Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep secures consecutive 8th place finishes

rotherham_red

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Yet another example of the media fawning over him. It is honestly downright bizarre, and the argument it's making is one any manager not named Pep in the top 6 or 7 teams in the league could make.

When Ole was persevering with Pereira and Lingard last season, did we have this level of understanding from the media and fans? Did we feck.
 

adexkola

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A sincere question for you mate, and I don't intend any offence by it because you seem to be very good natured and patient (much like I was with Ole during the difficult times last season when a lot of this board wanted him out for months) but did you have this same patience for Emery? Personally, I do think Emery had gotten more out of what was a worse squad than the one Arteta has and he was nowhere near backed as much as Arteta was (from memory).

I won't go into my reasons why I think Arteta has gotten a much easier ride than Ole had done as it's been done to death, but I do think the comparisons between the two ring hollow. Where Ole has made do with the squad he inherited (a squad which had finished one place below Arsenal just a few months before Emery was sacked and Arteta was brought in) and added albeit some expensive pieces, he has only really added four first team players in the more than two years he's been in charge. And yet, he still managed to get some really noticeable improvement out of the players that were already here (and in the process move out a metric feck tonne who didn't fit). With Arteta, he's brought in plenty of players (much moreso than Ole has done) but the improvement seems to be negligible at best.

And yet, we still have fawning pieces on him like Gunnerblogs' comparison piece on the Athletic between him and Emery yesterday, or we get sycophants like Miguel Delaney still saying he's a better manager than Ole. I just don't get it. If Ole is the joke, then what is Arteta? If the job Ole has done is so basic, why couldn't Arteta replicate it? Why isn't Odegaard for example, doing what Bruno did last year? Because apparently, Ole has had limited progress with Utd, but Arteta is at the start of a process? It's genuinely head scratching stuff to me...
I think you need to let go of the media's idiotic treatment of Ole and judge both managers fairly on their own merits. The media are biased idiots, we don't need to join them in the pit.

Ole: doing very good job given his resources. Shown consistency over 2 seasons in the league, may break his trophy draught this season . Requires more support from the board to see whether he's capable of pushing though the crack.

Arteta: mediocre so far. Hamstrung by poor squad quality, but will ultimately be judged by league and cup results. If sacked right now he couldn't complain but that sets Arsenal back to square 1. If not sacked he has this summer and the first half of next season to make his case otherwise it's curtains. Either way, when you have a string of managers performing poorly (going back to Wenger), maybe it's time to point fingers at the board?
 

rotherham_red

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I think you need to let go of the media's idiotic treatment of Ole and judge both managers fairly on their own merits. The media are biased idiots, we don't need to join them in the pit.

Ole: doing very good job given his resources. Shown consistency over 2 seasons in the league, may break his trophy draught this season . Requires more support from the board to see whether he's capable of pushing though the crack.

Arteta: mediocre so far. Hamstrung by poor squad quality, but will ultimately be judged by league and cup results. If sacked right now he couldn't complain but that sets Arsenal back to square 1. If not sacked he has this summer and the first half of next season to make his case otherwise it's curtains. Either way, when you have a string of managers performing poorly (going back to Wenger), maybe it's time to point fingers at the board?
But that's precisely the problem, I don't see the merits of Arteta. How many stand out performances can you list in his tenure thus far? Chelsea this season, maybe the Cup Final last year? I personally didn't think much of their performances v City and Liverpool last year, the results of which owed more to the profligacy of the opposition than anything else.

If that's what everyone is basing their opinions of Arteta on, then it honestly isn't very much. Maybe my view is harsh, but I'm only giving my opinion. And when I compare it to the grief that Emery (let alone Wenger) had gotten for doing much, much more than this, I can't help but think for potential reasons why.

I've got no issues with laying the majority of the blame on the board, and I know as close to first hand as you can get as a fan as to how much a poor board can hamstring even the very best of managers, but at the very least managers should be resourceful to a decent degree. I just don't see that with Arteta. After all, he is the one who brought in Mari and Soares on loan last January, didn't bother playing them for the whole of that second half of the season and then promptly decided to give them 4 year contracts. Who does that? :houllier:
 

FahadiHossein

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I don't know why everyone thinks that he is trying to emulate Pep.
I feel that he has some Moyes in him. He spent 6 years under Moyes and some of his ideas about crossing into the box seem to come from Moyes.
 

AshRK

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Yet another example of the media fawning over him. It is honestly downright bizarre, and the argument it's making is one any manager not named Pep in the top 6 or 7 teams in the league could make.

When Ole was persevering with Pereira and Lingard last season, did we have this level of understanding from the media and fans? Did we feck.
His football is nothing like pep. This is just lazy journalism. Arteta has been the most protected manager. His biggest achievement is to lower arsenal's standards and nothing else.
 

AltiUn

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Yet another example of the media fawning over him. It is honestly downright bizarre, and the argument it's making is one any manager not named Pep in the top 6 or 7 teams in the league could make.

When Ole was persevering with Pereira and Lingard last season, did we have this level of understanding from the media and fans? Did we feck.
Their squad really isn't anywhere near as bad as it's made out to be. It seems worse because he's not utilising it well.
 

rotherham_red

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Their squad really isn't anywhere near as bad as it's made out to be. It seems worse because he's not utilising it well.
Yep. A £250m attack, £50m spent on Partey. £35m on Tierney £27m each on Gabriel and Saliba.

They might not be on the level of Liverpool and City, but they sure as shit are better than Everton and West Ham. In terms of tiers, I'd say it's this:

Tier 1: City

Tier 2: Liverpool and Chelsea + maybe us

Tier 3: Us and probably Leicester

Tier 4: Leicester, Arsenal and Spurs

By rights, they should be in this Top 4 race.

As an aside, I personally feel we need to bring in the players to fill at least two of the four large holes we have in the squad, before I can confidently have us in that second tier with Liverpool and Chelsea
 

horsechoker

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Their squad really isn't anywhere near as bad as it's made out to be. It seems worse because he's not utilising it well.
On their day they're pretty good but their day seems to be every 5th or 6th match, the other games they're dog shite.

Arsenal shouldn't be 10th this close to the end of the season.
 

SinNombre

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Yep. A £250m attack, £50m spent on Partey. £35m on Tierney £27m each on Gabriel and Saliba.

They might not be on the level of Liverpool and City, but they sure as shit are better than Everton and West Ham. In terms of tiers, I'd say it's this:

Tier 1: City

Tier 2: Liverpool and Chelsea + maybe us

Tier 3: Us and probably Leicester

Tier 4: Leicester, Arsenal and Spurs

By rights, they should be in this Top 4 race.

As an aside, I personally feel we need to bring in the players to fill at least two of the four large holes we have in the squad, before I can confidently have us in that second tier with Liverpool and Chelsea
We are going to finish ahead of Chelsea second season running, beat both PSG and City this season and were the better team against Chelsea but no, we are a tier below Chelsea.

Classic caf negativity.
 

rotherham_red

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We are going to finish ahead of Chelsea second season running, beat both PSG and City this season and were the better team against Chelsea but no, we are a tier below Chelsea.

Classic caf negativity.
Take a look through my posts mate, I'm the last person to call negative :lol: I put Chelsea there because Chelsea's squad (thanks to their investment last year) is stronger than ours. Ole has done a fantastic job to likely finish ahead of them two seasons in a row, but now that they actually have a serious manager at the helm, it's crucial we finally back Ole with some first team signings.
 

GoonerBear

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Realistically, if Arsenal were to sack Arteta then what would the plan be? It’s taken United 8 years to get anywhere near coherent again, and still not challenging for a title. We’re only seeing benefits now because we’re backing a manager and giving him time because he’s not a toxic mess or got no idea how to manage players at a club like United.

Arsenal are a good 5 years away from the top 4. Sacking the manager and bringing in someone else isn’t going to speed that up, if anything it will prolong the climb.
I agree partly. I'm not sure that we are necessarily 5 years off of top 4 though, bearing in mind teams like Leicester & West Ham are right up there just now.

A sincere question for you mate, and I don't intend any offence by it because you seem to be very good natured and patient (much like I was with Ole during the difficult times last season when a lot of this board wanted him out for months) but did you have this same patience for Emery? Personally, I do think Emery had gotten more out of what was a worse squad than the one Arteta has and he was nowhere near backed as much as Arteta was (from memory).

I won't go into my reasons why I think Arteta has gotten a much easier ride than Ole had done as it's been done to death, but I do think the comparisons between the two ring hollow. Where Ole has made do with the squad he inherited (a squad which had finished one place below Arsenal just a few months before Emery was sacked and Arteta was brought in) and added albeit some expensive pieces, he has only really added four first team players in the more than two years he's been in charge. And yet, he still managed to get some really noticeable improvement out of the players that were already here (and in the process move out a metric feck tonne who didn't fit). With Arteta, he's brought in plenty of players (much moreso than Ole has done) but the improvement seems to be negligible at best.

And yet, we still have fawning pieces on him like Gunnerblogs' comparison piece on the Athletic between him and Emery yesterday, or we get sycophants like Miguel Delaney still saying he's a better manager than Ole. I just don't get it. If Ole is the joke, then what is Arteta? If the job Ole has done is so basic, why couldn't Arteta replicate it? Why isn't Odegaard for example, doing what Bruno did last year? Because apparently, Ole has had limited progress with Utd, but Arteta is at the start of a process? It's genuinely head scratching stuff to me...
Emery got a raw deal at Arsenal, he didn't get the signings he wanted, & he wasn't really treated with respect by the media & the players by the end, much of it personal.

However, he had totally lost the dressing room by the end, being the butt of jokes, & as much as I have sympathy for him, once that happens then there's no real coming back from it.

Some of the press might come from leaks that come out from around the club. Emery was seen as intense, pleasant enough but not really engaging, & was apparently distant with different departments & members of staff within the football club. Arteta is apparently much more engaging, & more involved with all departments & staff. When reporters report on a team / manager, leaks will set some of the narrative.

Then, on the pitch, Emery's tactics ended up all over the place. Some of the results have been poor under Arteta, but we still have some element of control in most games, but we've been done by stupid individual mistakes. We had lost all control under Emery, we were conceding 30 shots a game to the likes of Watford, never mind the likes of City. It went downhill pretty fast after Baku to be fair.
 

AltiUn

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Yep. A £250m attack, £50m spent on Partey. £35m on Tierney £27m each on Gabriel and Saliba.

They might not be on the level of Liverpool and City, but they sure as shit are better than Everton and West Ham. In terms of tiers, I'd say it's this:

Tier 1: City

Tier 2: Liverpool and Chelsea + maybe us

Tier 3: Us and probably Leicester

Tier 4: Leicester, Arsenal and Spurs

By rights, they should be in this Top 4 race.

As an aside, I personally feel we need to bring in the players to fill at least two of the four large holes we have in the squad, before I can confidently have us in that second tier with Liverpool and Chelsea
I’m not entirely convinced Chelsea are all that and haven’t been for 2 seasons. In my opinion they’re still very much living on the bounce you get from a new manager. Maybe they’ll be great next season but I doubt it, Tuchel had a far better team at PSG and we were the better team both times we played them this season. I’m not convinced.
 

jrsenior

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In terms of tiers, I'd say it's this:

Tier 1: City

Tier 2: Liverpool and Chelsea + maybe us

Tier 3: Us and probably Leicester

Tier 4: Leicester, Arsenal and Spurs

By rights, they should be in this Top 4 race.
Liverpool's squad is paper thin mate. Us and Chelsea tier two, Liverpool tier three above Arsenal and Leicester I guess.
 

adexkola

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But that's precisely the problem, I don't see the merits of Arteta. How many stand out performances can you list in his tenure thus far? Chelsea this season, maybe the Cup Final last year? I personally didn't think much of their performances v City and Liverpool last year, the results of which owed more to the profligacy of the opposition than anything else.

If that's what everyone is basing their opinions of Arteta on, then it honestly isn't very much. Maybe my view is harsh, but I'm only giving my opinion. And when I compare it to the grief that Emery (let alone Wenger) had gotten for doing much, much more than this, I can't help but think for potential reasons why.

I've got no issues with laying the majority of the blame on the board, and I know as close to first hand as you can get as a fan as to how much a poor board can hamstring even the very best of managers, but at the very least managers should be resourceful to a decent degree. I just don't see that with Arteta. After all, he is the one who brought in Mari and Soares on loan last January, didn't bother playing them for the whole of that second half of the season and then promptly decided to give them 4 year contracts. Who does that? :houllier:
But that's what I said, if he's sacked right now he couldn't have any complaints, unless there is something going on behind the scenes we don't know about. Ultimately he'll have to show his quality on the pitch. The FA Cup bought him this season I think.

I agree Wenger was dealt a poor hand from the (idiot) fans. I'm not sure what Emery brought to the table and I rate him as a manager for his accomplishments elsewhere.
 

GoonerBear

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Yep. A £250m attack, £50m spent on Partey. £35m on Tierney £27m each on Gabriel and Saliba.

They might not be on the level of Liverpool and City, but they sure as shit are better than Everton and West Ham. In terms of tiers, I'd say it's this:

Tier 1: City

Tier 2: Liverpool and Chelsea + maybe us

Tier 3: Us and probably Leicester

Tier 4: Leicester, Arsenal and Spurs

By rights, they should be in this Top 4 race.

As an aside, I personally feel we need to bring in the players to fill at least two of the four large holes we have in the squad, before I can confidently have us in that second tier with Liverpool and Chelsea
Tierney was £25M, but it's a fair point.

Thing is, I think we all agreed that Arsenal spent their money poorly at the end of Wenger & through Emery's reign. That's something everyone acknowledges so it's not really something that should be used to bash Arteta in my opinion.
 

AltiUn

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Tierney was £25M, but it's a fair point.

Thing is, I think we all agreed that Arsenal spent their money poorly at the end of Wenger & through Emery's reign. That's something everyone acknowledges so it's not really something that should be used to bash Arteta in my opinion.
That's very true. While the new signings may still have something to prove quality-wise, you can't fault the profile of the players gone for. They're all in positions you needed, were a good age and weren't ridiculously priced. Aside from Maguire that's sort of how we've been trying to do things under Solskjaer and it seems to be working so far.
 

SinNombre

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Take a look through my posts mate, I'm the last person to call negative :lol: I put Chelsea there because Chelsea's squad (thanks to their investment last year) is stronger than ours. Ole has done a fantastic job to likely finish ahead of them two seasons in a row, but now that they actually have a serious manager at the helm, it's crucial we finally back Ole with some first team signings.
Fair enough but Chelsea have glaring gaps in their squad including at #9 which is why they underperform on goals scored vs xG

All 3 of Chelsea, United and Liverpool all have issues and are about the same level.

Liverpool also have an older and smaller squad and will likely fall off from this tier without very good recruiting.
 

WeePat

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Take it from a Utd fan who witnessed us win three trophies in two successive seasons, they are just a mirage if the underlying form isn't showing signs of improvement. And in Arteta's case, I'm just not seeing it.
Yeah I'm definitely not letting Arteta's cup runs mask the inept league form. I completely agree with you that I'd much rather see progress in the league than token cup competitions wins [unless it's the CL].
 

Cloud7

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Yet another example of the media fawning over him. It is honestly downright bizarre, and the argument it's making is one any manager not named Pep in the top 6 or 7 teams in the league could make.

When Ole was persevering with Pereira and Lingard last season, did we have this level of understanding from the media and fans? Did we feck.
This reminds me of when Moyes was at United. Excuse after excuse by the media. Lowering of expectations after lowering of expectations, all to protect a manager that's clearly not doing a good job.
 

Zaphod2319

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Fair enough but Chelsea have glaring gaps in their squad including at #9 which is why they underperform on goals scored vs xG

All 3 of Chelsea, United and Liverpool all have issues and are about the same level.

Liverpool also have an older and smaller squad and will likely fall off from this tier without very good recruiting.
The 9 is definitely unsettled. I would say our squad depth is getting pretty strong. Tuchel has been doing great at rotating players and I think he will continue, which keeps a big squad happy. I also think Roman is going to be aggressive in the transfer market upcoming. FFP is up in the air and will probably be ill defined, if at all. He seems very interested in his shiny toy again.

Edit to add: I agree that we are at the same level and it comes down to execution.
 

SAFMUTD

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Yet another example of the media fawning over him. It is honestly downright bizarre, and the argument it's making is one any manager not named Pep in the top 6 or 7 teams in the league could make.

When Ole was persevering with Pereira and Lingard last season, did we have this level of understanding from the media and fans? Did we feck.
They dont have the player nor the manager. What a ridiculous note, is getting seriously biased towards Arteta at the moment.
 

horsechoker

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They dont have the player nor the manager. What a ridiculous note, is getting seriously biased towards Arteta at the moment.
I reckon the media want him to stay so Arsenal can stay shit. Probably full of spurs and Chelsea fans down in that London.
 

cyberman

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Yet another example of the media fawning over him. It is honestly downright bizarre, and the argument it's making is one any manager not named Pep in the top 6 or 7 teams in the league could make.

When Ole was persevering with Pereira and Lingard last season, did we have this level of understanding from the media and fans? Did we feck.
Artetas style is negative and dull as feck. Its the polar opposite of Pep ball
 

horsechoker

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Me: "Mum can we have Pep Guardiola?"
Mum: "we have Pep Guardiola at home"
Pep Guardiola at home:
 

rotherham_red

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What’s up bro :lol:

Im presenting my first paper on Wednesday at our colloquium - then I’m back baby! :lol: made lots of progress when I diverted all that bbc time to my studies
:lol: good man! Catch you soon insha'Allah
 

Tony247

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Yet another example of the media fawning over him. It is honestly downright bizarre, and the argument it's making is one any manager not named Pep in the top 6 or 7 teams in the league could make.

When Ole was persevering with Pereira and Lingard last season, did we have this level of understanding from the media and fans? Did we feck.
Ole has turned united into much direct and fluent side. We are pleasant to watch, our weakness against high press has been eliminated. No team dare to high preas us now. Team stamina is improved a lot. Gone are days when players used to give up running at 70 min. AWB's link up play with the midfield to bring the ball up has significantly improved. Shaw is showing form of his life under Ole. Maguire's playing from the back is so effective, he is currently the best CB in PL. Gone are days when heading was Lindelof's weakness. We are second in the league.

And yet, not a single article praising Ole.
 

Dancfc

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I can see that argument, and to be honest, I'd probably struggle to put up a compelling defence. There's a lot that want him out already. I'm probably more patient than most, & willing to give him another window & the chance to have a proper pre season that he's not had yet.

It looks like there will be no European football next season. It might be just what the team needs, a chance to have a smaller tighter squad with more time in the training pitch.
I think the narrative that teams struggling are better off out of Europe for a year to regroup is a bit overrated to be honest.

It's only really worked once and that was with us under Conte and that was because we were already a title challenging standard team who had the ultimate outlier season.

No other big team outside of Europe have done any better than 4th in the same season IIRC although that said I'm guessing you'll take that next May now if offered.
 

nainaisson

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When Ole was persevering with Pereira and Lingard last season, did we have this level of understanding from the media and fans? Did we feck.
Our regular starter at No.10 last season is now a benchwarmer at Lazio. It boggles the mind that a club with United's resources could have such a poor squad for so long. Ole deserves massive credit for sorting it out.
 

Mr.Ridiculous__

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Yep. A £250m attack, £50m spent on Partey. £35m on Tierney £27m each on Gabriel and Saliba.

They might not be on the level of Liverpool and City, but they sure as shit are better than Everton and West Ham. In terms of tiers, I'd say it's this:

Tier 1: City

Tier 2: Liverpool and Chelsea + maybe us

Tier 3: Us and probably Leicester

Tier 4: Leicester, Arsenal and Spurs

By rights, they should be in this Top 4 race.

As an aside, I personally feel we need to bring in the players to fill at least two of the four large holes we have in the squad, before I can confidently have us in that second tier with Liverpool and Chelsea
We are firmly tier 2.
 

GoonerBear

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I think the narrative that teams struggling are better off out of Europe for a year to regroup is a bit overrated to be honest.

It's only really worked once and that was with us under Conte and that was because we were already a title challenging standard team who had the ultimate outlier season.

No other big team outside of Europe have done any better than 4th in the same season IIRC although that said I'm guessing you'll take that next May now if offered.
Oh aye Dan, first target should be just to try & sort the home form & find some consistency next season. Need to be looking at the 70+ points mark to start with to be in & around top 4. You would like to think the home form should be easier to sort, I can't understand how it's got so poor. Is it indicative of the strange season with the high percentage of away wins across the league, or is it something deeper than that?
 

Hansi Fick

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His football is nothing like pep. This is just lazy journalism. Arteta has been the most protected manager. His biggest achievement is to lower arsenal's standards and nothing else.
Their squad really isn't anywhere near as bad as it's made out to be. It seems worse because he's not utilising it well.
Fully agree.
Who knows, maybe Arteta indeed wants his team to play like a Pep team, we can't read his mind. But if he does we can say for certain that he's thoroughly incapable of instructing them how to do it.

But yeah, it's so lazy, the year as Pep's assistant will forever write their stories for them without any connection to reality.
 

Poborsky's hair

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This reminds me of when Moyes was at United. Excuse after excuse by the media. Lowering of expectations after lowering of expectations, all to protect a manager that's clearly not doing a good job.
Ole at Cardiff:wenger:

You certainly need palyers to fit your brandof football but he hardly been there for too little not to draw conclusions about his inability to lead a top football club - not that Arsenal have been at the top past 8 years but certainly it's one of their worst seasons and he's part of that because he's simply not a good manager. I actually thought for a while he could be a good one but being an understudy of pep means not so much it seems.. Perhaps he should start somewhere in Spain and get valuable experience before moving to axlub like Arsenal if he ever showed any promising signs to get that move.
 

justsomebloke

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Well, sometimes you can do a lot of right things without getting better results for a good while, and then when it comes, it comes. Hard to say of course if that will be the case with Artetas Arsenal, but when I look at their lineup now, it sure looks a lot better than it did a year or two ago and there is more of a sense that there's a foundation of sorts in place. Quite a lot of deadwood has been gotten rid of, and the replacements give cause for optimism. Tierney and Holding are legitimate starters I think, Gabriel has shown enough to warrant optimism and Cedric and Chambers look like good squad players. They still need to replace Bellerin and Luis though. Partey looks to me every bit as good as his billing, I'd have loved to have him as our DM anchor. But clearout remaining to do in midfield as well; Elneny, Xhaka, Torreira and Ceballos (who will surely not return for another loan stint). Signing Willian was an inexplicable and obvious mistake, and question marks are starting to build over Aubameyang I think. But otherwise, they have a good core in place with Smith-Rowe and Saka and (more debatable) Lacazette and Pepe. As well as youngsters who'd probably grow into bigger roles if given the chance, and who even if they do not ultimately turn out to merit a regular starting role on a top team are good enough to tide them over while better players get recruited: Willock, Nelson, Nketiah, Martinelli. If they can get Ødegaard, that would be a great boost.

The common denominator here is that almost all of the good news are youngsters or players recruited by Arteta, while almost all of the bad news are holdovers from the previous regimes. Surely that's a good sign for Arteta.

That being said, better results have to come sooner or later. As it stands now, they'll regress on last season in terms of points and league position.
 

justsomebloke

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Fully agree.
Who knows, maybe Arteta indeed wants his team to play like a Pep team, we can't read his mind. But if he does we can say for certain that he's thoroughly incapable of instructing them how to do it.

But yeah, it's so lazy, the year as Pep's assistant will forever write their stories for them without any connection to reality.
I suspect those who point to lazy journalism have a point here. At least, when I look at Arsenal play, they don't look to me like a team trying to play like Manchester City.