Bang on the money here. Reflects mood of many posters as well.
Mitten bang on about Mourinho
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I want odds on what'll happen first: United get a DOF, safe standing is introduced, or the Green Party wins a general election.
But factually incorrect. Under Ferguson post-the season where we sold Ronaldo we broke our own transfer record on spending on players two out of the next three seasons.
He's bang on about the fans and how the club is ran also.
They negotiate too don’t they.
Those same points can be used against DoF too though. New manager doesn't want old managers signings is the exact same as manager not wanting DoFs signings. You use Chelsea as an example and just look how many players they bought and Mourinho clearly never wanted and never played. What's the point of that? Either way it's just signings the manager doesn't want and Mourinho has shown in the past he won't use players he doesn't want even if they are very talented.
Sure it reflects the mood of plenty of people on here but as @Oscie said, it's a myth. Michael Owen pretty much eliminated all doubt when he admitted that we only signed him because Benzema turned us down for Madrid. The whole "value" thing was more about Fergie's issue with agents fees than some grand Glazer conspiracy – it's one of the main reasons why we didn't sign Robben, Lucas Moura or Hazard despite all those transfers looking like sure things.
Good article.
The biggest problem for me is the lack of clear vision and direction from the moment Moyes project went down the drain. It feels like we're changing strategies every year or two. From trying to give time and stability to the person who wasn't worthy of a managerial place (Moyes) to giving a job to LVG and along the way preparing a place for Giggs to step in. Turns out to be the wrong direction again, change the decision and give the job to Mourinho.
Now, with this comes 2 big issues.
Enormous money which needs to be spent to fulfil the different managerial vision, which wouldn't be such a big problem if LVG wasn't unbelievable wasteful in his buying and made it even more difficult to Jose. This team atm is a practically a mix of Jose signings and Fergie's players who still can do the job.
The second issue is not just changing of players but also playing style because we couldn't possibly appoint more different managers in that regard. Although I didn't like Jose pulling out spending card in front of journos, he was right, and his job when he came to United was far bigger than it seemed on the surface. United not only had to change most of the personel but rip almost everything when we talk about playing style.
Only thing I would like for the future, is that club do establish clear direction or vision where it wants to go in terms of this team. Whether that will be DOF, some Board which will get it's saying on club's buying and playing style, some mix of that along with managerial last decision, or something completely else, that's on the club, but we can't change our plans every year or two. Because in the world where the spending power now is in the hand of so many clubs, that particular vision and clear direction of the club can make a world of difference.
The biggest problem for me is the lack of clear vision and direction from the moment Moyes project went down the drain. It feels like we're changing strategies every year or two. From trying to give time and stability to the person who wasn't worthy of a managerial place (Moyes) to giving a job to LVG and along the way preparing a place for Giggs to step in. Turns out to be the wrong direction again, change the decision and give the job to Mourinho.
Now, with this comes 2 big issues.
Enormous money which needs to be spent to fulfil the different managerial vision, which wouldn't be such a big problem if LVG wasn't unbelievable wasteful in his buying and made it even more difficult to Jose. This team atm is a practically a mix of Jose signings and Fergie's players who still can do the job.
The second issue is not just changing of players but also playing style because we couldn't possibly appoint more different managers in that regard. Although I didn't like Jose pulling out spending card in front of journos, he was right, and his job when he came to United was far bigger than it seemed on the surface. United not only had to change most of the personel but rip almost everything when we talk about playing style.
Only thing I would like for the future, is that club do establish clear direction or vision where it wants to go in terms of this team. Whether that will be DOF, some Board which will get it's saying on club's buying and playing style, some mix of that along with managerial last decision, or something completely else, that's on the club, but we can't change our plans every year or two. Because in the world where the spending power now is in the hand of so many clubs, that particular vision and clear direction of the club can make a world of difference.
@Theonas is exactly right. A DoF isn't a miracle worker just because of where he lies in the organizational structure, but it's a way to divest responsibility from the manager and to make him less of a single point of failure. It's ultimately the responsibility of the board and executive management to determine the footballing vision for United and the DoF, coaches, scouting staff, etc. to execute it.
@Pogue Mahone Of course you can hire a bad DoF, but as long as you're looking for people that fit your vision, you should be able to replace as needed. Bayern went from Nerlinger (08-12) to Sammer (12-16) to Salihamidzic (17-) but they're still chugging along just fine. DoFs aren't any more irreplaceable than coaches...if you have a situation where the club has a good coach and a bad DoF, the board is perfectly empowered to change the DoF. The difference with DoFs is that, unless they are spectacularly bad at their jobs, it takes time to really evaluate their performance.
I agree. Unfortunately the game has changed, expecting managers to stay for decades and overlook everything in the club is more romantic than realistic. A few bad results and people start asking for managers to get sacked. We need to adapt to the climate and implement the required changes to make sure that future incoming managers have a platform to perform with at most a few little tweaks, rather than expecting every new manager to come in and change everything, starting from scratch to get the team where they want it.
No matter how good a manager is, expecting them to come into a disjointed squad, with no proper vision, without the players he needs to implement his ideas etc. and expecting him to hit the ground running is wishful thinking at best.
Those points cannot be used against a DoF. A DoF hires a coach, not a manager. Coaches are consulted in transfer dealings (some more than others), but they are hired to coach the team that they're given. They do not have the authority, like a manager does, to churn a squad. If the coach doesn't fancy the player pool he's given, he shouldn't/doesn't take the job.
Ye I assumed as much, who does that for us now? Ed? By some accounts Ed kind of is a DOF for us, only issue is he is a business man, he doesn't have an extensive understanding of football from my knowledge
I don't get how you install a DOF without seriously undermining the present manager's authority. Our issues post Fergie have been down to having the wrong manager, not to wrong set-up. We're actually greatly improved this season on all fronts. Be an odd time to declare nothing works and a need to revamp the whole thing.
Very good article which I found myself agreeing to. The below quote really resonated:
“too many United fans need to lose their sense of entitlement. Expectations should be high -- it's Manchester United -- but no club in the history of world football has dominated consistently.”
Under Mourinho, we have gotten back a sense of pride and expectation. But we have no automatic right to be the best and play the best football.
As we saw several times under SAF and during the 21st evolution of Barcelona, Madrid, Chelsea and Manchester City such lofty achievements require sustained heavy investment, a few years of team development and a heavy dose of alchemy. Only then might you get lucky and reach the promised land.
We’ve seen what happens when a board doesn’t want to be the best at Liverpool and Arsenal. We are fortunate our board shares our desire to be the best. The fans role is to support this evolution.
The moaners can continue moaning but I can’t imagine how that can be any fun!
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They are not DoF. They are Babysitter of Hollywood. They are the link between the players and management, so they can sniff out problems within the team and between players/coaches before it lands in the press. That´s why somebody like Eberl opted to stay in Gladbach, where he´s the undisputed #1. Probably also a reason why Michael Reschke left his position as headscout for VfB Stuttgart. Bayern is still all about Rummenigge and Hoeness.
I don't know what insight Mitten gives -- ever. The guy that is hated on here, Castles, is actually a much better Journalist.
My mistake. I figured the Sporting Directors there did more than that.Ideally a DOF would work in tandem with the manager, similarly to how Ed works with ours now but with more emphasis on the recruitment and footballing side, to make transitions between managers more seamless
You're right we've greatly improved, but the proof is in the pudding. Look at the job Jose has had to do, in fact he's not even finished yet. How do we as a club/fanbase expect any manager to come into a disjointed squad, consisting of players brought in for different styles etc., gifting Mourinho a squad consisting of mostly players he wouldn't prefer and expect him to perform to his best? It's just wishful thinking. The manager isn't the issue here, no matter who is managing us and no matter what his style of play is, without the proper personnel and without proper planning and a platform for him to thrive on, he's going to need time to rip it down and start again and in today's climate where managers are changing so often, is that sustainable?
Look at Pep at City, he's no miracle worker, he showed that last season with a very underwhelming season, but given the planning City have put in, all he had to do was tweak a few things and he's got a squad very close to where he wants it. They gave a very good manager the tools he needs to succeed, I just don't think we're doing that for our managers at the moment, haven't done since SAF has left. Whether or not we've recruited the right managers etc. isn't the issue here.
Very accurate article but lets be honest, The day the Glazers finally sell up cannot be a day too soon!
See that´s exactly the wrong way of looking at. The DOF needs to have the power, not the coach/manager. Say Mourinho loses interest in 12 months, because PSG make him a better offer. Now you have build toward a physical-defensive minded team for three years. Ed "God bless his football knowldge" Woodward does get the best manager available, cause we are Manchester United. Say that guy is Thomas Tuchel, who likes tiki-taka football. What does he do with Lukaku, Fellaini and a bunch of defensive-minded fullbacks that like to cross balls from the halfway line? Another €500M so he can rebuild the squad to his liking? And that´s when especially "average squad" players suffer. They are good at a specific role in a specific system, where they can outplay their "natural" ability. What do you do with Fellaini in a ball-playing defensive midfield? Nothing. He´s useless.
I think the other point here is that the "right manager" is nigh-impossible to find. You'd need someone who fits the club philosophically, someone who can handle the immense responsibilities of a manager, someone who can achieve success quickly to be able to secure his position and someone who'll stay long-term at the club. Finding someone who ticks all the boxes in today's football is more of a pipe dream than anything.
I agree with him. Our transfer strategy is and has been abysmal. Jose does look miserable. And our style of football leaves a lot to be desired.
We could really do with bringing in a few exciting attacking players, letting them off the leash a bit, battering a few opponents, and Jose showing a bit of passion. That'd improve the mood of the fans.
Whatever the case, we can't keep going on the way we are; squandering money left right and center, replacing managers, overhauling the entire team again, rinse and repeat. We need a long term plan.
We could really do with bringing in a few exciting attacking players, letting them off the leash a bit, battering a few opponents, and Jose showing a bit of passion. That'd improve the mood of the fans.
Whatever the case, we can't keep going on the way we are; squandering money left right and center, replacing managers, overhauling the entire team again, rinse and repeat. We need a long term plan.
I agree. I feel that not having someone in some sort of DOF capacity is a viable option, if you intend to have managers for the long term, but the more the game evolves, the shorter managers stay at their clubs.
Yep basically this. No matter how good a manager is or his play style, if he doesn't have the tools he needs to succeed he's going to need to tear everything down and start again, just as Jose did for LVG's work and any other incoming manager will do to Jose's work who follows him. Expecting them to come into a team of players that they would ideally not want to work with, and then trying to implement a style of play those players probably won't thrive in and expecting the manager to hit the ground running and perform to his best instantly is wishful thinking.
I've given up, to be honest.
I think we are destined for a barren spell.
4 years and counting is already long.
I think we are destined for a barren spell.
4 years and counting is already long.
We only really have ourselves to blame tbh. We've spent money that in any other scenario would most likely have us as champions and proper competitors in Europe but no amount of money can make up for poor planning and no vision.I've given up, to be honest.
I think we are destined for a barren spell.
4 years and counting is already long.
Very good article from Mitten. Thanks for sharing the link.
The DoF model seems as risky as the all powerful manager.
What if you hire the wrong type of DoF? What happens if he leaves? Who decides the style or philosophy of the DoF? How can you ensure that person who picks the DoF is a visionary who can detect when certain styles become uncompetitive or spot new ways of playing?
As we’ve seen since SAF left and what’s happened at clubs like Liverpool, it’s very difficult to find the right manager who can deliver requisite levels of success at Old Trafford. Adding further complexity and risk by appointing a DoF doesn’t seem like a silver bullet, so I’m not sure why our club should adopt it.
What if you hire the wrong type of DoF? What happens if he leaves? Who decides the style or philosophy of the DoF? How can you ensure that person who picks the DoF is a visionary who can detect when certain styles become uncompetitive or spot new ways of playing?
As we’ve seen since SAF left and what’s happened at clubs like Liverpool, it’s very difficult to find the right manager who can deliver requisite levels of success at Old Trafford. Adding further complexity and risk by appointing a DoF doesn’t seem like a silver bullet, so I’m not sure why our club should adopt it.
Is it a risk we have to take though? We can't overlook the fact that managers are turned over every few seasons these days.
TBH, I do not understand for one minute why people are defending Mourinho.
He had just won the league with Chelsea in his second spell, it was August, 3 games in, and made a big meal of how there was little investment. He played Guradrado in a game at stamford bridge to prove a point to Abrahomvic, Guadrado went on loan to Juve a few days later. Then the physio incident. It was turmoil from then onwards.
Same things were happening at Real Madrid, Barca were the ones investing in youth and had the Barca legends there, and were making shrewd transfers like Abidal and Mascherano. While Mourinho got his galacticos, he was complaining and making excuses about other things like match officials and barca getting the rub of the green from all corners.
I'm sorry, but I look at the Man utd squad, and I often sit an wonder, what a coward Mourinho actually is for parking the bus against top opposition. The team on paper should be steam rolling 75% of that league. But I guess, when you have a defensive coach/manager, it is the best you can expect, this shower of crap football were watching at the moment. This squad is 10 times better than Moyes or LVG ever had!
Sad to be honest.
can easily see results spiralling out of control.
Confidence in the side is low right now and I don't see any characters.
I've refrained from criticising the manager cause I don't know where we go from here.
There should be enough people at a top football club that have enough understanding of the game to form a coherent strategy and you can chose one, or a small team of them to do that job. It's probably nowhere near as technical or difficult as actually coaching the team, so you're unlikely to have someone there doing a terrible job, unless you put a random guy from Wall Street on there. Much of their job is very akin to football agents (i.e., connections, getting transfers through on time) except they work for the club.
The most important thing is that they have shared goals with the club. You had a manager for over 25 years, and his goals (short or long term) were exactly the same as the goal of the club or their fans, that's why you never had a problem. The situation changes when you enter the wheel-spin of short term managers, who will be signing multi-million players at contract lenghts larger than their own, i.e., they will influence the club for longer than they are there. The goal of a manager who knows he's probably on his last transfer window at that club is likely very different than the goal of his employers.
In the last 30 years Porto had one manager stay for 4 years and another for 3 years. Everyone else stayed less than that. Yet we've been massively successful in most of those 30 years, even in European terms. In my opinion there needs to be higher forces than the whims of managers running a club.
Yep that comment leaps out of the screen at you, not to them though unfortunately.
OK so are we to believe that Mkhitaryan, Matic, Lukaku, Pogba and Lindelof weren't on Mourinho's shortlist?
It seems clear he got every single man he wanted with the exception of Perisic. How is this a problem of a mangled transfer strategy that Mourinho is oblivious to? FWIW I think Pogba, Matic, Lukaku and Lindelof are good purchases too. Its more a matter of how we didn't address the LB and central midfield issue despite being very short in those areas.
It seems clear he got every single man he wanted with the exception of Perisic. How is this a problem of a mangled transfer strategy that Mourinho is oblivious to? FWIW I think Pogba, Matic, Lukaku and Lindelof are good purchases too. Its more a matter of how we didn't address the LB and central midfield issue despite being very short in those areas.
For those of you unfamiliar with the General Manager position in the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL it is the equivalent of what many perceive should be the role for a Director of Football.
With General Managers they are in charge of everything relating to the sports side including talent acquisition and youth development.
It’s extremely rare for a manager/head coach to do both jobs in North America.
With General Managers they are in charge of everything relating to the sports side including talent acquisition and youth development.
It’s extremely rare for a manager/head coach to do both jobs in North America.
The mangled transfer strategy pertains to what Woodward implemented after Fergie retired.
Does this guy know Van Gaal at all? If there's something that guy likes is reinventing the wheel, and leaving good foundations from the youth ranks was his best (and only) chance to appear in United's history books, he's not so delusional as to think he could win the league with the squad he had, best chance was leaving a couple of young players to take credit for years after he's gone by saying "I did my part with that team".
Exactly. Identify the strategy and have a particular person or even better small team to execute it. Inside that strategy pick managers, players, plan your youth development and every aspect related to team success, short and long-term one. Because, if that strategy is coherent (and obviously successfully planned) your long-term planning will start bringing results in the end. The point is, it's much more sustainable in the long run.
I'm the one who is satisfied with Jose and would give him the resources to work with and develop this team further as I think he made significant progress. But, in such unstable environment for managers, I feel that a different strategy is very much needed in the near future.
Why is this anything to do with Woodward? He gets the players that the managers want. Moyes fecked up and had no direction & you can give Woodward some sympathy with it being his first year in the role and all.
Then under LVG he brought in Shaw, Di Maria and Herrera, none on paper were bad transfers and all what LVG wanted. He also brought in Martial and Blind (a good fee for a good utility player at worst, which was much needed after the turnover since SAF).
Then under Mourinho he brought in Bailly, Pogba, Lukaku (all very good transfers) coupled with Lindelof and Mkhitaryan, the latter of which was on the back of a terrific season and came at a decent fee.
Andy Mitten is a cock, and he's up his own arse. He points to a lack of strategy from the board but forgets we've had 3 very different managers since Woody came in charge and each of them had their own style of play and personelle to deploy that style. All Woodward has done is spend in the market to equipt the manager with the players they feel they need. And he's done that for every single one.
I look at our team and see holes in central midfield and left back that weren't properly plugged at the end of August and aren't properly plugged now. I see us having decent enough options at CB, and Lindelof seemed a purchase that could wait. I don't think we properly fixed the problem areas under Mourinho and I think he was wrong to opt for Mkhitaryan over Mane (assuming that's what went down) too.
That's some impressive ramblings put together in a single post. Won't even comment on much of it, but this squad is much better than Moyes or LVG's one precisely because of Mourinho. He is a much better manager.