Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

amolbhatia50k

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This doesn't surprise me. There are managers who seem to get by and make enough incremental improvements to keep enough of the fan base on their side, but don't actually have the proper quality needed to achieve excellence. Arteta has always struck me as one of those. He's spent a lot at Arsenal yet is somehow shielded heavily by their lowered expectations to the point where his own improvement from rubbish to okay is seen as progress.

He also seems to have a real chip on his shoulder, and also manufactured hype as a proper tactician (due to the Pep connect) which can annoy people.

For me I saw nothing in his first two years that showed him to be a high quality manager. Football was poor and unattractive as were the results. They've been a little better due to the spending but for me, this is not a manager in line with Arsenal's stature of a club.

Finally hopefully they stop bleating on about CL after 6 years. He has managed them for 3 now.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Just to highlight what I'm saying, would you guys pick Arteta over Eddie Howe?

Arsenal fans shouldn't be asking has he improved us from 8th (his own achievement). They should be asking whether they have one of the best 6 managers in the PL.
 

Red the Bear

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Just to highlight what I'm saying, would you guys pick Arteta over Eddie Howe?

Arsenal fans shouldn't be asking has he improved us from 8th (his own achievement). They should be asking whether they have one of the best 6 managers in the PL.
They probably should have just stuck with emery for a little while more.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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Just to highlight what I'm saying, would you guys pick Arteta over Eddie Howe?

Arsenal fans shouldn't be asking has he improved us from 8th (his own achievement). They should be asking whether they have one of the best 6 managers in the PL.
The media is pushing Viera, it’s madness. And probably a fair chunk of Arsenal fans agree, I’ve seen those sentiments online from them this season. Meanwhile, someone like Potter is there just needing that big break who could give them a real identity, but Lego Pep is what they persist with.
 

bringbackbebe

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This doesn't surprise me. There are managers who seem to get by and make enough incremental improvements to keep enough of the fan base on their side, but don't actually have the proper quality needed to achieve excellence. Arteta has always struck me as one of those. He's spent a lot at Arsenal yet is somehow shielded heavily by their lowered expectations to the point where his own improvement from rubbish to okay is seen as progress.

He also seems to have a real chip on his shoulder, and also manufactured hype as a proper tactician (due to the Pep connect) which can annoy people.

For me I saw nothing in his first two years that showed him to be a high quality manager. Football was poor and unattractive as were the results. They've been a little better due to the spending but for me, this is not a manager in line with Arsenal's stature of a club.

Finally hopefully they stop bleating on about CL after 6 years. He has managed them for 3 now.
It'll take some time for results to start paying off, just like with any transition. IMHO, they are already in the right track and are far ahead of us in the scale of stability, plus they've shown signs they can work as a group and play pretty attractive football, even without dominating characters. The issue was expectations management for the current year, where everyone expected them to get into the champions league. Truth is, 5th is a major achievement for them.
 

Red the Bear

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Did he always speak like this or is he consciously trying to imitate pep's mannerisms?
 
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It'll take some time for results to start paying off, just like with any transition. IMHO, they are already in the right track and are far ahead of us in the scale of stability, plus they've shown signs they can work as a group and play pretty attractive football, even without dominating characters. The issue was expectations management for the current year, where everyone expected them to get into the champions league. Truth is, 5th is a major achievement for them.
No-one expected them to get into the CL though. It was an opportunity that arose because United fell off a cliff and Tottenham were utter dogshit until Conte arrived. It was an opportunity that they have utterly fecked up and I’d be amazed if they get another chance at the CL whilst Conte is at Spurs and due to United’s financial power.

When 6th place looks like to finish below 60 points, don’t try convincing anyone that 5th is any kind of achievement, let alone a “major achievement”.

Arteta took over a side that took 70 points in Emery’s only season, in 3 years he’s spent a shit tonne of cash and will at best end the season on 69 points. Right track my arse.

United also showed under Ole that they could work as a group and play pretty attractive football, but as with Arteta, every man and his dog can see it meant nothing, and was going absolutely nowhere, just like Arsenal under Arteta.
 
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unplayable

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Never forget that he promised Willian they would win the CL together. :lol:
 

Red the Bear

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Not sure about the speaking but his gesturing on the touchline seems very fake - almost as if he’s trying to imitate what the top managers like Pep or Klopp or Conte do.
Yeah it just seems off, almost creepy at times, just so stilted.
 

GoonerBear

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Where have all of the ‘trust the process’ people gone?
It's not rocket science really. If a manager gets the target by the board, improves league position & improves points position, then they are generally safe.

If they fall below that, if they regress, then his position is under real threat. Like nearly all managers out there

He might be our Ole, as everyone keeps saying in fact, he probably will be our Ole. Because 95% off the managers end up regressing at some point & being sacked. The Klopp, Peps & Fergie are very few & far between. Even got Wenger in the end.
 

amolbhatia50k

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It'll take some time for results to start paying off, just like with any transition.
More likely it'll take time for Arsenal fans to realise that he isn't that good a manager.


It'll take some time for results to start paying off, just like with any transition. IMHO, they are already in the right track and are far ahead of us in the scale of stability, plus they've shown signs they can work as a group and play pretty attractive football,
They don't play attractive football. Their football under Arteta has generally been mechanical and dull. This season there have been spells of football that is better to watch, but any manager (even our managers who didn't work out) has those phases when things fall in place. It's the bare minimum to get some collective spirit and decent football here and there.

Truth is, 5th is a major achievement for them.
It's not. You could say that they've done alright and taken a minor step forward to get 5th but it is not a "major achievement" in any shape or form. It wasn't when Leicester blew 4th spot and it isn't now that Arsenal have.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Why is everyone confident that spurs won't spur the final game ?
Probably because it's Norwich, they have Conte and they have momentum.

I'd say it's possible but they are overwhelming favourites now.
 
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It's not rocket science really. If a manager gets the target by the board, improves league position & improves points position, then they are generally safe.
feck me we made that mistake.
When it’s obvious a manager aint up to it, stop expecting miracles and bring in a Conte.

This idea that tiny improvements on their own shit seasons is enough to keep them in work is just a daft waste of everyone’s time. Like Ole, Arteta still can’t even match the points total his predecessor managed the season before he took over, that should send off massive alarm bells.
 

GoonerBear

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feck me we made that mistake.
When it’s obvious a manager aint up to it, stop expecting miracles and bring in a Conte.

This idea that tiny improvements on their own shit seasons is enough to keep them in work is just a daft waste of everyone’s time. Like Ole, Arteta still can’t even match the points total his predecessor managed the season before he took over, that should send off massive alarm bells.
The same could happen to Conte next season though. Do you think you'll finish top 4 next season? Do you think Chelsea will?
 

NoPace

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I think he's basically done a good job because he's gotten the core players at the club in good situations where they're doing well, but if I was Edu/Arsenal I'd be very tempted to be ruthless and fire him and hire Potter before someone else does, because I don't think they control games well enough, and their goal difference shows they're lucky to even still have a shot at 4th.

They're in a decent situation though, considering they can fairly easily upgrade at fullback (Soares and Tavares could easily be on a team getting relegated, though Tavares might have potential to become decent) at CM (a full season of Elneny and Sambi Lokonga, who again might be decent but isn't yet) and Saliba apparently is already quite a CB.

Honestly, considering Partey has only started 23 times and the other 53 CM games (they play 4-2-3-1 obviously) are Xhaka, Sambi Lokonga and Elneny and you can't really expect Arteta to have done any better, but Arsenal is a big big job, so if he's like the 10th best manager in the league, it's still too big a job for him at the moment.
 

NoPace

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Tomiyasu -> Soares
Tierney -> Tavares
Partey -> El Neny

The drop off in quality is too great. A fair criticism of Arteta is that it was his choice to have such a small squad in the second half of the season. We shifted out:

Chambers
Mari
Kolasinac
Maitland-Niles
Aubameyang


Auba is a special case, but all of the others are squad and bench players in their mid 20s. They could have played off the bench or against lower level teams and given our best players a breather. We’ve rinsed the same players in a squad that we intentionally made smaller.
Only Auba would really have helped. Play any of those other players even a bit and you're likely dropping points.
 

AshRK

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Why is everyone confident that spurs won't spur the final game ?
Still doesn't change the fact that Arteta is not that good of a manager. Ole gets mocked but even he got top 4 by beating Leicester away in a virtual KO for 4th spot. Arsenal had a chance last game against Spurs to do the same and they have failed.
 

B20

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The same could happen to Conte next season though. Do you think you'll finish top 4 next season? Do you think Chelsea will?
Sure anything can happen. That's a bit of a weak argument for keeping a manager though.

Arteta reminds me of Houllier, except Houllier won more and did better in the league (and champions league). But similar in the sense that in hindsight it was clear that he wasn't going to take us where we wanted and we persevered too long with him.

A year from now you'll be no better off than you are now and perhaps it'll be clear to your lot too with Arteta. Worst that could happen for you really is sneaking top four next season and he'll stay even longer.

A manager good enough for where you want to be doesn't make the kind of snail's pace progress you have settled for under Arteta.

You may have a season here and there of decent when the others are bad. But you'll continue to be leap frogged the moment they get their act together, just as is happening this season with spurs.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I think he's basically done a good job because he's gotten the core players at the club in good situations where they're doing well, but if I was Edu/Arsenal I'd be very tempted to be ruthless and fire him and hire Potter before someone else does, because I don't think they control games well enough, and their goal difference shows they're lucky to even still have a shot at 4th.

They're in a decent situation though, considering they can fairly easily upgrade at fullback (Soares and Tavares could easily be on a team getting relegated, though Tavares might have potential to become decent) at CM (a full season of Elneny and Sambi Lokonga, who again might be decent but isn't yet) and Saliba apparently is already quite a CB.

Honestly, considering Partey has only started 23 times and the other 53 CM games (they play 4-2-3-1 obviously) are Xhaka, Sambi Lokonga and Elneny and you can't really expect Arteta to have done any better, but Arsenal is a big big job, so if he's like the 10th best manager in the league, it's still too big a job for him at the moment.
Remind me of the extraordinary strength in depth in central midfield at the teams around them in the league?

Swap those names with the CMs at Manchester United and I have a think about how this season might have worked out for both clubs.
 

mitchmouse

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I predicted a couple of weeks ago (after they beat us) that Arsenal wouldn't make the CL spots. I was almost certain Newcastle would beat them and told a Spurs fan friend he didn't need to worry
 

Pogue Mahone

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I predicted a couple of weeks ago (after they beat us) that Arsenal wouldn't make the CL spots. I was almost certain Newcastle would beat them and told a Spurs fan friend he didn't need to worry
They rode their luck to a ludicrous extent against both Chelsea and United. There was no way that was sustainable. Yet the media spun those bang average performances as some sort of managerial master-class from Arteta. It was bizarre.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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It'll take some time for results to start paying off, just like with any transition. IMHO, they are already in the right track and are far ahead of us in the scale of stability
The problem is they are quite stable in a mediocre position.
They have scored 56, 55, and 56 goals in the past 3 seasons. Basically the same number. They have conceded 48, 39, and 47. A little more variety there, but a clear reversal between last season and this one. Their GD has hovered between +8 and +16 which is not great.
I know things can take time but how many years does Arteta need for his team to start scoring goals? Under Emery they scored 73. At this point we can just say, "this is how his teams play." He can't get them to score.

If you compare this to Klopp, it's night and day. GD under Klopp went from +13 in his first season to +36 to +46. It was +4 the season before he joined. A complete and total transformation.
 

GoonerBear

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Sure anything can happen. That's a bit of a weak argument for keeping a manager though.

Arteta reminds me of Houllier, except Houllier won more and did better in the league (and champions league). But similar in the sense that in hindsight it was clear that he wasn't going to take us where we wanted and we persevered too long with him.

A year from now you'll be no better off than you are now and perhaps it'll be clear to your lot too with Arteta. Worst that could happen for you really is sneaking top four next season and he'll stay even longer.

A manager good enough for where you want to be doesn't make the kind of snail's pace progress you have settled for under Arteta.

You may have a season here and there of decent when the others are bad. But you'll continue to be leap frogged the moment they get their act together, just as is happening this season with spurs.
You could be right about Houllier. But then you went through Rafa, went through Hodgson, Dalglish, went through Rodgers to get to really where you wanted to be in Klopp. So yeah, you got to where you wanted to be, sustained success, at the top end of the game, but it's been a journey after Houllier to get to, with some awful lows in between.

Edit: Just realised you might be counting Rafa as a big success?
 

GoonerBear

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I really don’t understand why he was hated
He lost the dressing room. At that time the old regime thought it be easier to change the manager than the team. Anyway, he's a great cup manager. Not so much in the league.
 

B20

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You could be right about Houllier. But then you went through Rafa, went through Hodgson, Dalglish, went through Rodgers to get to really where you wanted to be in Klopp. So yeah, you got to where you wanted to be, sustained success, at the top end of the game, but it's been a journey after Houllier to get to, with some awful lows in between.

Edit: Just realised you might be counting Rafa as a big success?
Not a *big* success but at least in a competitive echelon.

Arteta will never be that.