I just don't think he was as good as compared to his Barca performances. He has far higher goal/assist ratio for Barca than for his country. His game is more based on possession attacking football with many short pass around, allowing him to play a free playmaking role with zero defensive duties. Don't get me wrong, in my mind he would still be considered as a GOAT in almost any strong/decent side he would play for, as he has the kind of football talent which is out of this world, and has the kind of consistency/longevity very very few could match throughout the history. But Barca would still be one of the best place for him which suit his game the best, even today.
 
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Zehner

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I am waiting for Zehner response on this, he would definitely claim Neymar is still the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world.
I have the guy on ignore since those comments about medication. Just occasionally display his posts to wind him up a bit ;)

But yes, Neymar is absolutely the second best player in the world right now. He might have an occasional attitude problem but his footballing ability is second only to Messi right now. Comparing him with Pogba is almost disprespectful. Not intending to belittle Pogba but Neymar his on a completely different level both ability as well as performance wise.

They have a vaguely similar philosophy nothing more. Its like comparing Solksjaers United to Fergusons in that they both like to counter attack. Anyone that says Pep, Enrique and Valverde share the same philosophy just doesn't watch much football. It really is that simple. Wasn't he literally named player of the tournament playing for an Argentina team who were happy without the ball?
This. Messi has excelled in many different systems and positions. It's a really stick to beat him with. Especially in this context when you see the influence Cristiano had on the outputs of team mates like Benzema or Dybala.
 

Bebestation

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I'm purely guessing here but has Barcelona played anything other than 433 during Messi's time there?
 

Gehrman

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Sure its not half bad, but expectation was very high on him remember, he hasn't quite match the kind of expectation we have on the 2nd or 3rd most talented/best player in the world during his supposedly peak years, in quite extensive period too. There's still quite a large gap between him in his peak years, with ageing Messi and Ronaldo, and young and inexperienced Mbappe, in terms of end products for extensive period of time, which is quite a shame. If you never rate him as top 3 player in the world, then of course there would no complain on him.
I find rating players by goals mainly a very superficial way to rate a players quality. It makes sense if the player is a pure striker, but Neymar isnt an out and out striker at the end of the day and has a lot more of the creative burden on him. However i wont deny that great players thrive playing next to other great players its just common sense in a 11 man team game. As neither a Barcelona, PSG or Neymar fan I dont have a lot of invested in him id just say him falling of the radar also has something to do with him playing for a plastic club in an inferior league where neutrals only watch him in the CL rather than in on the biggest clubs in the world like barcelona. There is no doubt that PSG's failure to win a CL so far and especially not winning the league this year is failure of the club and players.
 
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Revan

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They beat Brazil in the Maracanã.

That is a far more difficult accomplishment than anything Portugal did in the Euros.

It's not even close.
How many times Brazil needs to get embarrassed by European teams to stop imaging them as a top team? The last time they defeated a top European team was in 2002.

There are half a dozen European teams who are better than Brazil, and half a dozen more who are as good. Nowadays they are in the level of Czech Republic.
 

Revan

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You are right in saying that it is indeed more difficult in winning a Euro in general. Just look at Italy 2021 route > Belgium, Spain and England on the way to winning. Even England had to face Germany and Italy had they won it. Both finished top of their groups as well.

However, looking at Portugal’s 2016 run, they had finished 3rd in a group consisting of themselves, Iceland, Austria and Hungary. They did not win any games against those 3 opponents.
They then played Poland, Croatia and Wales in the knockout stages, and only won 1 game in 90mins. Finally they met the only good opponent in France, which credit to them they beat with CR7 being the GOAT cheerleader.

Am I supposed to be impressed by this run?
Well lets just say I am more impressed by Portugal’s run than CR7’s run, since they at least beat France. But overall, is this that high quality Euro run that you talked about?
Croatia reached the World Cup final just two years later. Portugal defeated the two teams who reached the World Cup final, both top teams (and Wales were exceptional in that tournament).

Euros is way harder to win than Copa America. It is also played every 4 years instead of every year.
 

Daysleeper

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Madness the 4th best player in the world loses the title to Rennes or some budget team isn't it :lol:

Meanwhile you see CL winners and world cup winners or euro winners in the same year no where near :houllier:
and still made the CL semi final and final in recent years
 

Chekov

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How many times Brazil needs to get embarrassed by European teams to stop imaging them as a top team? The last time they defeated a top European team was in 2002.

There are half a dozen European teams who are better than Brazil, and half a dozen more who are as good. Nowadays they are in the level of Czech Republic.
Sure Brazil havent been that strong since the generation with Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Cafu, Roberto Carlos but to say they are on the level of Czech Republic is just silly.

Tell me six european teams that are better than brazil and six teams that are as good.

Argentina beating their arch enemy Brazil at their sacred arena is huge and Argentina+Brazil > France+Portugal. For now Brazil+Argentina is probably similiar quality of France+Portugal, slight edge to the south americans quality wise. Adding in history and legacy Brazil vs Argentina is a much bigger football match than France vs Portugal.

Neither France or Portugal are the the biggest european footballing nations regarding legacy and history, Germany and Italy both has more weight in the footballing world.
 

Chekov

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Not saying Copa America is as big as the Euros but a final between Argentina vs Brazil at Maracana is a big game.
 

Revan

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Sure Brazil havent been that strong since the generation with Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Cafu, Roberto Carlos but to say they are on the level of Czech Republic is just silly.

Tell me six european teams that are better than brazil and six teams that are as good.

Argentina beating their arch enemy Brazil at their sacred arena is huge and Argentina+Brazil > France+Portugal. For now Brazil+Argentina is probably similiar quality of France+Portugal, slight edge to the south americans quality wise. Adding in history and legacy Brazil vs Argentina is a much bigger football match than France vs Portugal.

Neither France or Portugal are the the biggest european footballing nations regarding legacy and history, Germany and Italy both has more weight in the footballing world.
I would back France, Italy, Germany, Spain, England and Belgium to defeat Brazil. I would say that Croatia, Portugal, Switzerland, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Czech Republic would all be close matches vs them. Since Brazil won the last World Cup, they faced European teams 9 times in World Cup. Their record is 2 wins, 2 draws and 5 defeats. Both of their victories came in group stage, all of their five defeats came in knockout stage.

Truth is, Brazil has been very shit for a while (and getting worse with every World Cup) and now are as threatening as a little puppy. France is better than Brazil and Argentina combined, heck there are at most 3 Brazilian players (Ederson, Marquinhos and Neymar) who would start for France. And one from Argentina.

Argentina’s record vs European teams is a bit better this century, but not great. 5 wins, 2 draws, 5 defeats. 3 wins in KO, 4 defeats there.
 
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mshnsh

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Again not saying he couldn't, but there is still clear advantage for him in today's Barca team in terms of suiting his playing style, as they are always playing under same philosophy/system, with the team entirely build around him. For example, even they have been relatively "poor" this season, they still have average 62.4% possession in the league, with 93% in short pass, which is still by far the highest. In comparison, league champions Atletico only has avg 51.8% possession and 86% in short pass. Real has 57.7% possession and 87% short pass. Imagine if he plays under a team with more long balls, and counter attack approach, or more defensive approach, he might not be able to produce same high level of football as much as he did at Barca, which is very natural. This could even be applied to other best attacking players in the past like Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc.
Where ever he would move, the team would be built around him because it simply would not make any sense not to. So your argument is false. All it would take is some games and training sessions to establish chemistry and confidence with his team mates and he'd dominate whatever league he plays for.
 

Daysleeper

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Messi at his lowest point is still better than Ronaldo at his peak:


 

Zehner

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Madness the 4th best player in the world loses the title to Rennes or some budget team isn't it :lol:

Meanwhile you see CL winners and world cup winners or euro winners in the same year no where near :houllier:
No, not the fourth best, the second best.
 

Neymar

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I would even say Neymar is the best, full stop. Messi is significantly declined from even two seasons ago, he's not the perfect player he used to be and is a massive liability without the ball. It's more pronounced now because he tends to lose the ball whereas before he never lost posession. He even gives the ball away cheaply now, something that was unthinkable a couple of years ago.

With all that Neymar offers going forward and in defense I think it's safe to make a case for him being #1 in the world. He's more dynamic than Messi going forward, more creative, and has more to give to his team. Shocking, I know, but I believe it to be true. Last season (19/20) I would have still said Messi.
 

RedRonaldo

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I would even say Neymar is the best, full stop. Messi is significantly declined from even two seasons ago, he's not the perfect player he used to be and is a massive liability without the ball. It's more pronounced now because he tends to lose the ball whereas before he never lost posession. He even gives the ball away cheaply now, something that was unthinkable a couple of years ago.

With all that Neymar offers going forward and in defense I think it's safe to make a case for him being #1 in the world. He's more dynamic than Messi going forward, more creative, and has more to give to his team. Shocking, I know, but I believe it to be true. Last season (19/20) I would have still said Messi.
Well to suggest he is 2nd best is already shocking, and this is beyond shocking.

Expectation: 2nd or 3rd best (especially at this peak age)
Reality: not even top 5 for me. Maybe currently at around 7th behind Messi, Lewandoski, Ronaldo, Mbappe, Haaland, De Bruyne.
Madness: to suggest he is 2nd best
Insanity: to suggest he is the best
 

In Rainbows

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It also rests on the logic that as others have said a player like Maradona went to Barcelona and didn't set the world alight to the standards expected. So many players fail to do this and you see it season after season - yet we are expected to believe Messi will purely by nothing?
Messi would be playing under Pep, the manager he played under in the past. Playing in the same system Pep has always used at every club he has managed. Why would Messi fail under Pep at City? It's an absurd argument.
 

In Rainbows

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Croatia reached the World Cup final just two years later. Portugal defeated the two teams who reached the World Cup final, both top teams (and Wales were exceptional in that tournament).

Euros is way harder to win than Copa America. It is also played every 4 years instead of every year.
Copa America isn't played every year. Its played every 4 years apart from the 100 year anniversary tournament. Although this has nothing to do with your point. Just wanted to point that out.
 

RedRonaldo

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Copa America isn't played every year. Its played every 4 years apart from the 100 year anniversary tournament. Although this has nothing to do with your point. Just wanted to point that out.
Err… not really

2015, 2016, 2019, 2021. 4 times in past 6 years.

And from 1987 - 2001, 8 times in 13 years.

So, if we compare the period from let’s say 1987-2021:

Copa America: held 15 times
Euro: held 9 times

Quite a huge difference.
 
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In Rainbows

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Err… not really
Every 2 years. It was every 4 years during Messi's start of his career.
2004 - 2007- 2011 - 2015 - 2016 (100 year anniversary)- 2019- 2021

Well in this case it's a mess, so the average is 2.43 if you include the Centenario. 2.83 if you don't include it. It's super inconsistent.
 

RedRonaldo

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Every 2 years. It was every 4 years during Messi's start of his career.
2004 - 2007- 2011 - 2015 - 2016 (100 year anniversary)- 2019- 2021

Well in this case it's a mess, so the average is 2.43 if you include the Centenario. 2.83 if you don't include it. It's super inconsistent.
Yes it’s very inconsistent. It changed from every 2 years to 3 years to 4 years randomly. So random it’s impossible to understand why they keep changing it over the years.
 

Bebestation

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Say if Messi was a Manchester born player and decided to be loyal to Manchester City all his career like he has been loyal to Barcelona - managed through his career by managers like Sven Goran Eriksson, Mark Hughes, Roberto Mancini, Brian Kidd, Pellegrini and Pep Guardiola - people think he would have had a better career at City in the English league with that variety of managers, that variety of tactics and changes and styles played and played against than Cristiano Ronaldo :lol:
 

Lord SInister

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Say if Messi was a Manchester born player and decided to be loyal to Manchester City all his career like he has been loyal to Barcelona - managed through his career by managers like Sven Goran Eriksson, Mark Hughes, Roberto Mancini, Brian Kidd, Pellegrini and Pep Guardiola - people think he would have had a better career at City in the English league with that variety of managers, that variety of tactics and changes and styles played and played against than Cristiano Ronaldo :lol:
If he was at Man City of early to mid 2000s, he would have been sold to bigger clubs because pre-oil money, they used to sell all of their best players.
So this hypothetical scenario doesn't make any sense.
 

Bebestation

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If he was at Man City of early to mid 2000s, he would have been sold to bigger clubs because pre-oil money, they used to sell all of their best players.
So this hypothetical scenario doesn't make any sense.
And this is why when people say Messi will be successful at City if he moved to the PL - its more showing he will be successful under Pep as a manager in particular.
 

Swoobs

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He did win everything in Italy though, both collectively and individually. The only trophy he didn’t win Juventus is CL. Messi hasn’t won one either in past 6 years at Barca, despite being by far the most paid player in the world.

Even last season he didn’t the league (neither did Messi), he still managed to win double domestic cup trophy with Juventus, and finished as Serie A top scorer and Euro top scorer. So winning nothing is incorrect description (2 domestic cups and 2 top scorer awards).
Yes I typed too fast there, refer to the previous paragraph, i specifically said League or CL.

Of course Messi did not win the CL in the past 6 years, he was not managed by SAF, Zidane or Pep. That he won one under Enrique said a lot about MSN and him.

Plus the whole point is Messi still won the league (in a 3 horse league) under Valverde and Tito level managers.

Still my bad for not being clear
 

kc7

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One of the major weaknesses of Ronaldo is his inability to consistently dominate the national leagues. I mean he won only 5 out of 15 in Premier League and La Liga despite working with some of the best managers, and that is kind of a bad record for someone claiming Goat status. His record in Spain is ridiculous to be honest, he won only 2 out of 9 where his biggest rival won 6 in these 9 . I actually think one of the major reasons why Ronaldo decided to move to Juventus was to improve is poor league record though his fans were calling his move a big challenge while accusing Messi of not leaving his comfort zone. He went to a team that played two CL finals in the last 4 years and won 8 league championships in a row prior to his arrival and miserably failed in my eyes. Juve could only finish 4th last season (the worst season they had in the last 10 years) and has failed big time in the CL with Ronaldo in all three seasons. I really have no idea how his fans think he succeeded in his Juve challenge.. Also, can you imagine the type of criticisms Messi would receive (especially from Ronaldo fans) if he went to Juve instead of Ronaldo with Juve performing the same way in all these three years?
 

RedRonaldo

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I have the guy on ignore since those comments about medication. Just occasionally display his posts to wind him up a bit ;)

But yes, Neymar is absolutely the second best player in the world right now. He might have an occasional attitude problem but his footballing ability is second only to Messi right now. Comparing him with Pogba is almost disprespectful. Not intending to belittle Pogba but Neymar his on a completely different level both ability as well as performance wise.
I knew you would say this… not that I’d agree because you know I always look more into stats/impact for forward players, while your focus is more on talent/performance. But surprise you didn’t rate Pogba as highly, as he was quite an amazing midfielder when he is on form.
 

Lord SInister

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And this is why when people say Messi will be successful at City if he moved to the PL - its more showing he will be successful under Pep as a manager in particular.
It is just opinion of people, it shows nothing, who knows he would be a major flop in EPL or he would league with Arsenal but why does it even matter.
It isn't like you thinking him not playing successfully in different leagues, is going to change anything of what someone thinks who thinks Messi is the best.
I don't think not playing for a side like Newcastle and winning treble with them, is going to make him any less player in eyes of people.
I mean once a person made their mind it is difficult to change it. I mean Messi can win WC next year being the top scorer and Golden Ball, still you won't consider him GOAT, because he didn't do it in different leagues. So why does it even matter?
 

Gehrman

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And this is why when people say Messi will be successful at City if he moved to the PL - its more showing he will be successful under Pep as a manager in particular.
Messi would definitely be sold to a big club regardless. Inter tried to buy him for 150 mil euros when he was 18 and not even proven. Would Messi be less succesfull under a team like Wigan? Most likely. Would Ronaldo also? Also most likely.
 

Zehner

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I knew you would say this… not that I’d agree because you know I always look more into stats/impact for forward players, while your focus is more on talent/performance. But surprise you didn’t rate Pogba as highly, as he was quite an amazing midfielder when he is on form.
Neymar is statistically in a cohort of his own. The only player who can keep up with Messi in so many attacking different attacking stats with Sancho on the third place.

And I rate Pogba but he's nowhere near Neymar. Pogba for my liking doesn't have enough impact for a player who gives the ball away as often. I think he can be very frustrating to watch since I don't like his decision making for a midfielder. He would have to achieve De Bruyne numbers to justify his wastefulness. And since he doesn't he should recycle possession much better than he does. But even if he did all those things right, he wouldn't be in the same ball park as Neymar since not even de Bruyne is.

But that's just my opinion. I can see absolutely why people rate Pogba highly, his EC for instance was breathtaking, but I just think he's a player who looks great in highlight reels and not nearly as good in live matches.

He's not even the best in the French league this year.
He's head and shoulders above Mbappe if you're referring to him and pretty much everybody who watches PSG regularly will confirm that. No offense but rating Mbappe over Neymar to me is a xlear sign of focusing on output too nuch when rating a player. Just like Messi does more than Cristiano that's not reflecting in his stats, Neymar does more than Mbappe. Basically the same discussion.
 

Lay

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Say if Messi was a Manchester born player and decided to be loyal to Manchester City all his career like he has been loyal to Barcelona - managed through his career by managers like Sven Goran Eriksson, Mark Hughes, Roberto Mancini, Brian Kidd, Pellegrini and Pep Guardiola - people think he would have had a better career at City in the English league with that variety of managers, that variety of tactics and changes and styles played and played against than Cristiano Ronaldo :lol:
Knew you’d be back
 

mshnsh

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It's almost as if you guys cannot see beyond goals scored. If x scored 40 compared to y who scored 30 than than x is definitely better than y. Which means Mbappe is better than Neymar, Ronaldo better than Messi, Paolo Rossi better than Maradona/Zico, Lampard the Goat midfielder in England, Muller the undisputed GOAT etc @RedRonaldo @Bebestation

Unfortunately, the rest of us actually watch the matches and I can comfortably say that the number 10s bring/brought much more to the table than the others.

Before you call me anti Ronaldo, I reiterate, I consider Ronaldo to be the top 5 of all time. I just consider Messi to be the better footballer and I don't know why you need to argue. It's objective based stats beyond just goals and also based on actually watching the game. There is no shame in being second to one of the (if not THE) most naturally talented footballers ever.

I also am not a Neymar fan but I believe he is only second to Messi interms of natural ability of the players currently playing but he lacks the maturity. The decision to move to a PSG, the play acting and all the other silly stuff is an example.
 

Bole Top

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Also, can you imagine the type of criticisms Messi would receive (especially from Ronaldo fans) if he went to Juve instead of Ronaldo with Juve performing the same way in all these three years?
aye. "he was without a single shot on goal vs Lyon for 120 minutes because he's old." right. "he was without proper service, that's why he was afraid to stand in the wall vs Porto." yeah, ok. never change CR SofaScore fans.

that's actually the main difference between them. Messi gets eaten alive after much better performances vs Liverpool and PSG in both ties while it's perfectly normal for Ronaldo to be quiet during the game when he doesn't score, even against much weaker teams. he gets less criticism because he's simply a lesser player without such ridiculous expectations on his shoulders.

if anything, the biggest compliments Messi gets precisely from CR fanboys when they say it's easy to score playing for Barca. I know they don't actually watch football matches, but the truth is, the only reason why a free kick or having to dribble past 2 or 3 defenders and score is being considered a good chance is because Messi is simply that good. therefore, he's expected to continue doing it. same goes for having to return deep to collect the ball and create vast majority of Barca's attacks while keeping the usual goalscoring numbers.

last 3 years in CL with Barca at it's weakest in a while are good example of that - was that goal after dribbling past 5 Napoli players created by team? was his long range free kick vs Liverpool created by team? were his solo long range goals vs United created by team? was his 35-yard goal vs PSG created by team? in any other circumstances, the most obvious example being current Juve & Ronaldo, if those were your best chances in a match CR fans would be talking about how "the team don't create enough for him". but for Messi, it's always easy to score for Barca.
 

Gehrman

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It's almost as if you guys cannot see beyond goals scored. If x scored 40 compared to y who scored 30 than than x is definitely better than y. Which means Mbappe is better than Neymar, Ronaldo better than Messi, Paolo Rossi better than Maradona/Zico, Lampard the Goat midfielder in England, Muller the undisputed GOAT etc @RedRonaldo @Bebestation

Unfortunately, the rest of us actually watch the matches and I can comfortably say that the number 10s bring/brought much more to the table than the others.

Before you call me anti Ronaldo, I reiterate, I consider Ronaldo to be the top 5 of all time. I just consider Messi to be the better footballer and I don't know why you need to argue. It's objective based stats beyond just goals and also based on actually watching the game. There is no shame in being second to one of the (if not THE) most naturally talented footballers ever.

I also am not a Neymar fan but I believe he is only second to Messi interms of natural ability of the players currently playing but he lacks the maturity. The decision to move to a PSG, the play acting and all the other silly stuff is an example.
Paolo Rossi didnt score more than Maradonna/Zixo though, but you're correct that simply looking at goals scored is a superficial assesment of a player that isnt the ultimate assesment of a player unless the player is a pure poacher. But even so Ronaldo isnt a better goalscorer than Messi, they are about even whilst Messi often drops much deeper than Ronaldo is far more involved in the overall play of the team. Ronaldo has his well deserved CL goal record though which i doubt Messi will catch. Haaland and Mbappe may though by the time they retire.
 

RedRonaldo

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It's almost as if you guys cannot see beyond goals scored. If x scored 40 compared to y who scored 30 than than x is definitely better than y. Which means Mbappe is better than Neymar, Ronaldo better than Messi, Paolo Rossi better than Maradona/Zico, Lampard the Goat midfielder in England, Muller the undisputed GOAT etc @RedRonaldo @Bebestation

Unfortunately, the rest of us actually watch the matches and I can comfortably say that the number 10s bring/brought much more to the table than the others.

Before you call me anti Ronaldo, I reiterate, I consider Ronaldo to be the top 5 of all time. I just consider Messi to be the better footballer and I don't know why you need to argue. It's objective based stats beyond just goals and also based on actually watching the game. There is no shame in being second to one of the (if not THE) most naturally talented footballers ever.

I also am not a Neymar fan but I believe he is only second to Messi interms of natural ability of the players currently playing but he lacks the maturity. The decision to move to a PSG, the play acting and all the other silly stuff is an example.
Not really. I never rate midfielder on goals, not at all, because their roles in the team are completely different. And I do rate Zidane, Xavi, Iniesta far far higher than Lampard, Bruno etc.

For forward players though (no.9 or wing forward etc), in most case, goals are in fact always one of the top most important aspect of the game, if not the most. It’s just the same reason why we don’t rate Martial here because of his lack of end products as forward player, and same thing why we rate Greenwood during his first breakthrough season with us, and why Haaland and Mbappe are widely regarded as generational talent - it’s their ability to score lots of goals.

But sure for some case I’d judge forward players like Cantona differently, as he is more of a creator rather than goalscorer. I do rate Messi playmaking highly too, and of course I like Sancho too. Both Cantona and Messi are the king of assists during their era, Cantona was God of creator, and Messi is GOAT goalscorer+playmaker, while Sancho is still young and not far behind them at similar age. So, end products is still very important for forward players, no matter whether he is more of a goalscorer or creator.

But as for Neymar, his overall output has been comparatively lacking over past 3 years, even though his skill level or overall attacking contribution (2nd assist, or involvement in attack play which leads to goals etc) are very good, still it doesn’t make the cut to justify himself as top 2 or 3 player in the world, mainly because he wasn’t anywhere near top 3-5 in his “primary role”. Last season he only has 15 goals and 7 assist, the season before he had 16 goals 10 assist. It’s just isn’t good enough for supposedly top 2-3 player in the world. I am not asking him to be one of the best in terms of output, but at least try to get a more respectable/comparable output/end products first, before he could be considered as top 2-3 player in the world again.
 
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