Michael Oliver

Jeppers7

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Like all penalties, it is one if it’s given. Whether it should be is where the debate comes in.

I don’t think VAR would have overturned the refs decision if he said No Penalty. “Soft”, in this case, means minimal contact, debatable impact of contact, borderline decision, also in a position where a goal or clear chance was nowhere close.
It was given....and VAR didn’t overturn it.
 

Jeppers7

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Yes because it wasn’t a clear and obvious mistake. I do think it was a penalty. A soft one, but a penalty.
I agree...it was a penalty, forget the clear and obvious line...it wasn’t a mistake to give it because it was a penalty. There’s no need for any further discussion on it.
 

stevoc

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And Solskjær has won it!
Yesterday witnessed a rare event indeed a United win in a game refereed by Michael Oliver. I guess with VAR watching over his decisions he has to be a bit less biased than he has been in the past. I guarantee you he doesn’t give that penalty pre-VAR.

Anyone know what Uniteds win ratio is with him as ref compared to most other refs? Are there sites with those sort of stats?
 

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Like all penalties, it is one if it’s given. Whether it should be is where the debate comes in.

I don’t think VAR would have overturned the refs decision if he said No Penalty. “Soft”, in this case, means minimal contact, debatable impact of contact, borderline decision, also in a position where a goal or clear chance was nowhere close.
Eh? Whether there was a goal or clear chance possible doesn’t come into it, anything that constitutes a free kick anywhere else on the pitch is a penalty when in the box.

He clearly ankle taps Pogba, probably unintentionally but that does not matter, he breaks Pogba’s stride and its a stone wall penalty.

If Oliver didn’t give it I’m confident VAR would have had him review it.

It didn’t even need a replay, I was totally confident watching it live, you could see the tangle of legs and it’s clumsy from the defending player.
 

Maagge

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I agree...it was a penalty, forget the clear and obvious line...it wasn’t a mistake to give it because it was a penalty. There’s no need for any further discussion on it.
@OrcaFat's point is that had Oliver not given it initially then it might not have been turned into one due to the clear and obvious thing.
 

OrcaFat

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I agree...it was a penalty, forget the clear and obvious line...it wasn’t a mistake to give it because it was a penalty. There’s no need for any further discussion on it.
No it wasn’t a mistake. I wasn’t aware anyone said it was a mistake. The point about “clear and obvious” is that even if it was a mistake (which I don’t think it was), VAR is not supposed to overrule the ref unless the mistake is “clear and obvious”. If there’s any debate at all, it’s not a clear mistake.

One argument is that VAR leads to more penalties being given on borderline incidents as the weaker refs think VAR will overrule if they called it wrong. Is Oliver one of the weaker refs? I’m not sure all refs would have given that pen yesterday and probably fewer would have done so before VAR.

I’m not suggesting it shouldn’t have been a pen. This is about borderline decisions, quality of refs and VAR.
 

Zen86

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As if there’s even debate over this. That was a penalty all day long. There are far, far, far more dubious penalties than that awarded on a regular basis.
 

roonster09

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It's a clear pen. Hilarious to see Villa players moaning about this on twitter.
 

Pagh Wraith

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Ref gave us very little in general play. Bruno was bundled over from behind among other ‘normal’ fouls. Not given for us but the same stuff given for Villa.

Which was the Maguire handball? Was that when Mings climbed all over him with no foul given?
Isn't that a pretty obvious handball?


 

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I remember the days when these incidents used to be called 'a coming together' and few would be outraged if it weren't a penalty.

The goalposts have continued to shift with regards to what is a penalty every decade and this year I think we've seen the largest shift. I pity defenders these days because it seems you can't have any physical contact, even accidental, as players are going down at every opportunity (not saying Pogba dived).

This is also why I absolutely hate it when people say defenders today are crap compared to the past, defenders from 10-15 years ago would be giving away penalties every match
 

Jeppers7

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No it wasn’t a mistake. I wasn’t aware anyone said it was a mistake. The point about “clear and obvious” is that even if it was a mistake (which I don’t think it was), VAR is not supposed to overrule the ref unless the mistake is “clear and obvious”. If there’s any debate at all, it’s not a clear mistake.

One argument is that VAR leads to more penalties being given on borderline incidents as the weaker refs think VAR will overrule if they called it wrong. Is Oliver one of the weaker refs? I’m not sure all refs would have given that pen yesterday and probably fewer would have done so before VAR.

I’m not suggesting it shouldn’t have been a pen. This is about borderline decisions, quality of refs and VAR.
Good job we have VAR then, otherwise some other refs would have missed a definite penalty.
 

Jeppers7

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Isn't that a pretty obvious handball?


No because both players head the ball and it deflects, which even if it deflects onto Maguires arm makes it not a penalty as the interpretation of the law is now. That being said there’s no proof there that it even hits Maguires arm.
 

Pagh Wraith

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Why do you think both players have their arms this high?
Why? That is a strange question to ask.

If you click and hold the video playback slider you can see that the Villa player has his right arm by his side whereas Maguire's is in the air and makes contact with the ball. That should not be a penalty if I had anything to say about it but I thought under current laws it was.
 

Bale Bale Bale

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Eh? Whether there was a goal or clear chance possible doesn’t come into it, anything that constitutes a free kick anywhere else on the pitch is a penalty when in the box.

He clearly ankle taps Pogba, probably unintentionally but that does not matter, he breaks Pogba’s stride and its a stone wall penalty.

If Oliver didn’t give it I’m confident VAR would have had him review it.

It didn’t even need a replay, I was totally confident watching it live, you could see the tangle of legs and it’s clumsy from the defending player.
He does not ankle tap Pogba, it's the other way around!

Watch the video and tell me whose leg is stationary and whose is moving? How can Luiz clip Pogba's ankle when his foot is already planted? Yes if Luiz isn't there then Pogba doesn't trip himself but he doesn't make any motion towards Pogba, it's just an unfortunate coming together. It's amazing how blinkered fans can be when it's their team involved, if that's Salah or Kane going down you would all be calling it for what it is. If Oliver doesn't give the penalty then there's 0% chance VAR is overturning it.

But whatever, it got given, Utd scored and won. We move on.
 

flappyjay

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Not every "stonewall" penalty has to be a crunching tackle, this penalty was the definition of stonewall.

You see some penalties where an attacker could, theoretically stay on their feet, that would be my definition of a soft penalty, but this one is where Pogba would have no way to keep going.

Anyone saying this is debatable or soft as you put it probably haven't ran past someone and had their trailing leg knocked behind their standing leg.

We could keep going on this but maybe agree to disagree would be a more amicable way of leaving this conversation.
This penalty and its discussion has me questioning whether as many millennials going backwards have played sports as much as I thought. Maybe people back in the day played outside but didn't play sports because if you have you know that the slightest touch to the foot that's not planted will send you down. I would understand if most people questioning the pen were 25 or younger as those generations don't play outside as much as the ones before.
 

sparx99

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Why? That is a strange question to ask.

If you click and hold the video playback slider you can see that the Villa player has his right arm by his side whereas Maguire's is in the air and makes contact with the ball. That should not be a penalty if I had anything to say about it but I thought under current laws it was.
they changed the interpretation a few weeks ago though. His arm would be considered in a natural position because he was using it for leverage and was on its way down.
 

sparx99

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This penalty and its discussion has me questioning whether as many millennials going backwards have played sports as much as I thought. Maybe people back in the day played outside but didn't play sports because if you have you know that the slightest touch to the foot that's not planted will send you down. I would understand if most people questioning the pen were 25 or younger as those generations don't play outside as much as the ones before.
Millennials are hitting 40 now. I’m not sure they should be lumped in with young people at this point.
 

Jeppers7

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He does not ankle tap Pogba, it's the other way around!

Watch the video and tell me whose leg is stationary and whose is moving? How can Luiz clip Pogba's ankle when his foot is already planted? Yes if Luiz isn't there then Pogba doesn't trip himself but he doesn't make any motion towards Pogba, it's just an unfortunate coming together. It's amazing how blinkered fans can be when it's their team involved, if that's Salah or Kane going down you would all be calling it for what it is. If Oliver doesn't give the penalty then there's 0% chance VAR is overturning it.

But whatever, it got given, Utd scored and won. We move on.
It’s a foul anywhere on the pitch. Luiz got turned, was too close and started to grapple...clumsy. He initiated contact and it led to the ankle tap. It is what it is. Clumsy defending. It was given...var looked at it repeatedly and didn’t overturn it....these are facts, not hearsay’s. If it’s not a penalty why wasn’t it overturned? Why didn’t anyone on Sky disagree with it being given? It’s amazing how bitter fans of other teams can be when it’s United involved.
 

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He does not ankle tap Pogba, it's the other way around!

Watch the video and tell me whose leg is stationary and whose is moving? How can Luiz clip Pogba's ankle when his foot is already planted? Yes if Luiz isn't there then Pogba doesn't trip himself but he doesn't make any motion towards Pogba, it's just an unfortunate coming together. It's amazing how blinkered fans can be when it's their team involved, if that's Salah or Kane going down you would all be calling it for what it is. If Oliver doesn't give the penalty then there's 0% chance VAR is overturning it.

But whatever, it got given, Utd scored and won. We move on.
These pens happen all the time. Its why attackers are told to go across defenders so any coming together is a pen.
The Villa player is jostling Pogba, its not as if hes in the corner, minding his own business
 

OnlyTwoDaSilvas

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Penalty was fairly soft, but they've been given for less. It balanced out as we should have had a much clearer one in the first half as well, and Mings probably should have been off. He was nowhere near the ball with that flying elbow. It was dangerous and reckless, no attempt to play the ball, and very much in character for him, so he hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt. VAR didn't even look, which was wild. If you're that late and forceful with a slide tackle, it's a foul 100% of the time. In a time when head injuries are being taken more seriously than ever, to ignore an elbow in the face makes no sense. Bizarre decision. I understand Oliver may have missed it, but that's what VAR is supposed to be for.

I thought Bailly could have had a red too, the foul he was booked for looked much worse in the replay. He goes through with both feet. I didn't think it looked too bad in real time. I don't know if VAR looked at it. It was an odd day for VAR in general.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Here I thought this was quite a pro-United performance by the ref and what he let them get away with in terms of fouling. Then you read this thread and start doubting your own eyes. Did VAR even look at the Maguire handball at the end? Thought the penalty for United was correct though.
What Maguire handball? Did they look at the blatant penalty on Pogba of have the rules changed now to allow players to elbow others off the ball?
 

Baneofthegame

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Isn't that a pretty obvious handball?


The ball doesn’t even touch his arm as far as I can tell, with your picture it looks like he’s basically juggling it on his arm.

Watching the full clip the ball doesn’t alter course or path after supposedly hitting his arm.

The reaction of the Villa players would also suggest to me it didn’t hit it at all.
 

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Penalty was fairly soft, but they've been given for less. It balanced out as we should have had a much clearer one in the first half as well, and Mings probably should have been off. He was nowhere near the ball with that flying elbow. It was dangerous and reckless, no attempt to play the ball, and very much in character for him, so he hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt. VAR didn't even look, which was wild. If you're that late and forceful with a slide tackle, it's a foul 100% of the time. In a time when head injuries are being taken more seriously than ever, to ignore an elbow in the face makes no sense. Bizarre decision. I understand Oliver may have missed it, but that's what VAR is supposed to be for.
I couldn't believe there was absolutely no discussion in commentary about that assault. Mings is such a dirty player.
 

bazza3727

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Interesting that all the debate is around a penalty decision that was (correctly) given, yet very little about a dangerous elbow from Mings (who has previous) which should have been a red card and a penalty. While Pogba was receiving treatment there was plenty of time for VAR to review it and tell Oliver that he had missed it. Obviously VAR is not being used correctly in this instance ie: for an obvious red card offence.
 

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Just looked at the Michael Oliver thread on Red Cafe and my mind is blown, I didn’t think it was possible to be that delusional.
Apparently apart from the penalty he gave us everything
Shows how used to incredibly biased officiating they are when not only can they not acknowledge how in their favour it was but to actually believe they are somehow being victimised. Unbelievable.
This is gold from the Aston Villa forum.
He must be kidding right?
Only United players got yellow card and no Villa player because it was in our favour. How deluded can he be
They did not VAR for red-card/Penalty Mings because Oliver wanted to give United and their fans a good game. He did that in our favour because playing against 10 could have ended in a boring one-sided 5:0 battering.
If Daniel James had even dived once like Traore etc, he would have been booked instantly but yet they did not even get one yellow for dive or foul.
I also had enjoyed a freekicks close to box but apparently it is in our favour if we don't get them
They still argue about Maguire handball when it did not even touch his armr and about Pogba Penalty when even Scouser Channel accepts it was a stonewall penalty but completely ignore all their luck.
We could have scored 2,3 or 4 goals from open play. With bad luck they could have gotten a draw but on another day we win this 4:1
 

RUCK4444

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He does not ankle tap Pogba, it's the other way around!

Watch the video and tell me whose leg is stationary and whose is moving? How can Luiz clip Pogba's ankle when his foot is already planted? Yes if Luiz isn't there then Pogba doesn't trip himself but he doesn't make any motion towards Pogba, it's just an unfortunate coming together. It's amazing how blinkered fans can be when it's their team involved, if that's Salah or Kane going down you would all be calling it for what it is. If Oliver doesn't give the penalty then there's 0% chance VAR is overturning it.

But whatever, it got given, Utd scored and won. We move on.
Mate this is basics. It’s not intentional but it doesn’t have to be.

I’m not a blinkered fan I’m always very impartial when talking about penalties and often have posted when we didn’t deserve a penalty decision.

Pogba is running with the ball, Luiz tracks the run and is behind Pogba (wrong side) and breaks his stride. It’s clumsy, it happens all the time and is ALWAYS a free kick.

It’s an obvious one tbh. No big complaints from Luiz at the time either.