I'd be pissed if he looked happy. We're the second best team in England, he should have nothing to be happy about, nor should the players. He's a notorious winner, only losers are content with being second best at their job.
Mitten bang on about Mourinho
- Thread starter Ramshock
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
So surely is we are counter attacking you make sure your manager has players, wide who can run with the ball and put in accurate crosses from both sides consistantly, a midfield who can move the ball quickly and a CF who is capable of controlling the ball.
There is also the possibility that they are afraid. They bought a successful United that had a relatively peculiar organization where everything not related to money was in SAF's hands and was tailored for his needs and preferences. Like many posters pointed out, establishing the very popular DOF model isn't as easy as it sounds, particularly when you have a manager in place.
They had a window to re-shuffle the organization and it was during the last 5 years of SAF's tenure, that's when a DOF should have been brought and he should have been under SAF's power until the gaffer's retirement but you can see why they didn't do that, I might think that it was the best idea it's still quite ridiculous to put someone in SAF's way.
Now the club is in a difficult spot, they need to create the organization that will bring stability and cohesion but they can't diminish Mourinho's power without using a lot of diplomacy. If I was Woodward, I would try to poach a top rated academy assistant director and shift Butt to the DOF role.
A team like United shouldn't be counter attacking. We can use counters against specific teams, which require it but we should not be a counter attacking team who can't dominate Burnley.
Being a counter-attacking team doesn't necessarily mean regularly crossing the ball. It's more to do with pace on the break (Rashford, Martial, Lingard, Lukaku) and being able to pick out a pass quickly (Matic, Pogba, Mata).
Do you think Nicky could do that job? I think we have been complacent. That although SAF was going the Good Ship Manchester United would just sail on sweeping everybody out of their way. They have had a nasty shock and it is taking years for us to get back on an even keel.
So why is it not working properly and everyone is moaning we are becoming boring again? The trouble there is that Rashford and Martial both want to play in the same position, so that is only one of them with pace and Rashford's decision make is terrible. Lukaku is fast when he isn't stood sulking and waving his arms around.
I still can't believe people concern themselves with Mourinho smiling or not smiling.
As for the article, honestly it isn't something we didn't already know.
As for the article, honestly it isn't something we didn't already know.
Butt has been described as a good young coach with a big picture mentality, that's good for a DOF, the question is about his ability to network and sell snake oil. The best man is probably Leonardo but he might be a bit too dramatic for United.
That bit about the DOF and how they’d have no say or power when it comes to transfers makes absoulutly no sense to me unless they are being installed in the club to plan for when Jose moves on or is let go.
It would be nice to have a proper plan so that we are actually heading somewhere and even if we do need to replace manager someone is there with the original vision just to hire someone who can follow the same model. Basically what we started under LVG but then threw out the window for the band aid.
It would be nice to have a proper plan so that we are actually heading somewhere and even if we do need to replace manager someone is there with the original vision just to hire someone who can follow the same model. Basically what we started under LVG but then threw out the window for the band aid.
It's not working these last few weeks because Lukaku is horrendously out of form and our defence have made several schoolboy errors. Probably exacerbated by the constant changing of our central defensive players due to injury. Rojo has come back in poor form, Lindelof is still unconvincing and Bailly has been injured for weeks.
The Leicester, Burnley and Bristol City games would all have been wins had it not been for those defensive errors that we'd ironed out earlier this year. Likewise with Lukaku in form we'd probably have scored a couple more as we wouldn't be essentially playing with 10 men.
Overall though we're doing well this season. We're on course for 82 points which is a huge improvement on anything we've attained since Fergie retired. We've coasted through our Champions League group for the first time in years and are favourites to reach the quarter finals and second favourites to win the FA Cup.
People need to relax and stop looking at City. They are in a ridiculous vein of form after spending an absolute fortune on an already very strong squad. They won't be getting 100 points a season for the next 3+ years so that isn't our target. Our target is to get to a 90 point a season level which we're probably one or two players away from, which given where we were when Jose took over is very good progress.
People are far too impatient. A second place finish, QF or better in the CL and a strong showing in the FA Cup would represent good progress. People won't like to hear that though.
7 shots on target to two. 70 % possession. Just because we didn't win doesn't mean we didn't dominate.
7 shots out of how many? That wasn't dominating. Yes we should have won, but we have gone back to being wasteful again.
Though I don't agree with the transfer manipulation by the board & as good as perisic would have been at addressing our weaknesses; recruiting mkhitarayan, perisic & Matic, ibrahimpvic within a year signifies the differences of Jose's ability to help United long term. In a year or two those players will have to be replaced whilst our rivals squad is getting younger without any depreciation of results.
And at the same time we had signed Lukaku, Pogba, Lindelof and Bailly, all below 25.
We had too much youngsters in the attack that we actually need some top senior players there. Signing another youngster while we have the likes of Martial, Rashford and Lingard doesn't make any sense.
50 % of shots on target. Our problem was at the back in this game, not being wasteful. Giving up a goal on every chance they had. It was a freak result. We dominated this game. By every single metric, including the quite simple eyeball test, we dominated this game and should have won. A team can dominate and be wasteful by the way.
By your rationale, City had 18 shots against Newcastle, but only 6 on target. I guess they didn't dominate that game either?
We are Manchester United - one of the biggest clubs in the world: we absolutely cannot, cannot relax.
We should always have the mentality to strive to be the best, even when we're not there yet. By relaxing and giving up we'd turn into Arsenal.
What would Sir Alex want us to do in this situation? I can guarantee it wouldn't be to relax, it would probably be to try and raise our standards.
If we want our players to be mentally strong, then we should be too as fans, which means not wilting under pressure and dropping standards
He’s talking about the fans. You can choose to chill out, or completely lose your shit. That’s entirely up to you. Neither option will have any effect on the players or the club.
I agree with Mitten. Mourinho needs backing.
Every game we've dropped points or lost recently it's been down to unbelievably stupid mistakes, or players pratting around instead of just doing their job, and that is a big concern and annoyance for me. It's not what you would associate with a Mourinho team. It's not what you associate with any team that has the right mentality.
That's to do with more than just poor recruitment. It's a poor and lazy mentality that has been evident all season and has now started having an adverse effect on results.
The other day you STILL had Rashford taking corners. You had Pogba trying a 40 yard shot when he had people in on goal ahead of him if the right ball was played. You had players all scrambling in each other's way instead of having any positional awareness. Zlatan wanting to take 3 people on and have a shot instead of playing s simple pass. Everyone is interested in dicking about or wanting to be the man rather than focusing on working as a unit and being a strong team.
There is still no evidence at all as to what the benefit is of this team being less hard working than EVERY other team in the league.
Either Jose isn't doing enough to stamp the nonsense and lazy attitudes out, or we have a set of players who are just beyond rescue in terms of being able to focus and perform like winners.
All of our recent performances have been an absolute state. Even the games we've managed to somehow win
That's to do with more than just poor recruitment. It's a poor and lazy mentality that has been evident all season and has now started having an adverse effect on results.
The other day you STILL had Rashford taking corners. You had Pogba trying a 40 yard shot when he had people in on goal ahead of him if the right ball was played. You had players all scrambling in each other's way instead of having any positional awareness. Zlatan wanting to take 3 people on and have a shot instead of playing s simple pass. Everyone is interested in dicking about or wanting to be the man rather than focusing on working as a unit and being a strong team.
There is still no evidence at all as to what the benefit is of this team being less hard working than EVERY other team in the league.
Either Jose isn't doing enough to stamp the nonsense and lazy attitudes out, or we have a set of players who are just beyond rescue in terms of being able to focus and perform like winners.
All of our recent performances have been an absolute state. Even the games we've managed to somehow win
We were 6th and are now 2nd
Wrong. Complacency amongst fans will translate to a reduced energy within the stadium. If the fans are too relaxed we won't give the players that extra 1% needed in the biggest games.
For example, I feel that in the match vs City (I was there) the atmosphere wasnt good enough. Whereas for example when we beat Barca 1-0 in '08 at OT, the place was bouncing. Maybe too many of our fans have gone soft...
Perspective is needed. Liverpool wouldnt mind this kind of barren spell
As long as we keep it up. I wouldn't want it to be we are now 6th, we were 2nd. The intensity has to be kept up. That was why United were successful. Never rest on your laurels as other teams will improve, so you have to keep improving as well. Think we as a team and fans lost sight of that a bit.
I see improvement overall but there are definitely issues Jose has to sort out. himself being one.
In my opinion we ended up buying the younger players where we already had young players. As good as lukaku was at Everton - I didn't think we needed a under 25 year striker when we had Rashford & martial especially for 85mil; an older one I can understand. Lindelof came when we had bailly, tuenzebe, TFM around that area alongside the still relatively young age of the rest of our CB's. Only Pogba & one of our CB's we bought as a young player has really filled a significant gap in the squad even shown by the fact that even though lukaku doesn't score the players around him still does. Then on the other hand mkhitarayan filled a role where he is being outshone by mata & Lingard. Again; not a significant gap in our squad.
Anyway I understand the benefit of experienced players; but looking at how Rashford & martial have been treated ever since the introduction of ibrahimpvic & then the slightly older lukaku - there's a difference to jesus sharing games with aguero to our approach. If we had bought perisic - one or even both of martial & Rashford have a significant chance of being singled out of the wings as they did at ST because it shows the managers inability to utilise the type of player at his disposal rather than the players ability to be effective.
If we had a choice to buy perisic, Martial or Rashford this January - we know who he would buy to supply lukaku. If last summer we had the choice to buy lukaku, Martial or Rashford as strikers again we know who he would have bought.
Jose's frustration comes from his inability to build a title winning squad that he himself can manage but that does not mean that the players we have are useless - getting the best out of certain players in our squad in the year & a half he has had would have made the job easier if he was flexible. However he has spent the first year trying to get the best out of ibrahimpvic & this year trying to get the best out of lukaku - this had ended up with us needing more signings all across the pitch (for example we might need a winger on each side on top of needing a fullback on each side to get the best out of a lone striker).
On the other hand - If he had tried to get the best out of martial & Rashford for example by possibly playing the 352, we could have upgraded 2 wingbacks by now, 2/3 midfielders, one defender & one striker in an approach of improving the squad we started with rather than completely replacing everyone to get the best out of Jose himself & the very few type of players he can manage.
We have bought 7 players or so with still significant gaps all across our squad - more gaps than significant starters because Jose wanted to start from the very beginning rather than building on what he had. Pep on the other hand has admittedly a better squad when he came in - yet he utilised his squad by making silva & de bryune in to midfielders players like Delph at LB, stuck with fernandinh0, otamendi, kompany and upgraded on the weaknesses he had left in the squad. All the whilst we need a new RW, Possibly a proper LW, another 2 CM or even 3, maybe another striker to replace ibrahimpvic & another Am to replace mkhitarayan, another fullback on either side all the whilst he has spent 300 mil on things that haven't improved/didn't need improving bar 2players.
Though I don't know much about DOF, this is where they might add some benefit.
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You could write a book on how badly the club has been run leading up to and following Fergie's retirement and it would probably be fairly interesting from a footy but probably also from a business point of view.
Jamie Jackson attempted it but it's fairly badly written (as you'd expect) and doesn't really provide much additional insight beyond what we already know.
Jamie Jackson attempted it but it's fairly badly written (as you'd expect) and doesn't really provide much additional insight beyond what we already know.
Long time lurker, first time poster, 30+ year matchgoer here - albeit not every week.
Agree with most of this article. Mourinho was appointed because the club was in danger of losing touch with the top sides and re-establishing a winning mentality now was more important than the long term picture. I think this was probably right, and Mourinho has achieved some of those aims - we've won 2 trophies, we look like a top 4 side again and for that he deserves credit, our support and financial backing from the board.
However, with Mourinho the question is always "at what cost?" Already there are signs of conflict within the club, the Luke Shaw scenario being one particularly unedifying example. Other than possibly Jesse Lingard - who is not that young any more- there is little or no evidence that our young players are improving under Mourinho (in stark contrast to the dramatic improvement of Sterling, Sane and Stones at City). I may be wrong but I strongly believe that with the right guidance Martial, Rashford and Shaw can become top players. While we have recruited fairly well under Mourinho, the focus has been on the finished article and other than possibly Lindelof there have been no transfers with the future in mind. We cannot outspend City (or Chelsea) but we can out-scout them, but that involves taking a chance on young incomplete talent which thus far Jose has been unwilling to do. This is vital if we are going to have a long term base for the future. And finally the man does not seem committed to the club - not having a permanent home speaks volumes, and I for one take great offence at the blatant flirting with PSG. The club deserves better than that.
Of course if Jose can bring the Premier League back to Old Trafford then much of the above will be forgiven, but at present this seems a long way away. We should back him for now but unless there are improvements in certain areas then the point where we have to go back to a more long term strategy is not all that far away (and yes, there are other options).
Agree with most of this article. Mourinho was appointed because the club was in danger of losing touch with the top sides and re-establishing a winning mentality now was more important than the long term picture. I think this was probably right, and Mourinho has achieved some of those aims - we've won 2 trophies, we look like a top 4 side again and for that he deserves credit, our support and financial backing from the board.
However, with Mourinho the question is always "at what cost?" Already there are signs of conflict within the club, the Luke Shaw scenario being one particularly unedifying example. Other than possibly Jesse Lingard - who is not that young any more- there is little or no evidence that our young players are improving under Mourinho (in stark contrast to the dramatic improvement of Sterling, Sane and Stones at City). I may be wrong but I strongly believe that with the right guidance Martial, Rashford and Shaw can become top players. While we have recruited fairly well under Mourinho, the focus has been on the finished article and other than possibly Lindelof there have been no transfers with the future in mind. We cannot outspend City (or Chelsea) but we can out-scout them, but that involves taking a chance on young incomplete talent which thus far Jose has been unwilling to do. This is vital if we are going to have a long term base for the future. And finally the man does not seem committed to the club - not having a permanent home speaks volumes, and I for one take great offence at the blatant flirting with PSG. The club deserves better than that.
Of course if Jose can bring the Premier League back to Old Trafford then much of the above will be forgiven, but at present this seems a long way away. We should back him for now but unless there are improvements in certain areas then the point where we have to go back to a more long term strategy is not all that far away (and yes, there are other options).
True true true
I don't understand that logic. Over depending on Rashford and Martial while they're still under 22 will always ends in a lot of frustration due to their normal lack of consistency at this age. We have already been over depending on them this season. They're always the key for us to unlock defenses and we always pass the ball to the left side for them. When everything goes well for them we win, but when they have some normal day off we struggle, because we don't have any other top player to take the burden of them.
You can't go on with an attack full of youngsters still developing and ask to win anything. They're both good talents, but clear as day they're not ready to lead the line 100% for us. We need top class players in the attack to hold the responsibility while both of them get a support role away from pressure to develop and benefit. All big teams are doing this. They all have mix of youngsters and senior players in the attack. SAF always had this in his teams as well.
But those 5 games could see them knocked out of every Cup competition, and then they will have to hand back the Quadruple that many have already awarded to them...
A couple more silly draws in the next month and we could find ourselves battling with Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal for a top 4 spot.
We are not guaranteed 2nd or 3rd, especially considering our usual drop in form at this period of the season. Even Matic recently hinted the players are feeling "tired", which is actually scary to hear for a club of our stature.
The thing is we replaced martial & Rashford with someone who is just marginally older & required us to change their own way of playing as well as the whole team.
Getting the best out of Rashford & martial at the age of 22 is no less frustrating than waiting to see lukaku do some damage.
Though I expect us to finish 2nd you are right - we are drawing games left right & centre. Can't guarantee 2nd spot at all
So getting one of the most consistent strikers in the EPL for years and at the age of 24 with years left for him to develop even more is a wrong idea, because we instead of developing the team in general we should prioritise developing 2 youngsters, Great.
Even SAF wouldn't have done that.
So you read that entire article and that’s all that you take away from it?
The thing is that a DOF will decide on a type of football played and the team wont go from a LVG to a Jose overnight.
That's one way of looking at it.
Another is that we are 6 points off 6th and the season hasn't yet finished. On top, our recent games have been poor and are where we've lost point, hence why nobody was complaining when we were winning at the start of the season.
I am worried about the ditch we are in. Don't even have to mention the games where we were equally poor but managed to scrape a win.
If the whole problem is hiring managers of similar style we hardly need a DoF for that do we? We already have a board who decide who to hire, they should be able to choose managers of similar styles if thats all the DoF is going to do.
Then if we are only hiring similar style managers it negates the point of needing a DoF for transfers because they'll want the same types of players anyway.
At least we've survived relegation.