Mesut Özil retires from "die Mannschaft"

fcbforever

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No it isn't. There is loads and loads of articles of truth money transactions, convoy swapping, clear american branded weaponry etc etc. Honestly I can't be bothered to send you all the articles google is there for you. Unless you would rather just believe the west is never doing anything wrong.
That sending weapons into a civil war is not a particularly smart idea because some of them will end up in the wrong hands is out of the question here. That doesn't change the fact that the US did not in any way fund ISIS. That's on the Saudis.
 

RoadTrip

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Can is absolutely relevant, as is Gündogan, because it pretty clearly shows what Özil could have done differently. Instead he blames anyone but himself. Yes, there's a lot of others to blame here, but Özil isn't just a victim here. He has brought this onto himself in a lot of ways.
So what’s the issue here? If I’m saying Ozil is naive in stupid then it’s quite obvious I think he could have done it differently?

I’m not really sure we are even disagreeing.
 

Hellboy

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That sending weapons into a civil war is not a particularly smart idea because some of them will end up in the wrong hands is out of the question here. That doesn't change the fact that the US did not in any way fund ISIS. That's on the Saudis.
you live in la-la-land.
 

RoadTrip

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I'm in no way saying Obama is evil, my point is that if you want to argue that Erdogan is some heinous person and taking a picture with him should mean you're sacked, then why not put the same standards to other politicans?

Obama had done a lot of good for his own country, but his foreign policy was absolutely atrocious. From cowardly drone bombing to supporting bloody coups in Libya and Syria (the wrong way, thereby empowering ISIS). Erdogan has done alot of wrong as well but it's stupid to ignore all the good he has done and equate him with some of the worst people in the world.
To be blunt, the big difference is where the decisions came from. Obama did things because he thought they were the correct things to do. Genuine mistakes, if they were even that.

But people like Erdogan do bad things for bad reasons.
 

mancan92

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That sending weapons into a civil war is not a particularly smart idea because some of them will end up in the wrong hands is out of the question here. That doesn't change the fact that the US did not in any way fund ISIS. That's on the Saudis.
Alright mate. Don't worry Western leaders = good guys everyone else = bad guys
 

Pagh Wraith

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To be blunt, the big difference is where the decisions came from. Obama did things because he thought they were the correct things to do. Genuine mistakes, if they were even that.
Tell that to the victims of 70 years of American and Western imperialism. Geniune mistakes, my word.
 

hasanejaz88

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I don't have the necessary information about what the US are doing in Pakistan so I don't really have a distinct opinion on the matter.
And how did you come up with Hitler? I never mentioned him.
I mentioned that he is support in his country and you said that I should read up on my history regarding dictators who had support in their country. Who are you referring to in the history that I should be reading up on?
 

mancan92

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To be blunt, the big difference is where the decisions came from. Obama did things because he thought they were the correct things to do. Genuine mistakes, if they were even that.

But people like Erdogan do bad things for bad reasons.
You can't make genuine mistakes to kill thousands. You simply cannot.

Next you will say that black people being 20 times more likely to be jailed as a social coincidence. Come on don't be that naive
 

africanspur

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To be blunt, the big difference is where the decisions came from. Obama did things because he thought they were the correct things to do. Genuine mistakes, if they were even that.

But people like Erdogan do bad things for bad reasons.
I've already said my thoughts on Erdogan on this thread but this is a very simplistic, almost fairy tale like description of politics and politicians.

I think the overwhelming majority of world leaders make decisions based on what they think are the correct things to do. Whether they have mnaged to convince themselves of that fact or not is a different matter but this caricature of Erdogan is just baffling, especially when juxtaposed with saying the bad things Western leaders do (or certain ones) are coming with good intentions.
 

do.ob

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I mentioned that he is support in his country and you said that I should read up on my history regarding dictators who had support in their country. Who are you referring to in the history that I should be reading up on?
Almost all of them, because it's a common theme for dictators to have fabulous results at elections?
 

Kasper

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Can't believe that piece of shit Hoeneß is now also jumping in. Definitely the moral authority needed here. Amusing how he (and the rest who're jumping on the "He's been playing shit anyway" ship) never mention someone like Muller who's been dogshit for the NT for quite a while.
 

Zlatattack

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Are you really fecking acting like nobody in the west is criticzing drone strikes in Yemen and Pakistan? Are you that delusional? And even then, do you really not see a difference between those and what is happening in Syria? and to the Kurds? Do you compare Erdogans "reforms" to seating a new judge on the SCOJ?

Unbelievable.
Turkey created a safezone in Syria to protect itself and people of Turkish ethnic descent. The US has armed forces stationed across 70% of the world to "protect itself".

Turkey has been fighting a Kurdish insurgency for decades, the US started a war for oil and destablised the entire middle east.

Tell me where the comparisons are?
 

RoadTrip

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I've already said my thoughts on Erdogan on this thread but this is a very simplistic, almost fairy tale like description of politics and politicians.

I think the overwhelming majority of world leaders make decisions based on what they think are the correct things to do. Whether they have mnaged to convince themselves of that fact or not is a different matter but this caricature of Erdogan is just baffling, especially when juxtaposed with saying the bad things Western leaders do (or certain ones) are coming with good intentions.
Perhaps. But there are plenty of leaders who make bad decisions, knowingly, to cement their own power. For me that’s what separates people like Erdogan.
 

hasanejaz88

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To be blunt, the big difference is where the decisions came from. Obama did things because he thought they were the correct things to do. Genuine mistakes, if they were even that.

But people like Erdogan do bad things for bad reasons.
What? Dude, you're being really naive. The CIA, and Obama, knew exactly what they were doing when they began using drone strikes and the impact it would have on the communities they are dropping them on.
 

B20

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You can't make genuine mistakes to kill thousands. You simply cannot.
The unfortunate reality is that yes you can, when you govern the biggest military force in the world who have taken upon themselves to police the rest of the word and where inaction is as likely to cost even more lives.

If Obama had been more willing to make mistakes that could kill thousands in Syria, it probably would have saved the lives of hundreds of thousands.
 

RoadTrip

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You can't make genuine mistakes to kill thousands. You simply cannot.

Next you will say that black people being 20 times more likely to be jailed as a social coincidence. Come on don't be that naive
Except I didn’t and wouldn’t say that. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you want to discuss the point then discuss it properly otherwise please do ignore my posts and save yourself the time.
 

UweBein

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Doesn't your moral compass expand to people outside of your country who are being murdered without just cause?
You're very rambling. It's not about who's the bad guy. It's about who's perceived as evil. And Erdogan is the evil overlord right now in Germany. And Mesut should have been aware of that. Everything else is what if talk (so something of a philosophical discussion.)
 

fcbforever

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Turkey created a safezone in Syria to protect itself and people of Turkish ethnic descent. The US has armed forces stationed across 70% of the world to "protect itself".

Turkey has been fighting a Kurdish insurgency for decades, the US started a war for oil and destablised the entire middle east.

Tell me where the comparisons are?
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Okay, let's end it here. Safe zones for the poor snowflakes or what? :lol::lol::lol:
 

RoadTrip

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What? Dude, you're being really naive. The CIA, and Obama, knew exactly what they were doing when they began using drone strikes and the impact it would have on the communities they are dropping them on.
No, you’re naive. Obama knew there would be collateral damage. Heck, he has many many times acknowledged that and spoken about it. But in his judgement he outweighed this with what he thought would be protecting Americans. Rightly or wrongly.
 

do.ob

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What the hell has this thread turned into :lol: ? I thought this was supposed to be about football only
It's always been a political issue. This thread belongs in the CE forum.
 

RoadTrip

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You are mistaking them for the Taliban mate. The state of this discussion, fecking hell....
You can stop being so patronising. And go start doing some reading. There’s a reason why that whole section in the Middle East is so well armed, whether incidentally or directly.
 

bund

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The problem in my opinion is that Özil meeting "his" president during his election campaign in Germany symbolizes for many people in Germany the group of German-Turks who live in Germany but vote for Erdogan in Turkey. Basically they enjoy the good life and freedom in a democratic country like Germany, but in the same time vote for a power-thursty dictator, who wants to go back in time and reduce Turkey to a religion-based country. Basically two thirds of the Turkish people in Germany voted for Erdogan which for many is a real hypocricy. Same goes for Özil who enjoys the life of a superstar and wants to be threated like a German citizen, but goes the extra mile to go and take pictures with "his" president.

Like many other have said he should have been kicked out of the team immediately.
 

NoLogo

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Glad he isn't playing for our national team anymore but not the manner in which he retired, that's really shameful for the DFB and large parts of the German press. Now I just hope Khedira, Hummels, Boateng, Müller and Kroos will follow and we can start building a new team with a new generation of players.
 

africanspur

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Perhaps. But there are plenty of leaders who make bad decisions, knowingly, to cement their own power. For me that’s what separates people like Erdogan.
And I'm sure Erdogan thinks what he is doing is best for his country as well. In all honesty, I think Mugabe, Gadaffi, Assad, insert favourite dictator of your choice, genuinely believe that what they are doing is necessary and best for their country.

For example, the Kurdish insurgency in Turkey seems to have been taken on by people who want to criticise Erdogan as Erdogan's issue, his problem, as if he created it, ignoring that it is actually a problem that has been ongoing for decades, that the Turkish military has been committing atrocities in the SE for decades and that most ethnic Turks consider it unacceptable to have a large chunk of their country cleaved off.

Now, I'm all for self determination and don't agree with the above. But I'm sure that Erdogan sees the response to the Kurds as best for the country (just as he did when he was trying to negotiate before). Whether that is the best or not is a whole other matter.
 

fcbforever

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You can stop being so patronising. And go start doing some reading. There’s a reason why that whole section in the Middle East is so well armed, whether incidentally or directly.
"Go start some reading". Yeah, I really should. After all, I just wrote my master thesis on the influence of Russia on the Syrian civil war :lol:
Your argument is just stupid. Yes, there's a lot of weapons in those areas which were built by the Americans or Russians. Most of those, pretty much all of them if we are speaking about more sophisticated equipment, in the hand of governments. That still doesn't equate to "funding ISIS".
 

RoadTrip

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And I'm sure Erdogan thinks what he is doing is best for his country as well. In all honesty, I think Mugabe, Gadaffi, Assad, insert favourite dictator of your choice, genuinely believe that what they are doing is necessary and best for their country.

For example, the Kurdish insurgency in Turkey seems to have been taken on by people who want to criticise Erdogan as Erdogan's issue, his problem, as if he created it, ignoring that it is actually a problem that has been ongoing for decades, that the Turkish military has been committing atrocities in the SE for decades and that most ethnic Turks consider it unacceptable to have a large chunk of their country cleaved off.

Now, I'm all for self determination and don't agree with the above. But I'm sure that Erdogan sees the response to the Kurds as best for the country (just as he did when he was trying to negotiate before). Whether that is the best or not is a whole other matter.
Perhaps. But I guess we will never know. And either viewpoint is believable I think.
 

LazyRed-Ninja

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Go ahead! Not that you would find anything even remotely translating to that.
Alright then.


0:10 Obama blatantly admits that under his reign the USA were training ISIL forces in Iraq. So, the extremist groups who are/were portrayed as the extremist 'bad guys' were trained by the nation(s) who classified them as such? ..

...
 

RoadTrip

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"Go start some reading". Yeah, I really should. After all, I just wrote my master thesis on the influence of Russia on the Syrian civil war :lol:
Your argument is just stupid. Yes, there's a lot of weapons in those areas which were built by the Americans or Russians. Most of those, pretty much all of them if we are speaking about more sophisticated equipment, in the hand of governments. That still doesn't equate to "funding ISIS".
And you have no idea of my knowledge or history in the matter either. So perhaps best to leave it where it is.
 

mancan92

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Except I didn’t and wouldn’t say that. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you want to discuss the point then discuss it properly otherwise please do ignore my posts and save yourself the time.
Well you made just as much of an outrageous statement. It's complete ignorance to believe that America is good guys but unlucky
 

fcbforever

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Glad he isn't playing for our national team anymore but not the manner in which he retired, that's really shameful for the DFB and large parts of the German press. Now I just hope Khedira, Hummels, Boateng, Müller and Kroos will follow and we can start building a new team with a new generation of players.
Khedira is finished, but there's no reason for the others to retire and they won't.
 

fcbforever

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And you have no idea of my knowledge or history in the matter either. So perhaps best to leave it where it is.
I would equate it to "not very much" given your statements here. What exactly does Russian and American military aid from the 60's to 90's (since that's the period where the overwhleming part of weapons where delievered) have to do with ISIS exactly?