I think Benitez time is romanticised a lot by his European record. He's was a great tactician in Europe, domestically I'm not sure.Not a *big* success but at least in a competitive echelon.
Arteta will never be that.
Ralf Rangnick?Why don't Arsenal go for one of those fancy German managers we see at Dortmund and Leipzig
Rangnick is a bit old, the younger ones those clubs line up, they'll suit the profile of the club at least they'll get Arsenal playing fancy football.Ralf Rangnick?
It's utterly ridiculous given almost everyone in that squad was either signed by him or given a new deal on his watch.
You're not wrong, but then again it's Spurs innit.I'd say it is much more likely that Arsenal lose to Everton than Spurs drop points against Norwich.
His best players are from their own reserves (Martinelli, Smith Rowe, Saka). His purchase of Tomiyasu and Ramsdale I feel was strong. Partey was vital in their resurgence this season too. Cannot say the same for Lokanga and Taveres. But he did not buy Pepe, he was lumbered with Aubameyang and Lacazette.It's utterly ridiculous given almost everyone in that squad was either signed by him or given a new deal on his watch.
Tangible but minimal. Scored fewer goals. Let in more goals. And the point that keeps getting glossed over is that this “tangible improvement” is over an incredibly low bar. An incredibly low bar set by non other than Arteta himself!His best players are from their own reserves (Martinelli, Smith Rowe, Saka). His purchase of Tomiyasu and Ramsdale I feel was strong. Partey was vital in their resurgence this season too. Cannot say the same for Lokanga and Taveres. But he did not buy Pepe, he was lumbered with Aubameyang and Lacazette.
It is more than evident that the required surgery at Arsenal will take multiple windows and seasons. The improvement from 8th to 5th isn't setting the world on fire but it is a tangible one, especially when you consider his squad quality is behind City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester United.
It is no surprise to me that the team pipping top 4 was the team that was given a couple January signings to slot straight into the first XI. It gave the team a boost and they were solid purchases. Arsenal should have recruited in January in my opinion.
Sure but he had to cut his big goal scorer loose. Aubameyang's attitude needed addressing and I think Arteta did the right thing there.. of course, at the cost of losing one of his main outlets for goal. I point to being 3 positions higher up the table as being the barometer of improvement moreso than the secondary stats of goals scored vs conceded. Not to say the latters aren't meaningful but the league position is most important.Tangible but minimal. Scored fewer goals. Let in more goals. And the point that keeps getting glossed over is that this “tangible improvement” is over an incredibly low bar. An incredibly low bar set by non other than Arteta himself!
Won that game 2-0 didn't we? Remember Lingard scoring literally the last goal of the season to break his bad record of not scoring or assisting all season. Some lad lost a bet because of it.He was 90 mins from finishing 5th but because he snuck a 1-1 draw to Leicester (who had a crazy amount of injuries) on the final day of the season, he finish 3rd and was lauded!
First of all, it’s the similarities with Ole that endorse the idea he’s not up to the job. Second, Arteta didn’t win yesterday. His team never looked like winning. And, if anything, Arsenal have picked up a bunch of points recently that their performances didn’t deserve. Shocking performance from VAR/referees against United gave them three points they really didn’t deserve and they rode their luck massively against Chelsea. 32% possession and scored a goal with every single shot on target.Sure but he had to cut his big goal scorer loose. Aubameyang's attitude needed addressing and I think Arteta did the right thing there.. of course, at the cost of losing one of his main outlets for goal. I point to being 3 positions higher up the table as being the barometer of improvement moreso than the secondary stats of goals scored vs conceded. Not to say the latters aren't meaningful but the league position is most important.
Also, if he had won yesterday and pipped top 4, everyone would praise him for a frankly outstanding achievement. It shouldn't have to be that thin a line for evaluating managers - the landscape was the same for Ole too. He was 90 mins from finishing 5th but because he snuck a 1-1 draw to Leicester (who had a crazy amount of injuries) on the final day of the season, he finish 3rd and was lauded!
But when you factor in the cultural reset, it’s actually like 0 in 130.Has lost 38 in 130;
Ole lost 40 in 168.
That's pretty grimm stuff.
We beat Leicestershire FC comfortably on the last day FYISure but he had to cut his big goal scorer loose. Aubameyang's attitude needed addressing and I think Arteta did the right thing there.. of course, at the cost of losing one of his main outlets for goal. I point to being 3 positions higher up the table as being the barometer of improvement moreso than the secondary stats of goals scored vs conceded. Not to say the latters aren't meaningful but the league position is most important.
Also, if he had won yesterday and pipped top 4, everyone would praise him for a frankly outstanding achievement. It shouldn't have to be that thin a line for evaluating managers - the landscape was the same for Ole too. He was 90 mins from finishing 5th but because he snuck a 1-1 draw to Leicester (who had a crazy amount of injuries) on the final day of the season, he finish 3rd and was lauded!
He waves his arms around a lot though so I guess that reduces the number of losses. Somehow.Has lost 38 in 130;
Ole lost 40 in 168.
That's pretty grimm stuff.
Relative to where we were at the time:I think Benitez time is romanticised a lot by his European record. He's was a great tactician in Europe, domestically I'm not sure.
He won 1 FA Cup in 6 years, didn't make it to the quarter final the other 5.
Made 1 final in the League Cup, didn't make it past the quarter final in the other 5 years.
Finished 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd & 7th. Decent, but great?
Sorry, had my score mixed up thereWe beat Leicestershire FC comfortably on the last day FYI
I am not saying Arsenal have played particularly well of late, nor that they should have beaten Newcastle. I do think squeezing results when you're not playing well is part of the game and even ETH has had to do this for Ajax from April to May for example.First of all, it’s the similarities with Ole that endorse the idea he’s not up to the job. Second, Arteta didn’t win yesterday. His team never looked like winning. And, if anything, Arsenal have picked up a bunch of points recently that their performances didn’t deserve. Shocking performance from VAR/referees against United gave them three points they really didn’t deserve and they rode their luck massively against Chelsea. 32% possession and scored a goal with every single shot on target.
They didn’t fail bravely in an extremely close game yesterday. They had their arses handed to them. The culmination of a long period of bang average performances. I fully expect them to struggle badly against Everton too. It’s actually surprising their top four dream stayed alive until now, after a run-in where they’ve played so consistently badly. If United had even managed par results in our last ten fixtures or so we’d have left them behind ages ago.
I’ve no idea how any squad can be given a definitive label of 3rd, 4th or 5th best. Otherwise what’s the point of managers?!?I am not saying Arsenal have played particularly well of late, nor that they should have beaten Newcastle. I do think squeezing results when you're not playing well is part of the game and even ETH has had to do this for Ajax from April to May for example.
I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?
Agreed totally. Thank you for that.Emery managed 70 points and 5th place in his first season. Doesn't get backed in the summer , things go wrong and he gets the sack. Arteta is allowed to finish 8th back to back , gets heavily backed in the summer , Rivals Leicester/United regressed and Spurs for some time underperfomed. Top 4 is given on a silver platter , they only have the league to focus and now they're hoping for relegated Norwich to beat Tottenham to maybe see if they can secure CL as there's no guarantee they won't drop points to Everton. The most points Arteta's arsenal can get is 69 , still below Emery who had europe and reached EL final
Not sure how some Arsenal fans can take Arteta seriously as a manager and he just extended...
The rules are 2024/25 season so it's 2 seasons away.Arsenal lost 6 out of the last 11 games, 15 points from 11 games whilst Spurs have taken 23 points in the same period. Looks like Arsenal have completely bottled it.
Will be a lot tougher next year with European football given the lack of strength in that squad.
Is it next season that finishing 5th will likely get CL football or is it the year after?
The thing is, Arteta looks worse, not better, if you look at it more holistically.Also, if he had won yesterday and pipped top 4, everyone would praise him for a frankly outstanding achievement. It shouldn't have to be that thin a line for evaluating managers.
I was wondering for a few minutes as to why Lucas Leiva is celebrating Arsenal's defeat
If Tottenham are going to win their last game, Arteta will end up finishing behind them the third time in a row. It is crazy to argue, that Arsenal's expectations should be lower than that of their London rival. Tottenham sacked two managers during this time, their best player threw a tantrum for a while and generally the post-Poch era hasn't been brilliant for them. Yet still better than Arsenal.I am not saying Arsenal have played particularly well of late, nor that they should have beaten Newcastle. I do think squeezing results when you're not playing well is part of the game and even ETH has had to do this for Ajax from April to May for example.
I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?
I don't really understand this line of reasoning. If the correlation between squad quality and league placement is so strong then why have managers? Or is the argument that a manager can only underperform relative to the quality of the squad, but never overperform?I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?
I loved every bit of that analysis.If Tottenham are going to win their last game, Arteta will end up finishing behind them the third time in a row. It is crazy to argue, that Arsenal's expectations should be lower than that of their London rival. Tottenham sacked two managers during this time, their best player threw a tantrum for a while and generally the post-Poch era hasn't been brilliant for them. Yet still better than Arsenal.
The placing also doesn't tell the whole story. In general their football is boring and uninspiring. There are plenty of teams in the EPL that have worse players, that are far better organized and play far better football. Its not like Conte's Tottenham is particularly brilliant, but you could see the immediate impact he had. Just like with Tuchel previously or the likes of Pep/Klopp before that. The same is also true for Howe/Newcastle. Of course the latter invested a shitload of money during the winter break, but their performances are night and day and they certainly shouldn't play Arsenal off the park. Good manager make a difference. Arteta has shown almost nothing so far. For all the talk about building something, they are still not more than the sum of its parts. His recruitment has been questionable, his tactics are bland and his handling of players has been horrible.
The only thing he can point to is, that he worked for Pep.
He’s been at the club 3 years and they aren’t really doing anything different. It’s exactly like United under Ole, good little runs then dismal periods of form.I am not saying Arsenal have played particularly well of late, nor that they should have beaten Newcastle. I do think squeezing results when you're not playing well is part of the game and even ETH has had to do this for Ajax from April to May for example.
I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?
Arsenal weren’t expected to make top 4 before the season started. So what? Context obviously matters. They weren’t to know we’d have our worst season in 30 years, they weren’t to know Spurs would be absolutely terrible and end up sacking their manager. Not getting top 4 is a clear failure regardless of pre season expectations. 6 losses in 11 is clear failure, and so is bottling a 6 point lead with a game in hand. These things are indefensible.I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?
The post I replied to said suggested he failed convincingly. I just put it to him that the league being roughly in line with squad capabilities shouldn't be a failure as such. I actually think his squad is worse than Spurs post Jan too, he had no Tierney and Tomiyasu for long stretches. No striker up top either. I think if you took either Kane or Son (both of whom are world class) out of Conte's team, they don't finish 4th. Conte was granted a couple transfers of his own on top - and Arteta in my opinion should have been backed with a striker after disposing (Rightly) of Auba, a player he never bought in the first place.I don't really understand this line of reasoning. If the correlation between squad quality and league placement is so strong then why have managers? Or is the argument that a manager can only underperform relative to the quality of the squad, but never overperform?
I think Arteta is miles better than Ole but of course is yet to deliver at Arsenal. The purchases have been patchy but their games tend to be less chaotic. Totally agree on Arteta having little excuse after 6 transfer windows but wonder if we should look at their structure rather than just resting sole blame on him. Edu is a novice in the job and the track record of shit buys pre-dates his tenure.He’s been at the club 3 years and they aren’t really doing anything different. It’s exactly like United under Ole, good little runs then dismal periods of form.
Arteta should have a settled squad by now playing towards a clear style worked over 6 different transfer windows.
United, Spurs both been in turmoil yet you can barely split them.
Sure but Arteta also culled Aubemeyang, wasn't backed in January unlike Conte and lost vital players to longer term injuries where he didn't have any depth in the position (Tomiyasu, Partey, Tierney). It means moving a CM to left back and relying on Cedric who was never good enough.Arsenal weren’t expected to make top 4 before the season started. So what? Context obviously matters. They weren’t to know we’d have our worst season in 30 years, they weren’t to know Spurs would be absolutely terrible and end up sacking their manager. Not getting top 4 is a clear failure regardless of pre season expectations. 6 losses in 11 is clear failure, and so is bottling a 6 point lead with a game in hand. These things are indefensible.
It also doesn’t reflect too well on Arteta that no one had them finishing in the top 4 before the season, despite 1.5 years in charge and a summer window of spending £150M.
Arsenal have scored pretty much the same amount of goals in the last three seasons even though Arteta has substantially changed the squad, and the number has been 20 goals less than what it was the previous three seasons. Meanwhile Aubameyang has scored 11 league goals for Barcelona in a half season.Arteta in my opinion should have been backed with a striker after disposing (Rightly) of Auba, a player he never bought in the first place.
That's an extraordinarily lazy comparison, I'm sorry. Aubemeyang had a purple patch after joining Barcelona but he found a spring in his own step wanting to show his worth in a new league for a big side. He had known disciplinary issues at Arsenal and was far from motivated to achieve this season. This was reflective of him being in some notable good positions early on and failing to put the ball in the back of the net. Arteta has had Aubemyang scoring before, but it went sour after the latter took a piss with his lackadaisical attitude to training and match-days.Arsenal have scored pretty much the same amount of goals in the last three seasons even though Arteta has substantially changed the squad, and the number has been 20 goals less than what it was the previous three seasons. Meanwhile Aubameyang has scored 11 league goals for Barcelona in a half season.
I feel pretty comfortable saying that the issue here isn't the striker, it's Arteta's style of football.
I agree, the problem wasn't selling Auba - it was not replacing him. However, if Arteta knew he couldn't replace him before the Summer, he should have made it work until the end of the season. We simply have too few reliable goal scorers. Our front three is now:That's an extraordinarily lazy comparison, I'm sorry. Aubemeyang had a purple patch after joining Barcelona but he found a spring in his own step wanting to show his worth in a new league for a big side. He had known disciplinary issues at Arsenal and was far from motivated to achieve this season. This was reflective of him being in some notable good positions early on and failing to put the ball in the back of the net. Arteta has had Aubemyang scoring before, but it went sour after the latter took a piss with his lackadaisical attitude to training and match-days.
Arteta took out the problem early on as a message to the dressing room, which I think is correct. But he then had no proper striker capable to take on the reigns outside of Lacazette who himself will be out the door soon enough. Shy of Nketiah and Saka, there isn't really anyone. Martinelli has been on/off with injuries and Odegard is a creator. He's relying a bunch of 19-22 year olds to get by scoring - which is why I said he needs to be backed with a goalscorer of his own.
