Excluding this summer, Only City and Chelsea spent more money than Arsenal in last 2 seasons (Arteta's time), so assuming he spent 3rd most money in league too in that time.
If you add Kulu and Romero then Spurs as much as Arsenal, more or less.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
If you add Kulu and Romero then Spurs as much as Arsenal, more or less.
Arteta is not 6th best manager in the league, just like how Ole wasn't 2nd and 3rd best manager in the league.
Potter is miles better manager than Arteta.
Pep, Klopp, Conte, Tuchel, Moyes, Rodgers, Potter, Bruno Lage, Thomas Frank are better than Arteta going by what they achieved. Then you have managers like Vieira who did very good job at Palace, playing good football.
This is excluding new managers who are in PL this season.
Obviously Pep, Klopp, Conte and Tuchel.
Moyes, Rodgers, Potter, Lage and Frank all have their own question marks IMO and if you feel that they are all doing a better job than Arteta then I'm not going to argue with you because Arteta has his faults too.
And
So it's not like I'm calling the Guy a footballing genius.
I just don't think he's terrible or doing a terrible job.
He might be going decent job but so are many managers. You have to rate managers based on the league finish compared to the size of the club, expectation, budget, wages and all that. Arsenal have finished roughly around their average position, whereas the work Potter did with Brighton is something beyond Arteta, same with Moyes at West Ham.
I'm not calling Arteta terrible either, it's just that there are many better managers than him.
Well that's all I've really argued for in this thread, if we look at their club / wages / budget/ manager realistically how can we artificially inflate the expectation to a top 4 finish? You can only piss with the cock you've got!
For Arteta to finish 4th at least one of the 4 clubs (Probably actually 2/5) that are in a better position ( Bigger Budgets/ Better Squad and Managers etc) will have to "Fail" pretty spectacularly in their expectations for him to achieve what is being described as a realistic expectation due to his time/ expenditure. (I think 3 clubs will hit 80+ points this year)
That's why I've been saying that if he came 5th in a close race I wouldnt call it a bad job and if he got 4th he would be exceeding my expectations of him/his squad vs his competition and I would regard that as a good job.
So what exactly is the point of Arteta then?
Replace Artera with Conte, they will be favorites for top 4. that's what good managers do and that's something fans and club should expect from manager when they spend shit loads of money.
Anyways what is good season for Arsenal is for Arsenal fans to decide, all I'm saying is, he isn't 5th or 6th best manager in the league. He is not even in top 10 managers in the league.
United also spent more on transfer fees since Arteta was hired as Fernandes would be included during that period. Spurs have spent a little bit more with Kulu and Romero.
If you factor in wages, Arsenal has also spent less on player costs during that time than Liverpool.
The idea that Arsenal have spent this massive amount on players during this period just doesn't hold water when you compare with the rest of the big six. They've spent either the 5th most or the 6th most depending on how you calculate.
Agreed. (Also agree that if Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Poch etc went there they would be favorites.)
What I don't agree with is that if Moyes, Rodgers, Potter, Lage ,Viera etc that they would be favorites for 4th because they are better than Arteta (In fact I think they may be worse but Potter deserves a chance).
I agree, Moyes, Rodgers, Potter won't make them favorites for 4th. Put it this way, if Arteta was in charge of West Ham, Brighton, Wolves, Palace he would have done worse job than the current managers.
So when you assess performance of Arteta, you want to use full season saying he finished 8th and 5th instead of 8th, 8th, 5th but when it comes to transfers, you want to include the midseason transfers?
Can we also say Arteta finished 8th twice in 3 years then?
How doesn't that hold water? Arsenal spend massive amount, just because other clubs spent as much doesn't mean Arsenal didn't.
Lets consider Burno transfer, so ManUtd spent around 20-25 million more than Arsenal, finished 3rd, 2nd and then sacked manager when he was in 7th position, which would be Arteta's 2nd best league finish.
Leicester who spent way less than Arteta finished ahead of Arsenal in 2 out of 3 seasons.
Spurs who spent less than Arsenal finished ahead of Arsenal 3/3 seasons and they sacked 3 managers.
Anyways it's good he is Arsenal manager.
Its possible, he definitely wouldn't have had the financial backing but he also wouldn't have to deal with the expectations of the Arsenal fan base or their old rivals.
We've already seen how Moyes dealt with the pressure at United (I'm not a big fan of David).
I think Potter should be given a chance at a big club and I think Newcastle should have went all out for him. (Until he does it's hard to say how it will work out)
Lage I'd need to see more from, I don't think he did a bad job but it's a little defensive for my tastes, maybe he will be more expansive this coming season.
Viera did a good job while blooding new players and if he can improve on last year's points total (without Gallagher) he should get a chance at a bigger club.
When I said upthread that people at this site were obsessed with Arteta, this is what I'm talking about.
You asked about spending during his time in charge. I gave you the correct figures, nothing more, nothing less. I'm sorry if the truth about those numbers somehow complicates your obsessive Mikel Arteta agenda.
So let me understand this correctly, Arteta is not expected to finish top 4 because other teams are better. How come a shit spurs in September managed to overtake Arteta's mighty arsenal. I agree no one expected Arsenal to finish in top 4 but then football is not played on paper. When the chance was presented for Arteta and Arsenal to finish 4th, they bottled it.
I always keep on asking here, what's the end goal with Arteta? Maybe that makes me obsessed but I am just curious. Last season he had no European game, one game per week and yet he failed to end in top 4 especially when United had their worst season and Spurs themselves were ropey. And add to that both Leicester and Westham were focusing on European football.
No one with straight face can come and say Arteta is a better manager than Moyes or Rodgers, two managers who I myself don't rate. But both of them are much better manager than Arteta. Then you have Potter, Eddie Howe, Bruno Lage, Thomas Frank, even Jesse Marsh, all of them who play better football with less resource and argubaly much better manager than Arteta at this stage.
Anyways he gets one more season to manage and again if he doesn't get the CL football again after again presumably spending over £100m , then what's the point of him.
I always keep on asking here, what's the end goal with Arteta? Maybe that makes me obsessed but I am just curious. Last season he had no European game, one game per week and yet he failed to end in top 4 especially when United had their worst season and Spurs themselves were ropey. And add to that both Leicester and Westham were focusing on European football.
No one with straight face can come and say Arteta is a better manager than Moyes or Rodgers, two managers who I myself don't rate. But both of them are much better manager than Arteta. Then you have Potter, Eddie Howe, Bruno Lage, Thomas Frank, even Jesse Marsh, all of them who play better football with less resource and argubaly much better manager than Arteta at this stage.
Anyways he gets one more season to manage and again if he doesn't get the CL football again after again presumably spending over £100m , then what's the point of him.
Lets get few things straight, no Manutd fan would want arteta to be sacked, he should be Arsenal manager for long time. That's what we all want. Don't call obsessed, maybe you can use obsessed when you tag it with laughing at Arsenal.
Lets go by your points. Spurs spent less, ManUtd spent around 20-25 million more, so what? Manutd finished 3rd, 2rd and manager was sacked when he was in 7th position, which is better than 2/3 seasons Arteta was in charge. Spurs finished above Arsenal all 3 seasons and sacked 3 managers in that time.
You can also say ManUtd and Spurs made money back by qualifying for CL whereas Arsenal have nothing to show for the money they have spent.
Apart from all this, do you agree or disagree with the point that Arteta finished 8th, 8th and 5th position?
Give us one good reason why ManUtd fans will be obsessed with Arteta? If we are talking about Pep, Klopp, Conte and even Tuchel I can see the point. Why should we obsess with fecking Arteta? Maybe the reason this thread has more posts is because of few deluded takes which takes pages and pages of arguments?
Well I don't think that it's very complicated (from my perspective).
Are there 4 better teams/ squads?
Do those 4 better teams have a better manager?
If there are 4 better teams/ squads and they each have a better manager...
Where do you expect Arsenal/Arteta to finish?
I don't expect Liverpool to win the league because City are better.
I don't expect Nunez to outscore Haaland because Haaland is better.
Isn't that just assessing the competition and making a judgement?
I'd say that it's down to Spurs appointing Conte, signing him some players in January and Arsenals squad depth being exposed due to injuries to Partey and their starting fullbacks.
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I don't know what pressure Arteta has at Arsenal, Emery now that's a manager who was under immense pressure from day 1. Looks like Arteta gets lot of free ride compared to previous Arsenal managers and going by few Arsenal fans, there is no expectations on him at all. They just want Arteta to be in charge whether he finishes 4th or 6th.
I agree with your point that not every manager can handle the pressure, we have seen lot of managers who failed when moved to big clubs. Likewise Arteta has done nothing to put him above the managers I mentioned.
You have to be kidding right? The fans are letting him get away with murder. Expectations are that he turns up for football matches and turns oxygen into carbon dioxide.
The problem with this kind of argument is that the main reason we "know" some squads and managers are better than other is because of their league position. Which means the argument is, if not fully circular, then at least semi-circular.
Case in point: Liverpool have won the league.
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The problem with trying to rank managers in any way, maybe apart from the elite managers, is that their body of work can be totally different.
Some might have a large body of work, some like Arteta none, some might have experience at the top clubs and not done well, some might have experience only of smaller clubs, some might have experience of multiple leagues / countries, some might have only success in their resume, some might be more mixed etc etc.
Plus, the main part, is everything is subjective.
All we can say about Arteta is what he has done so far in his 2.5 years.
3 league finishes of 8th, 8th & 5th with 56 points, 61 points & 69 points. At least that's showing improvement so far, although from a low base.
x1 FA Cup win, x1 Community Shield (who cares), with next best a League Cup & Europa League semi. However, exits to teams like Nottingham Forest & Southampton.
You can see from the views on here and amongst Arsenal fans how subjective a job he's done / and is doing.
Some might have a large body of work, some like Arteta none, some might have experience at the top clubs and not done well, some might have experience only of smaller clubs, some might have experience of multiple leagues / countries, some might have only success in their resume, some might be more mixed etc etc.
Plus, the main part, is everything is subjective.
All we can say about Arteta is what he has done so far in his 2.5 years.
3 league finishes of 8th, 8th & 5th with 56 points, 61 points & 69 points. At least that's showing improvement so far, although from a low base.
x1 FA Cup win, x1 Community Shield (who cares), with next best a League Cup & Europa League semi. However, exits to teams like Nottingham Forest & Southampton.
You can see from the views on here and amongst Arsenal fans how subjective a job he's done / and is doing.
Well yeah , Klopp exceeded expectations with the team/ squad and that's why he's roundly lauded. (And I said before good luck to arsenal identifying the next Klopp and then convincing him to go to Arsenal)
Besides I was talking about next season.
I think you can look at all the moving parts of a club and pass judgement.
Example (IMO for next season)
City should win the league.
Liverpool should challenge (although I think they will be further off this year).
Chelsea should get closer to the top 2 but I don't think they will challenge (depending on transfer activity, if they don't invest they will be closer to 4th)
Spurs should solidify themselves in the top 4 (after their transfer activity) but I don't expect a challenge from them or that they will even get close to the top 2.
United and Arsenal should be challenging for that 4th spot (Though IMO there is more pressure on Arteta to deliver and I don't think ETH should be under pressure to get Champions League football next year , If he does he will have exceeded my expectations).
So IMO those are my realistic expectations based on all the factors at those clubs.
If Liverpool were to win the league, Spurs came within 3 points of the top and Arsenal came third I would say they have exceeded my expectations.
I would not say that there are 4 better squads and managers than at Arsenal next season, on the 1st of July 2022.
I would say that there are definitely 3 right now (City, Liverpool and Spurs) and if Chelsea add 2/3 more players I would put them ahead too.
United is more of a coin toss IMO put if they were to get FdJ and Eriksen, along with another 1/2 I'd say that they also have a better squad and Manager.
But this is obviously all just my opinion and perspective.
While you are judging a manager you should also not put managers of other teams in the equation. It should just be if there are 4 better squads or not. Atleast that is what i feel.
Spurs are better because of Conte's work, before Conte signed don't think anyone had Spurs as 3rd best squad in the league. That's what elite managers do, get so much more than sum of its part that whole squad looks better. Likewise average one brings down the quality of the squad.
It's not just the incomings that he's been massively backed on but also the outgoings as well.
Aubameyang, Ozil and Kolasinac were all paid off to leave, would have been the same for Willian as well but amazingly he waived the £20m owed to him. He's binned off a 23 year old French international for £9m, had they played that one a bit smarter maybe they wouldn't be coming up short for Raphinha and/or Martinez. He's not doing a bad job overall and they are moving in the right direction but at the same time there's no guarantee they'll actually reach their desired destination.
Aubameyang, Ozil and Kolasinac were all paid off to leave, would have been the same for Willian as well but amazingly he waived the £20m owed to him. He's binned off a 23 year old French international for £9m, had they played that one a bit smarter maybe they wouldn't be coming up short for Raphinha and/or Martinez. He's not doing a bad job overall and they are moving in the right direction but at the same time there's no guarantee they'll actually reach their desired destination.
Well that's true, and I wouldn't have said they are the third best squad in the league either at the time he arrived.
If it wasn't for the fact that Conte signed Bentancur, Kulusevski, Bissouma, Richarlison and Perisic and Chelsea lost Rudigar, Christiensen and Lukaku (without signing replacements) I wouldn't call them the 3rd best squad in the league at the moment either.
So while Conte did a good job to get to 4th he didn't just magic the players that were there into the 3rd best squad in the league, he removed the players he thought weren't up to it and brought in new players.
Now they have a better platform to launch off next season BUT if Chelsea massively reinvest I would put them over Spurs and adjust my expectations accordingly.
Again I agree with you , which is why I never called Arteta an Elite manager (whilst stating that I believe Conte is) and have said repeatedly that if Arsenal can identify one AND convince him to go there they should do it.
I agree with you here too, so IMO if Arteta doesn't challenge for 4th he will have brought the quality of the squad down because it's a squad that is capable of at least challenging and hitting 70+ points.
Whether 70+ points is enough for 4th is another story (the year Ole came third he got 66 so it's possible) but if he was to hit 74 (Oles second place total) and come 5th I wouldn't perceive that as a bad job.
I would say (in that theoretical instance) he did a good job and was unlucky, while some here will say "5th isn't good enough".
They got 69 last year (beating Oles third place total in the process) and got nothing but a Europa League entry for what would have been Oles second highest points total. (74,66,66)
Fine but they play a part in where the team will finish (and therefore my expectations of the clubs final league position).
If we put Moyes into City right now I don't think they would be Favorites for the League anymore for example.
You can only judge a teams seasons expectations by accurately judging their competition IMO.
I'm sure it's reflected in the gambling odds for next season.
You are putting emphasis on points attained when that is just a flawed argument. I will explain why. Ole to get that 3rd position with 66 points had more pressure games which he won a do or die game with Leicester who were also vying for top 4. Also, that was a covid year where games were scheduled left right and centre , yet we came back took the 3rd spot when no one expected.
The next season that you keep pointing about 74 points, you are not considering United had Europa final and literally gave up on the league in the last 5 odd games. I am sure you won't remember but we literally fielded a young team with youth against Leicester and faced a fresu Liverpool 48 hours after that. We had a europa final so stopped caring too much about say beating Fulham or Leeds. Point is we could have easily finished with 77 or 80 points and wouldn't have made our seaons any different. On the contrary Arsenal last season had no such problem, one game per week mostly with no European football.
I would rather finish 1st with 80 points than 2nd with 95 points. Arteta had a chance to get the 4th spot and all he had to was beat zpalace, Brighton and he failed. Then in the crunch game against Spurs he lost unlike Ole who beat Leicester at Leicester to get that 3rd spot. That is why I said maybe determining who is doing a better job by comparing points tally from different season is a poor barometer.
I'm not bashing Ole.
The only reason I'm even talking about him is that people keep bringing up his finishes as proof that Arteta is underachieving relative to Oles success.
I think points totals are a fairer way of assessing overall performance personally.
Also I remember that season quite well and there was no way Leicester should have been finishing above United to begin with IMO.
Yes and they didn't. Similarly there was no business of Westham or Leicester finishing above Arsenal two seasons back but they did. Which just proves football is not played on paper. Your point that no way Arsenal can overcome other 4 sides because they have a better squad is a poor point. Maybe if they had a better manager people would have put money on them to finish top 4. But with Arteta 5th or 6th will also be considered a decent achievement.
I didn't say that
I said that I don't realistically expect them to and if they do I would say he did a good/ great job because they have a weaker squad than at least 3 teams right now and probably 4+ by the end of the transfer window.I've literally said probably 5 times now that exact same thing.
They don't.
I wouldn't be calling it a decent achievement but I wouldn't be saying he did a bad job either.
@AshRK , @roonster09
Where do you believe Arsenal should finish?
The only thing I've stated is that the 6ish manager in the league with probably the 6ish squad (by the time the transfer window is closed and United and Chelsea have strengthened) should probably finish close to 4th place and challenge for it (and if he got it should be counted as doing a good/ great job).
What are your expectations?
Where do you believe Arsenal should finish?
The only thing I've stated is that the 6ish manager in the league with probably the 6ish squad (by the time the transfer window is closed and United and Chelsea have strengthened) should probably finish close to 4th place and challenge for it (and if he got it should be counted as doing a good/ great job).
What are your expectations?
I belive they will finish 6th, not because they have worse squad, it's because they have poor manager.
If they had Conte then i would have expected them to finish fourth.
Fair enough , I would say in that instance I would credit Conte for dragging a 6th place squad to a 4th place finish but you obviously rate their individuals higher than I do or rate those around them lower so can't really argue with you.
Imo people rate squad based on where they finish rather than looking at individuals.
Managers play big role in creating system for players to play at their maximum and also improve them. Players drive is very important too but when players know exactly what to do with and without ball, it's easy for them to show what they are capable of. It's like robots controlled by remote.
1. City
2. Liverpool
3. Spurs
4. Man Utd
5. Chelsea
6. Arsenal
I think Chelsea will struggle this year but they're a better team than Arsenal still. Obviously my prediction about United is pulled out of my hole, who knows but we certainly have some top players which I'm not sure you could say Arsenal do.
2. Liverpool
3. Spurs
4. Man Utd
5. Chelsea
6. Arsenal
I think Chelsea will struggle this year but they're a better team than Arsenal still. Obviously my prediction about United is pulled out of my hole, who knows but we certainly have some top players which I'm not sure you could say Arsenal do.
I usually rate them by their individual talent and then rate a manager by the performance he gets from the squad.
At the moment for example I'd say that Spurs edge Arsenal for talent in attack (Kane, Son, Kulusevski, Richarlison) Midfield (Bissouma, Hojberg) and I'd say it's about 50/50 in defence at best (I rate starting Arsenals fullbacks higher but I like Romero and would probably take Lloris over Ramsdale).
Add Conte to those individuals and I think they have a shot of hitting 78+ points next season.*
Anything higher than 85 I'd say Conte has done a fantastic job and 90 plus he would be manager of the season territory.
*Depending on injuries etc which you can't account for in preseason.
Well let me put this way, if I were an Arsenal fan I would be saying the guy has been here for 2.5 years now, more or less it's his squad. Only Klopp and Pep from top 6 has spent more time than him at their respective club so my goal is top 4 or bust or europa win or bust. Otherwise what's the end goal with him. If he was appointed just to finish 6th, well why sack Emery then.
If you say he has the 6th best squad, well that again raises more questions towards him. It's not like he hasn't been backed. He has spent some good amount so why can't he build a squad that can match Spurs or United or other top 6 club. Which is why most Arteta critics here are saying there are plenty of better managers than him who will do a better job than he is doing. I just don't buy that no one can do what he has done in 2.5 years.
I'd say you aren't very far off to be honest.
Chelsea have gaping holes IMO due to the uncertainty around the club from last season and the disaster that was the Lukaku signing so I would tip you to give them a run for their money with ETH in charge (and DeJong/ Eriksen).
Theres still a lot to do in the transfer market for Chelsea and United so it's hard to judge them.
Yeah I'd agree with you here, it's his squad now.
Fair enough.
Don't get me wrong I do believe that there are plenty of other managers in world football who could have done a similar job.
The problem is convincing the ones who could do a better job to come to Arsenal.
If it all goes pearshaped for Arteta this season I really do believe that he will leave the club in a better place than he found it (comparing the squads /obviously paid large amounts of money for but that's Football) and the next manager will have a higher base to build from (and if they discover the next Klopp could turn them into a Top 4 club).