We need it, don't we?
Mobility, athleticism
- Thread starter Bastian
- Start date
We can only seem to either buy mobile donkeys or immobile technicians.
We definitely lack it. We have lots of slow and lightweight players at the back
Maguire - slow
Martinez - slow and lightweight
Shaw - slow and clumsy (at LB's standard)
Bruno, Tielesman, Santos all not fast and are too lightweight
Maguire - slow
Martinez - slow and lightweight
Shaw - slow and clumsy (at LB's standard)
Bruno, Tielesman, Santos all not fast and are too lightweight
We need a coach capable of getting us controlling games. If your tactic is to ball watch and hit with teams with 3-5 pass don’t be surprised when they dominate and you struggle.
Time for some immobile donkeys then.
Been saying it all summer. The current options in midfield still lack balance, speed and strength. At the same time we're trying to play a high press and once an opponent plays through it, we're all at sea, because none of our defenders are particularly quick either. Especially Maguire and Shaw shouldn't be starters anymore in 2026. The fact that we're heading into the season with both most likely locked in for a start in our first game tells you everything you need to know about squad planning and recruitment.
Can't run (Martinez) won't run (Shaw).
If those cloggers are our left side this season, teams will tear that flank asunder.
If those cloggers are our left side this season, teams will tear that flank asunder.
Broken record. They’ve known. They haven’t cared. If they did, they would have done something already. Live with it
This squad is really going to struggle with two games a week.
Who in the data and fitness department keeps allowing us to build a team with so few athletes.
Who in the data and fitness department keeps allowing us to build a team with so few athletes.
Don't forget technique. We still struggle to keep the ball under pressure because we don't have many press resistant players. Our best in that regard are probably Mainoo, Amad, Cunha and Zirkzee, and I don't think anyone would say that's good enough for when we want to be.
So it looks like our best bet is to sit deep and counter attack because we don't have the legs to press and cover the space a high press leaves, and we don't have the technique to control games.
So it looks like our best bet is to sit deep and counter attack because we don't have the legs to press and cover the space a high press leaves, and we don't have the technique to control games.
Agreed
I think our midfield choices are pretty poor still I don’t think we have an ideal pairing.
Fitness and sharpness were what was missing
Yeah. I initially thought "oh, 35m, he's a class player" which was kind of my reaction to us signing Mount, but the length of contract for Tielemans (who is being lauded everywhere as the signing of the season) for a 29 year old immobile midfielder I find concerning.
Santos I like. But I'm not sure he's ready to be the guy who comes in and immediately elevates the whole team, though he did in the previous pre-season matches.
The backline has been a concern for a while and now it's even more so with an ageing Maguire, a returning from serious injury De Ligt, and a frequently injured Martinez, while Shaw's record tells its own story.
Hopefully Carrick retains that magic touch this season, we're going to need it.
You'll probably be told you're overreacting and that everything is fine. Half of our defence has Shaw and Maguire, we've never had a good defence with both of them playing together and more importantly they are well past their best.
The midfield we all knew this but as the prospect of us not signing another mobile CM becomes a reality, people have deluded themselves into believing it's not a big deal. PSG don't have one so we don't or something.
The midfield we all knew this but as the prospect of us not signing another mobile CM becomes a reality, people have deluded themselves into believing it's not a big deal. PSG don't have one so we don't or something.
Mainoo looked by far the most mobile midfielder our there for us, it's telling.
Can’t keep the ball, can’t eat the grass.
The skill set of this midfield is insufficient to win big trophies. We’re missing either another player who is genuinely great in possession like we expect Tielemans to be, or if we want to play the counter attacking game, we’re missing a guy who is hell bent on eating grass and putting in the hard yards.
I’m not buying the argument that it has nothing to do with athleticism. It absolutely does.
The skill set of this midfield is insufficient to win big trophies. We’re missing either another player who is genuinely great in possession like we expect Tielemans to be, or if we want to play the counter attacking game, we’re missing a guy who is hell bent on eating grass and putting in the hard yards.
I’m not buying the argument that it has nothing to do with athleticism. It absolutely does.
Many on this forum argue we don't need a DM, but it's nonsense they are very important in football and we need one.
I think we'll revert back to a mid block this year, high line just won't work with this current team especially if Shaw and Maguire are starting. Even Martinez has never been that quick.
Lammens
Dalot Yoro Heaven Dorgu
Mount Santos
Mbeumo Bruno Rashford
Sesko
Probably our most athletic mobile team?
What we lack is mobile technical players.
Dalot Yoro Heaven Dorgu
Mount Santos
Mbeumo Bruno Rashford
Sesko
Probably our most athletic mobile team?
What we lack is mobile technical players.
I been thinking about this recently.
Outside of Barcelona & Real Madrid :
Can you name the top 7 players that have excellent technique and excellent Athleticism?
I find it very hard to find a player that is excellent at both.
Neves and who else?
Why even try a high line/high press with our current center-backs? Any armchair tactico can see that it won't work. It's one of those flaws in the team, that both Ten Hag and Amorim struggled the most with. If you don't have mobile and/or technically superb central defenders it is increasingly hard to play a proactive, aggressive style these days. You end up with loads of spacing issues and donut formations.
The style of play since January was functional enough. I'd suggest we stick to it and recruit better players to support it properly. Something we haven't done.
We do not try to buy them when they are available though. These teams get them from other teams, we never try.
Many England teams over the last 20+ years have been poor in possession against most opponents. This includes us putting out any combo of fit, fast, strong, technical players who often do a job for their club but don’t in an England shirt. I can only out it down to the laboured coaching and tactics where there is a fear of playing assertively due to the increased risk of mistakes, so they revert to passive, immobile donkeys.
United have been the same in recent years. The players simply don’t do the basics often enough, like show for the ball. Countless times I see a MFer in possession and nobody wants it, or they fail to run into space, or they remain hidden behind an opponent. It’s lazy football and leads to turnovers and pressure, neither of which we’re great at dealing with because we don’t press effectively. Shit tactics for a big club IMO.
And what also pisses me off is the number of players that look like they have plenty left in the tank when they get subbed off or leave the field after the full 90+. I think it was Malcolm McDonald who said players must leave everything in the pitch. I wish out lot did.
I’m aware the likes of Shaw and a few others are downright just not up to PL pace, but they can sure as hell put a shift in for the team/fans while they’re in the pitch.
United have been the same in recent years. The players simply don’t do the basics often enough, like show for the ball. Countless times I see a MFer in possession and nobody wants it, or they fail to run into space, or they remain hidden behind an opponent. It’s lazy football and leads to turnovers and pressure, neither of which we’re great at dealing with because we don’t press effectively. Shit tactics for a big club IMO.
And what also pisses me off is the number of players that look like they have plenty left in the tank when they get subbed off or leave the field after the full 90+. I think it was Malcolm McDonald who said players must leave everything in the pitch. I wish out lot did.
I’m aware the likes of Shaw and a few others are downright just not up to PL pace, but they can sure as hell put a shift in for the team/fans while they’re in the pitch.
Been this way for years, our defence is extremely slow now and is going to be a problem all season. We are always going to end up sitting deep because the defence just doesn’t have the skillset to play any other way.
Badly.
Looks like Maguire and Shaw will still be first choice, so will get ripped apart if we try to play high.
Signed two midfielders and still lacking legs, no matter what combination.
Looks like Maguire and Shaw will still be first choice, so will get ripped apart if we try to play high.
Signed two midfielders and still lacking legs, no matter what combination.
Bang on
We might have to get creative and have Yoro at right back and Dalot at left back because our fullbacks are extremely unathletic.
Ground Duels -
Musah - 0/4 0%
Jashiri - 0/2 0%
Modric - 0/0 0%
Bartegsaghi - 1/1 100%
Ricci - 2/2 100%
AM positions
Loftus-Cheek - 6/10 60%
Cisse - 2/3 - 67%
Us :
Tielemans - 3/5 60%
Andrey Santos - 6/9 67%
Mainoo - 1/2 50%
AM
Bruno - 4/9 44%
So it was the attacking midfielders between midfield and our defence and the striker that were winning ground duels for Milan. The actual midfielders had little success against ours. Musah 0 tackles 0 interceptions, while Jashiri had 0 tackles 2 interceptions to be fair to him. But Santos had 4 tackles 1 interception and Tielemans had 0 tackles 1 interception with much higher ground duel %s
Modric had 1 tackle, Bartegsaghi had 1 interception, Ricci had 1 tackle and Mainoo had 1 interception.
Milan had more of the ball in general so their midfielders played more passes and the two subs they brought on in midfield for the last 14 mins both had 100% success in their few duels so they did better than the starters without the ball in that period.
Maguire had 0 ground duels won and was beaten by Ramos for the first equalizer, Heaven had 1/4 ground duels won 25%. Ramos himself had 2/3 ground duels won 67% so alongside Loftus-Cheek and Cisse he also had plenty of success in our defensive areas. Lisandro only had 1/1 ground duel to deal with but obviously tried to step up incorrectly allowing Loftus-Cheek in behind him for the 4th goal.
Going forwards on the other hand Amad had 4/6 ground duels won 67% which is impressive from him. Dorgu was lower than usual with 2/4 50% and Cunha in our front spot had 2/4 50% also. Mbeumo did well with 2/3 67% after he came on, Rashford 1/2 50% and Lacey 1/3 33%. So we had a couple of our own attacking players who were finding similar success on ground duels like the Milan front 3 - Amad and Mbeumo. Salemakers and Camarda both came on and didnt have any ground duel successes.
Why focusing on ground duels? Well its the most direct stat comparison available of athleticism although you do have to have caught your opponent to compete with them physically. Then theres the direct ball winning numbers I also supplied for the midfielders. Fouls help too - Tielemans and Santos both fouled 2 times, Musah and Jashiri 0 each. Modric and Bartesaghi 0 also. Ricci was fouled 1 time. Mainoo also 0.
Musah - 0/4 0%
Jashiri - 0/2 0%
Modric - 0/0 0%
Bartegsaghi - 1/1 100%
Ricci - 2/2 100%
AM positions
Loftus-Cheek - 6/10 60%
Cisse - 2/3 - 67%
Us :
Tielemans - 3/5 60%
Andrey Santos - 6/9 67%
Mainoo - 1/2 50%
AM
Bruno - 4/9 44%
So it was the attacking midfielders between midfield and our defence and the striker that were winning ground duels for Milan. The actual midfielders had little success against ours. Musah 0 tackles 0 interceptions, while Jashiri had 0 tackles 2 interceptions to be fair to him. But Santos had 4 tackles 1 interception and Tielemans had 0 tackles 1 interception with much higher ground duel %s
Modric had 1 tackle, Bartegsaghi had 1 interception, Ricci had 1 tackle and Mainoo had 1 interception.
Milan had more of the ball in general so their midfielders played more passes and the two subs they brought on in midfield for the last 14 mins both had 100% success in their few duels so they did better than the starters without the ball in that period.
Maguire had 0 ground duels won and was beaten by Ramos for the first equalizer, Heaven had 1/4 ground duels won 25%. Ramos himself had 2/3 ground duels won 67% so alongside Loftus-Cheek and Cisse he also had plenty of success in our defensive areas. Lisandro only had 1/1 ground duel to deal with but obviously tried to step up incorrectly allowing Loftus-Cheek in behind him for the 4th goal.
Going forwards on the other hand Amad had 4/6 ground duels won 67% which is impressive from him. Dorgu was lower than usual with 2/4 50% and Cunha in our front spot had 2/4 50% also. Mbeumo did well with 2/3 67% after he came on, Rashford 1/2 50% and Lacey 1/3 33%. So we had a couple of our own attacking players who were finding similar success on ground duels like the Milan front 3 - Amad and Mbeumo. Salemakers and Camarda both came on and didnt have any ground duel successes.
Why focusing on ground duels? Well its the most direct stat comparison available of athleticism although you do have to have caught your opponent to compete with them physically. Then theres the direct ball winning numbers I also supplied for the midfielders. Fouls help too - Tielemans and Santos both fouled 2 times, Musah and Jashiri 0 each. Modric and Bartesaghi 0 also. Ricci was fouled 1 time. Mainoo also 0.
The club don’t learn. Thick as pig shit the lot of them. Amorim was banging on about this, so you would think they would understand and agree with him. So why we still haven’t addressed this when we’ve nearly rebuilt the midfield is crazy. It’s not just mobility either, but we need players who are elite technically and can control games.
A large section of our online fanbase seem convinced we're building our own PSG-like midfield and we'll be so technically superior to everyone else that our lack of pace and athleticism won't matter because we'll keep the ball off them. They're in for a rude awakening when the competitive games start and the intensity is high and teams are hitting us in transition. They've been fooled by some nice moves put together in early pre season games which are played at walking pace in comparison to real games.
One issue is it's both the midfield and defence being slow. If it was one or the other it might not be so bad. Our defence is not suited to pushing high up the pitch, watching Maguire and Martinez get done on the half way line for their 2nd half goal is exactly what you should expect to see happen every time we play a high line.
The other issue we might run into this season in the incongruence with how our midfield want to play vs the strengths of the rest of the team. You can convince yourselves Santos and Tielemans will make us a possession team, but when the 4 in front of them is Bruno-Mbeumo-Cunha-Sesko turning over the ball for fun, suddenly you have to be very good out of possession because you'll be defending transitions due to all the losses of possession. Likewise the technical level of the defence and goalkeeper in terms of playing out from the back is questionable, outside of Martinez. The attackers were already far more suited to counter attacks, and we've added Rashford to that who's another player who will dictate that you basically have to be a counter attacking side to get any use out of him.
There is still time in the window to get an athletic midfielder in and a top left back, but I think we're too cheap to do so. I think we need a complete rebuild of the back 4 towards players in their prime who have the physical qualities to play a high line, and quality attacking full backs who can contribute in the final third. But a lot of this will have to wait till next summer.
One issue is it's both the midfield and defence being slow. If it was one or the other it might not be so bad. Our defence is not suited to pushing high up the pitch, watching Maguire and Martinez get done on the half way line for their 2nd half goal is exactly what you should expect to see happen every time we play a high line.
The other issue we might run into this season in the incongruence with how our midfield want to play vs the strengths of the rest of the team. You can convince yourselves Santos and Tielemans will make us a possession team, but when the 4 in front of them is Bruno-Mbeumo-Cunha-Sesko turning over the ball for fun, suddenly you have to be very good out of possession because you'll be defending transitions due to all the losses of possession. Likewise the technical level of the defence and goalkeeper in terms of playing out from the back is questionable, outside of Martinez. The attackers were already far more suited to counter attacks, and we've added Rashford to that who's another player who will dictate that you basically have to be a counter attacking side to get any use out of him.
There is still time in the window to get an athletic midfielder in and a top left back, but I think we're too cheap to do so. I think we need a complete rebuild of the back 4 towards players in their prime who have the physical qualities to play a high line, and quality attacking full backs who can contribute in the final third. But a lot of this will have to wait till next summer.
Preseason things, better to know now that it won't work with these blend of defenders, can't keep changing managers and expecting something different when we over rely on Maguire, Shaw, and Martinez to run back.
this is so trueI prefer this to McFred at least
I mean it’s been 7 years of trotting out Maguire still and then we have a declining Shaw and an injury prone 5’9 guy next to him.
It’s going to be tough to consistently dominate anything when the club is happy with that as a starting backline
It’s going to be tough to consistently dominate anything when the club is happy with that as a starting backline
Whether it's at fullback or central midfield we absolutely must add some athleticism this window.
That's what the pound shop had in stock
If they have more possession then we have more chances to do ground duels.
Where's the we don't need new signings crew today?
Our off the ball pressing as a team is none existent. Especially around our box where we are just too passive. Even if we had quicker more physical players we'd struggle to win back the ball vs a team passing it at a high level. Being compact off the ball isn't enough.