Fair enough got my numbers wrong. Regardless they still lack any options except from jota.
Minimum Bar for Continuity in Ole's Third Full Season
- Thread starter Raveneye
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I would want to win any trophy and a top 3 finish. I would also like to see us score more in the first half. Not wait until minute 85 to score and win 2-1.
Since when are players around 30 year old finished? These days it is the prime of careers, judged by various examples in several sports.
they are in front for the simple matter that they have already proven their worth by winning the premier league and champions league something utd hasn’t even gotten a sniff at with this squad.
Just over a year ago their 3 attackers were perhaps the greatest attack in the world, they haven’t forgotten how to play in 12 months time.
the midfield admittedly puzzles me as well, I never understood how they bossed matches but the fact is that they did. Indo think like you they will miss Wijnaldum. His play at the Euros was very good, he will be missed.
Anyway I hope you are right though for all I care they finish last
I said they have no cover for those 3 players of which only 2 are even top class. Thats my point. We have atleast 6 attackers who are great options.Since when are players around 30 year old finished? These days it is the prime of careers, judged by various examples in several sports.
they are in front for the simple matter that they have already proven their worth by winning the premier league and champions league something utd hasn’t even gotten a sniff at with this squad.
Just over a year ago their 3 attackers were perhaps the greatest attack in the world, they haven’t forgotten how to play in 12 months time.
the midfield admittedly puzzles me as well, I never understood how they bossed matches but the fact is that they did. Indo think like you they will miss Wijnaldum. His play at the Euros was very good, he will be missed.
Anyway I hope you are right though for all I care they finish last
I don’t know the liverpool squad currently, do they not have Shaqiri anymore? In my opinion he is better than Greenwood and Martial. Salah Firmino Mane Jota are tremendous attacking options imo, together with Shaqiri that makes 5, not too bad.
Not having a pop specifically at you, but I genuinely people who rate Shaqiri this highly only ever watch him at international tournaments every couple of years.
Because nothing he's done at club level since about 2011 suggests he's close to as good as Greenwood and Martial.
I get it was a controversial opinion and I fully agree I base my opinion on him playing for Switzerland, he is really good for them, in the meantime both Greenwood and Martial were absent at the Euros, it is not an insane claim to call Shaqiri better imo. I also liked his play a lot at his former club, forget who it was, Stoke? Not sure but he is quite the footballer, he was like Martial and Greenwood earlier in his career highly touted as one of the next big things. So far both Martial and Shaqiri have not met these expectations but if I have to compare the two I’d pick Shaqiri.
For Greenwood it is still too early, I don’t think he is going to be a world beater either to be fair. Time will tell…
Wow. So basically the same as last season. Is this satire?
I believe City are favorites to win, so no reasonable expectations for us to win.
I do believe there is quite a gap in our squad to Citys, so no expectation to challenge.
We have a squad that should finish within the top 4. I think everyone of United, Pool, City or Chelsea have a chance at winning, and there is a gap down to the likes of Arsenal, Everton, Tottenham and Leicester, so we would have a very bad season to finish outside of the top 4.
I don't rate our quality on GK, DM or ST. If Pogba goes we would also need a quality replacement for him. When that is addressed I would expect a title challenge minimum.
* I am assuming Kane goes to City.
I do believe there is quite a gap in our squad to Citys, so no expectation to challenge.
We have a squad that should finish within the top 4. I think everyone of United, Pool, City or Chelsea have a chance at winning, and there is a gap down to the likes of Arsenal, Everton, Tottenham and Leicester, so we would have a very bad season to finish outside of the top 4.
I don't rate our quality on GK, DM or ST. If Pogba goes we would also need a quality replacement for him. When that is addressed I would expect a title challenge minimum.
* I am assuming Kane goes to City.
Fair enough. Safe to say I don't agree with most of your points.
We're signing better players for the team but we still won't dominate enough teams in attack to win the league.
The league is very likely to go to City again, even more so if they sign either of Grealish or Kane.
Sancho and Rashford are good, but are they enough to topple a City team that has insane squad depth and attacking options? No. It'll either need strong attacking depth which we don't have or need something like what prime Mane and Salah did, and neither Rashford or Sancho are at that level yet.
The team is young though so in about a year or two with more attacking reinforcements, we'll likely be ready to challenge. Just goes to show what a waste 2013-2018 was in terms of rebuilding SAFs squad because very few of those players signed actually still start for us.
The league is very likely to go to City again, even more so if they sign either of Grealish or Kane.
Sancho and Rashford are good, but are they enough to topple a City team that has insane squad depth and attacking options? No. It'll either need strong attacking depth which we don't have or need something like what prime Mane and Salah did, and neither Rashford or Sancho are at that level yet.
The team is young though so in about a year or two with more attacking reinforcements, we'll likely be ready to challenge. Just goes to show what a waste 2013-2018 was in terms of rebuilding SAFs squad because very few of those players signed actually still start for us.
How is shaqiri better than martial or greenwood? Also no he is gone
Better technique, great striker of the ball, can hold the ball, can dribble, makes things happen as judged by the Swiss games and last but not least he has very much self confidence.
If you are talking about stats, I simply don't know them I don't care for stats, I only judge with me eyes. The guy is a real handful every time I see him play. Martial on the other hand often goes missing and seems weak minded.
Greenwood is still developing. I don't see a hugely technical player, not a great dribbler, pretty decent ball control though, decent finishing. Not particularly good in combination, I see no connection with Wan Bissaka either He should get better but at this moment I have him below Shaqiri.
If you are talking about stats, I simply don't know them I don't care for stats, I only judge with me eyes. The guy is a real handful every time I see him play. Martial on the other hand often goes missing and seems weak minded.
Greenwood is still developing. I don't see a hugely technical player, not a great dribbler, pretty decent ball control though, decent finishing. Not particularly good in combination, I see no connection with Wan Bissaka either He should get better but at this moment I have him below Shaqiri.
A decent title challenge with a top 3 finish
A quarter final run in the CL
A reduction in goals from set-pieces and a visible sign that we are using our full attacking potential going forward
A quarter final run in the CL
A reduction in goals from set-pieces and a visible sign that we are using our full attacking potential going forward
its not satire
the minimum is at least what we did this year
what I really want is for us to do better this year, but the minimum is at least as good
To be within 4 pts of top at the end of April.
We cannot accept another season of being 15 pts behind in January but brag about finishing second.
Ole has his squad now (bar maybe a midfielder), there are no more excuses for the wishy washy performances in the league.
He has to qualify for the KO rounds of CL as well. Obviously we could come up against the potential champions in the last 16 so could potentially knocked out. But in that scenario I want us to make a good account of ourselves and not play defensive, counter attacking football.
We cannot accept another season of being 15 pts behind in January but brag about finishing second.
Ole has his squad now (bar maybe a midfielder), there are no more excuses for the wishy washy performances in the league.
He has to qualify for the KO rounds of CL as well. Obviously we could come up against the potential champions in the last 16 so could potentially knocked out. But in that scenario I want us to make a good account of ourselves and not play defensive, counter attacking football.
I think where I draw the line is on the other side of being constantly focused on exactly what it takes for us to not fire the manager, as if firing the manager was our natural state of being, and one that could only be temporarily suspended on specific and clearly outlined terms.
Not really true. If anything Ole is the manager who’s had the most leniency from both the board and fans.
Moyes sacked after falling to qualify for the CL.
LVG sacked after failing to qualify for the CL despite winning a cup and playing a load youngsters and still finishing equal on points with City.
Mourinho sacked after finishing 2nd but having a bad start, granted decision was mostly down to him falling it out with the squad.
I don’t care who the manager is. We need minimum requirements. With the players he inherited, the players he’s bought, it’s coming up to now or never. The whole rebuilding is pretty much over. There are managers who would win the league or CL with this squad, whether Ole is one of those manager’s we will find out.
oooooook. well Rio Ferdinand and Scholes alluded to this after the Europa defeat that the standard may not be there throughout the club from top to bottom. They questioned whether there is even any pressure to win at United anymore and whether we are in recruit mode? Is there an actual demand to be successful or just show some progress? it seems from some fans there is neither.
We need "minimum requirements"? Who exactly needs "minimum requirements"? And for what? It's a plainly ridiculous concept. The only thing it does is give people an excuse to stop thinking.
None of OGS' predecessors were sacked for failing to meet "minimum requirements". They were sacked because they had all reached a point where it had become plain that things weren't going in the direction they should. With Moyes and Mourinho at least, things were pretty acute - it was just plain that they had lost the confidence of the squad to the point where there was really not much point in carrying on. LvG was probably more debatable, but there were serious and long-standing concerns over his transfer acquisitions, style of play, man management, results, style of communication and reverence for the club. There were good reasons for all of them to go. There are not currently any such good reasons for OGS to go. And whether there will be isn't decided by whether they reach the CL quarter finals or whatever.
So I don't know what you're imagining you're making better by having people draw lines in their own imagination in order to feel entitled to be disappointed if those lines aren't reached. It's pretty much an exercise in pointless self-aggravation.
Embarrasing? They finished 3rd, a few points behind you, despite playing a huge portion of the season with 0 senior central defenders as well as losing Thiago, Henderson and Jota to significant playing time. Plus having to break up their midfield so they could use their best midfielder in defence, while they scrambled to get 2 players up to speed who hadn’t played a single minute of Premier League football between them before. One of whom was at Kidderminster Harriers the season before I believe and the other in the 2nd division in Germany.
If that is embarrassing, I think I’d be more embarrassed at only just finishing ahead of them! Liverpool’s season hung on couple awful months early in the year. Before and after they where more than fine. That would concern me looking at them from the outside.
As for Ole, minimum requirement is surely a title challenge and a cup title win. No, he doesn’t need to win the league, but he has to get this club challenging.
He has a fantastic squad of players and of cousre has had substantial investment into that squad, and not losing any players he didn’t want to lose along the way. This team is at the point where a sustained challenge is necessary. No excuses.
Sorry, but that's surely overdoing it quite a bit. Sure they had some serious injury trouble, and maximum bad luck in so much of it falling on the same position, but that's a 30-point drop we're talking about. With long spells of results much worse than could be reasonably expected given the available personell. They were more than lucky to sneak into the top 4, which their late season form would not have enabled had it not been for Leicester and Spurs folding and Chelsea and West Ham suffering a few unexpected hiccups late in the season. I very much doubt Klopp thinks that was more or less as could be expected, given the injuries.
That being said, I think you're right that there's every reason to think they'll be back as a major force this season, and also that there may be reason to expect a tighter a challenge from United this year.
Minimum expectation: Win a domestic cup and Top 4.
Reasonable expectation: Win the champions league. When you sign players like Sancho and Varane, you have to shoot for the stars.
Reasonable expectation: Win the champions league. When you sign players like Sancho and Varane, you have to shoot for the stars.
I predict we're going to be genuinely a stingy side to score on this season. 33 goals conceded on the season. 80+ scored. As for goals, I prefer to keep them realistic instead of the bluster "I demand xx".
I'll be happy wit the following. DEPENDING on the following variables:
A) No major/long term injuries on: Bruno, Maguire, Shaw- The team is so incredibly realiant on them (I'll get to why teams are reliant on players in a minute).
B) Manchester City does not run rampant and win 35 in a row
C) Anthony Martial shows up for the season
D) Bruno Fernandes starts playing well again. He's been average to poor for some time. Bad Euro 2020. We need him to find his A game again
1) A real prolonged title challenge. The team needs to start out STRONG and get ahead the first quarter of the season. We face Leeds, Southampton, Wolves, Newcastle, West Ham, Aston Villa, Everton in that stretch. ALL are matches we can win.
Substituted: 85 points on the season will be another season with clear long term progression.
I will be disappointed if we go 3-3-2 or something of the like. A real underwhelming start to the campaign. (No that won't be cause to fire the manager, sit down)
2) A final/semi final in the domestic cups. A title would be nice, but it's a bit dependent on the draws. For once it would be nice to have Manchester Citys cupdraws in the cup runs.
3) Knockout stages of the Champions League/Quarter/Semi final depending on matchup. I can forgive the team to lose out to Bayern, Barcelona or Real Madrid over 2 stages. I feel pretty good about teams like PSG, Juventus, Dortmund etc though.
3.1) If failed qualification to knockout stages (with impact from any combination of A) - Win the Europa League
4) Scoring record from Mason Greenwood. Masons record is 19 in 51 games. If he can keep healthy on the season and we get into a dominant stretch, I'd like to see 30 on the season from Mason
5) Antony Elanga has a breakout season. I think he will stay with the club for this campaign. 5 EPL goals for Elanga in 2021/2022
6) I just want the overall harmony and feel of the club to progress the way it has been. More and more this feels like a team you can care about, with characters that embodies the club. Instead of mercenaries and forgettable faces like Falcao and Di Maria you have potential legends in the making like Maguire, Shaw, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay (yes, him), etc. Players that go well above and beyond for the emblem on the shirt. It feels good to be a Manchester United fan again, and long may it continue. We just added one of the best Centerbacks in world football because he actually wanted to come to the club, not just because we threw comedy money at him. "Raphael Varane wants to join Man United because of the prospect of playing under Ole Gunnar Solskjaer’s system, as per Fabrizio Romano." -
All in all, I just want the camera to pan up to a smiling Sir Alex on the stands, and know that things are going to be very alright.
I'll be happy wit the following. DEPENDING on the following variables:
A) No major/long term injuries on: Bruno, Maguire, Shaw- The team is so incredibly realiant on them (I'll get to why teams are reliant on players in a minute).
B) Manchester City does not run rampant and win 35 in a row
C) Anthony Martial shows up for the season
D) Bruno Fernandes starts playing well again. He's been average to poor for some time. Bad Euro 2020. We need him to find his A game again
1) A real prolonged title challenge. The team needs to start out STRONG and get ahead the first quarter of the season. We face Leeds, Southampton, Wolves, Newcastle, West Ham, Aston Villa, Everton in that stretch. ALL are matches we can win.
Substituted: 85 points on the season will be another season with clear long term progression.
I will be disappointed if we go 3-3-2 or something of the like. A real underwhelming start to the campaign. (No that won't be cause to fire the manager, sit down)
2) A final/semi final in the domestic cups. A title would be nice, but it's a bit dependent on the draws. For once it would be nice to have Manchester Citys cupdraws in the cup runs.
3) Knockout stages of the Champions League/Quarter/Semi final depending on matchup. I can forgive the team to lose out to Bayern, Barcelona or Real Madrid over 2 stages. I feel pretty good about teams like PSG, Juventus, Dortmund etc though.
3.1) If failed qualification to knockout stages (with impact from any combination of A) - Win the Europa League
4) Scoring record from Mason Greenwood. Masons record is 19 in 51 games. If he can keep healthy on the season and we get into a dominant stretch, I'd like to see 30 on the season from Mason
5) Antony Elanga has a breakout season. I think he will stay with the club for this campaign. 5 EPL goals for Elanga in 2021/2022
6) I just want the overall harmony and feel of the club to progress the way it has been. More and more this feels like a team you can care about, with characters that embodies the club. Instead of mercenaries and forgettable faces like Falcao and Di Maria you have potential legends in the making like Maguire, Shaw, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay (yes, him), etc. Players that go well above and beyond for the emblem on the shirt. It feels good to be a Manchester United fan again, and long may it continue. We just added one of the best Centerbacks in world football because he actually wanted to come to the club, not just because we threw comedy money at him. "Raphael Varane wants to join Man United because of the prospect of playing under Ole Gunnar Solskjaer’s system, as per Fabrizio Romano." -
All in all, I just want the camera to pan up to a smiling Sir Alex on the stands, and know that things are going to be very alright.
of course i want us to be successful and would love it if we won a trophy this year.
However to prove to me the minimal he needs to do is as good as last year
the season after would then need improvement
and the season after that and so on
Be in the title race until end of season and a trophy
That isn't how progress works.
Why are you giving him a blank cheque? If you want to see improvement season on season why is it that this season he only needs to "do as good as last year?" That's not improvement. We've just signed 2 WC talent. Surely just by that alone it should raise expectations through the roof? I don't expect Ole to win the league but a serious title challenge has to be the minimal. QF of the CL has to be the minimal and at least 1 domestic trophy has to be the minimal. Not doing as good as last year.
As long as I see progress I honestly don't mind anything above the top 4 even if there isn't a trophy. The squad all love him and clearly believe he is the right person for the job and that is worth far more than people realise imo. I also believe the top 4 are all extremely strong and capable of winning the CL in their own right, so it's not like not winning the league can realistically be seen as a disaster. If we finished outside the top 4, that would make me second guess things though because we are clearly stronger than any of the other teams imo
At what stage of the season is another thing when considering this question. If say at Christmas we’ve been knocked out the CL and sit 12 points off the top, then I’d be wanting Ole out then. But if we’re taking towards the end of season, I’d expect us in a serious title race with 6 games to go, have got to the QF of the CL and probably been knocked out and still in a domestic cup competition.
Considering support Ole is getting from owners - no less than 2 or 3 place in PL, QF in CL, some kind of trophy (FA cup maybe). Otherwise it's a failure.
Please hire me for any jobs or businesses that you may have
Sure. As soon as I have need of someone whose only job is to watch things, but who likes to tell people off in their mind for breaking imaginary requirements, I'll be right on to you.
Dominating football, no more than 5 losses all season in the league, preferably no losses at OT, distinct patterns of play and a real title challenge.
85 pts in the league, 80 goals scored, CL QF.
1. Win a trophy. Any trophy.
2. At least a second place finish in the league with the gap to be closer to the winners.
3. At least a quarter final finish in the CL.
2. At least a second place finish in the league with the gap to be closer to the winners.
3. At least a quarter final finish in the CL.
You keep going on about “imaginary requirements” is avoiding relegation imaginary? Is qualifying for the CL league imaginary? Is winning the league imaginary? Are Man Utd an imaginary club playing in an imaginary league and competitions?l
The progress in this case is measured in relation to the other teams. We need to improve more than City to close the gap. A decent progress for me would be quarter finals in the CL and fight for the title to the last 2-3 rounds. Anything less is a failure especially now when we paid big money for two new great players. A real success is not until we won the league.
For me it’s clear that squad depth is becoming more and more imports at as there are no longer many easy games in the PL.
For me it’s clear that squad depth is becoming more and more imports at as there are no longer many easy games in the PL.
80 points, Quarters of CL (unless we draw an incredible team in R16) and a trophy.
He needs to deliver some silverware for me. Could be the league cup but we don't pride ourselves on being runners up, we have to win something.
We also need to get over the mental barrier of winning something. Hoepfully it can propel us to greater success going forward.
He needs to deliver some silverware for me. Could be the league cup but we don't pride ourselves on being runners up, we have to win something.
We also need to get over the mental barrier of winning something. Hoepfully it can propel us to greater success going forward.
Proper title challenge.