Mobility, athleticism
- Thread starter Bastian
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Maguire was all over the pitch 2nd half
I think you’re confusing athleticism with pace
It's actually kind of surprising that we are back here. It felt that one of the few things that got fixed last season was the fact that we didn't get bullied by everyone. Watching the extended replay of the game just now it feels like the old problems are back, we are too late most of the time because we lack pace and the reaction time required to get to the ball first.
The only one confusing anything was Maguire when he was marking his own teammate instead of the Hull city defender on the 1st goal. There's a reason Tuchel dropped him. He's just not good/atheltic enough to play at a top 4 side.
I suspect that part of Carrick’s approach to winning the hearts and minds of the squad last season was making concessions on the training intensity.
Dialing it back up is easier said than done. It’s one of the few things I hoped Amorim would see all the way through. This just isn’t an athletic bunch.
Dialing it back up is easier said than done. It’s one of the few things I hoped Amorim would see all the way through. This just isn’t an athletic bunch.
- None of our experienced CB’s are tall and and fast.
- None of our current CM’s are tall and fast.
- Only one of our starting fullbacks is tall and fast - Every other back up options struggles on that front.
Well we have him for this season. He’s not the reason we lost today. And you’re still confusing “athletic” in my opinion. All footballers are athletes. Some are quicker than others. Some are stronger. Some are more mobile. But they are still athletes.
You think Amad and Mount are less athletic than Bruno and Mbeumo?
And while I take issue with your point which suggests african teams as not technical but just about power, pace, and strength (plenty african technicians in the league), I agree with the wider point that we have enough athletes in the squad to compete - if they play with the right intensity, especially with the addition of Baleba.
Yoro is tall and fast.
Agility? Acceleration? Odd lists of players.
I’m assuming you missed the “experienced” part
Or maybe you consider our 20 year old CB experienced
I think this must be the only reason behind him giving Dorgu the long run at lw, the lack of athleticism in the team clearly an area they must be concerned about.
Also justifies the baleba signing.. this team playing cant handle counters. Hopeless at covering ground, seemed like we were still in pre season mode.
Concerning its a trmplate every oppo will use, use wingbacks or overload the wing to spread the 2 CMs leaving big holes, and eager powerful runner at CF
Also justifies the baleba signing.. this team playing cant handle counters. Hopeless at covering ground, seemed like we were still in pre season mode.
Concerning its a trmplate every oppo will use, use wingbacks or overload the wing to spread the 2 CMs leaving big holes, and eager powerful runner at CF
Yoro is rubbish in the air.. heaven is not great, licha has height disadvantage and maguire usually good at defending crosses was arguably at fault for both goals.
I missed that, yea. We are in a situation of having older cbs not good enough, and young cbs not experienced enough. I would let the young ones get experience.
Maguire is so clumsy that he fecks up our other defenders.
Way too soft and way too sluggish. Starting to doubt the Tielemans- Santos partnership after one game .
Hope we go someone with height and aerially dominant at left back
Hope we go someone with height and aerially dominant at left back
Out of all the positions in the pitch fullback feels to me the place where height and aerial dominance matters the least. I'd prefer to have it anywhere else
The lack of it is worrying with likely no Baleba until late September so gonna be tough first month. Starting to already look like it should have been 2 athletic CM's and Santos/Tielemans not both
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Just seen the highlights of the Brentford Spurs game. Sangare would have been a much better signing than any of the three midfielders we've signed on that evidence. Our transfer strategy remains lightyears behind fecking Brentford's.
Well I'll give you he's not the only reason we lost today & I can't argue against the fact that we have him this year.
I think this whole thread is about calling out how we don't have high standards on athelticism and it's been a thorn in our recruitment in the past. Each position has a combination of atheltic requirements which is a mix speed, agility, power, stamina. However you want to draw it out, Maguire's at the bottom of that, except he's a strong slabhead.
It definitely helps at full back defending your back post when isolated on a cross.
But we're compensate FC. Our first choice CB is 5ft 8 so the fans want to compensate for that by projecting the need for aerial dominance onto the full back instead of questioning why our CB doesn't have the basic prerequisite of being aerially strong.
And then we have two kids who truthfully should have spent a couple of years out on loan to play every week and learn how to defend in high level football.
They even signed Callum Wilson to provide some cover for Igor Thiago too.
I thought all these posts about our immobility, lack of speed and no overlapping flank play were after yesterdays match but just realized lot of comments were actually well before the match.
So when most of us could see the obvious glaring faults, why cant our management act accordingly rather slowing it down further. Early days but Brentford's Sangare looks like a profile we need who has good speed (wish we listened to Vivell here rather focusing on EPL players)
Hope Baleba could make some difference and hoping we can pick at least one FB late in the window who can stretch the defenses.
It's bleak after yesterday, but this team is capable of winning more matches than last year if they get their attitude and application right.
So when most of us could see the obvious glaring faults, why cant our management act accordingly rather slowing it down further. Early days but Brentford's Sangare looks like a profile we need who has good speed (wish we listened to Vivell here rather focusing on EPL players)
Hope Baleba could make some difference and hoping we can pick at least one FB late in the window who can stretch the defenses.
It's bleak after yesterday, but this team is capable of winning more matches than last year if they get their attitude and application right.
Is it okay to say that I like Arsenal's CB type fullbacks?
I once though ait nouri would be great for Man City, but I'd pick Lewis over him because of his capacity to influence the game more than just overlapping a winger.
Yoro- Maguire-Martinez-Heaven
Maybe it's against our traditions to play that way, but when you see players like Caliaflori making crosses as a LB whilst being a CB you do wonder what the point of being a Traditional fullback is.
I once though ait nouri would be great for Man City, but I'd pick Lewis over him because of his capacity to influence the game more than just overlapping a winger.
Too much is made of this. Tielemans only joined pre season late. The majority of any hard running is done by then.
He himself shouldn't need a full pre season of hard running either. He's only had 4 weeks off since the world cup.
If a player was out mid season with a 4 week injury would we say they need to repeat a pre season training schedule?
Fitness won't be an issue. Sharpness yes bu that comes with games.
Aggression is our issue. Too many players lack it. No point being fit and athletic if you don't have the aggression to apply it.
Are there currently many teams who use a lot of fullback overlap?
We've used CB's at fullback plenty over the years. 07/08 maybe our best team yet with Brown at RB. Was definitely his best personal season.
CB at a big club requires a big personality. I don't think Wes Brown for instance ever had that. Didn't have that calm, seniority about him.
So if you've got a young CB, who isn't ready for the role but also happens to be quick and a good ball carrier, try him at fullback.
I'd absolutely give Yoro a game at RB.
Twin that with Dorgu at left back and all of a sudden the athleticism of the backline shoots up. Although I'd also say the on the ball composure in our own half would reduce.
I can't see Dorgu getting games at leftback - Carrick's fullbacks are heavily involved in deep buildup and although Dorgu is undoubtedly an above average Premier League athlete, he's not great technically.
I know that a lot is being made of our sluggish midfield duo and it's obviously true that any combination of Santos/Mainoo/Tielemans is going to be lacking in physicality (Tielemans, in particular, is dreadful out of possession and a complete passenger in defensive transition), but the real problem yesterday was set pieces. In the the Premier League in 2026 you need to be good at set pieces. Yesterday, we were abysmal at them. I'm convinced we would have won that game (and certainly would not have lost it) if we'd even been 'average' at set pieces. I'm worried about the out of possession strategy and a lot of other things, but it all paled in comparison to set pieces yesterday.
Dorgu at left back needs to have Martinez at LCB (which is fine as he'll be a starter when fit anyway). But you do have to over compensate a bit there.
Just really don't like our defensive group. The most rounded/best back 4 player we have is probably Dalot, and he has lots of issues with consistency obviously.
Why not Heaven at left back then? He should be good enough with the ball given he came through as a midfielder.
Yeah, it's a poor group, overall. The CBs look really problematic. Maguire is pretty close to finished and is really playing like it, Martinez is way below the required physical level at this stage, De Ligt can't get fit and the youngsters don't look ready.
I guess that the defence will be the focus of our next big overhaul, presumably next summer - in the meantime, we desperately need De Ligt to get fit and one of Heaven/Yoro to make a very big step forward in their development.
The lack of mobility (I'm thinking a combination of pace/accelaration/stamina) is major issue for us (and has been for a while). Out of possession, we can't press properly, because our backline is too slow to push up and the midfielders can't cover the space required. In possession, our lack of pace blunts our attacks.
I know many on here believe that Heaven and Yoro are rapid (and they're obviously quick compared to Maguire and Licha who might be the slowest CB's in the Prem), but I've seen them beaten for pace numerous times. They're probablt above average but none of them are Van Dijk-fast (in his prime) which is what we need if we want to play a high line. De Ligt is average I would say.
Our FB's are a mixed bag. Maz has below average pace for an FB and Shaw has lost all his pace and stamina. Dalot and Dorgu are very quick but neither have the technique or intelligence to put their pace to use. This leaves us both vulnerable again pacey wingers and ineffecient attacking from wider areas.
Our midfield is the most sluggish I've ever seen. As good as he is technically, Mainoo is very slow and has poor stamina. Tielemans is even slower. Santos might be a little quicker but still below average (especially because he looks visibly heavier than when he played in Brazil). Mount is fairly quick but never available. Bruno has average pace but great stamina. Baleba will add some mobility but he can't make up for the rest of the team.
One of the reasons we're poor at creating chances outside counter attacks is because we don't have attackers who can beat a man regularly. Obviously there's more to this than pace but it's an important ingredient. Rashford is still quick but he has lost a step or two and has other issues. Amad can beat a man with his accelaration but his top speed is nothing special. Sesko has pace but lacks accelaration. Zirkzee is slow. Cunha isn't quick. Mbeumo has decent pace but still can't beat a man. Lacey is slow for PL winger.
I know many on here believe that Heaven and Yoro are rapid (and they're obviously quick compared to Maguire and Licha who might be the slowest CB's in the Prem), but I've seen them beaten for pace numerous times. They're probablt above average but none of them are Van Dijk-fast (in his prime) which is what we need if we want to play a high line. De Ligt is average I would say.
Our FB's are a mixed bag. Maz has below average pace for an FB and Shaw has lost all his pace and stamina. Dalot and Dorgu are very quick but neither have the technique or intelligence to put their pace to use. This leaves us both vulnerable again pacey wingers and ineffecient attacking from wider areas.
Our midfield is the most sluggish I've ever seen. As good as he is technically, Mainoo is very slow and has poor stamina. Tielemans is even slower. Santos might be a little quicker but still below average (especially because he looks visibly heavier than when he played in Brazil). Mount is fairly quick but never available. Bruno has average pace but great stamina. Baleba will add some mobility but he can't make up for the rest of the team.
One of the reasons we're poor at creating chances outside counter attacks is because we don't have attackers who can beat a man regularly. Obviously there's more to this than pace but it's an important ingredient. Rashford is still quick but he has lost a step or two and has other issues. Amad can beat a man with his accelaration but his top speed is nothing special. Sesko has pace but lacks accelaration. Zirkzee is slow. Cunha isn't quick. Mbeumo has decent pace but still can't beat a man. Lacey is slow for PL winger.
If Carrick didn't rate Dorgu technically there's no way he'd play him LW or as we've seen at times almost as a 10.
I think it's the simple fact that under Carrick Shaw has always been available. So he gets the nod. Especially at one game per week.
I don't think Heaven is quick or agile enough for fullback personally.
Not saying he'd be a disaster there but I'd prefer Dorgu to get that chance before him
True, but then you have some Matas out there whose athleticism is teeny weeny.
Maguire is athletic in the way that he is built like a tank, very strong, decent jump, rarely injured, seems to have good stamina, but his agility and speed are well below what is expected of a modern CB. I doubt there are many, if any, slower CBs in the league (maybe Lindelof...)
I am guessing that was the intention but I strongly suspect we are going to be talking about how we fix our midfield again. We will likely need another centre forward and wide attacker. This idea of fixing one area of the pitch at a time is very ordered but feels unrealistic
In my opinion (no stats to hand), Martinez is slower
This I don't understand. Hull, Ipswich, Brentford. All three teams really for opening weekend. Fully fit. Pressing relentless, doing the hard running, and putting the opposition under constant pressure.
Utd and Spurs weren't ready? What the excuse?
The buck stops with the manager and the coaching staff.
Just look at the current CL trophy holders PSG. Ridiculously fit and can pressure relentlessly. That's the standard you need to aim for.
Really? I'd say he's much faster...
According to AI you’re right
Lack of strength and athketicm been problem for so many years....as it was yesterday....yet majority of fans here slating potential signing of baleba all summer.
Opening game, some unfit players, promoted side...not making excuses as we were dreadful.....But
Potentially if we make signing i wanted over hall....our best 11 is lammens, balde, martinez, deligt, dalot, baleba, mainoo, fernandes cunha, mbuemo, sesko.
Only 3 of that side started in there true positions...baleba adds so much ground coverage, may still not be pace through middle but lots more strength and physicality.
ALso hope if balde comes, his talent on ball and pace, martinez on ball, baleba and mainoos ball carrying opens more up as i think our lack of tempo and ball progression evident again and breaking lines passing with santos/tielmans wont work without improvent of tempo.
yesterday was unacceptable and sobering to fans talking about us winning league after last seasons run and couple of decent signings....we arent....but bar arsenal most teams dont look great and there us for me cause for optimism we arent too far away from a good side...if things click..balde/baleba could be fantastic additions
Opening game, some unfit players, promoted side...not making excuses as we were dreadful.....But
Potentially if we make signing i wanted over hall....our best 11 is lammens, balde, martinez, deligt, dalot, baleba, mainoo, fernandes cunha, mbuemo, sesko.
Only 3 of that side started in there true positions...baleba adds so much ground coverage, may still not be pace through middle but lots more strength and physicality.
ALso hope if balde comes, his talent on ball and pace, martinez on ball, baleba and mainoos ball carrying opens more up as i think our lack of tempo and ball progression evident again and breaking lines passing with santos/tielmans wont work without improvent of tempo.
yesterday was unacceptable and sobering to fans talking about us winning league after last seasons run and couple of decent signings....we arent....but bar arsenal most teams dont look great and there us for me cause for optimism we arent too far away from a good side...if things click..balde/baleba could be fantastic additions
Yeah look at Arsenal loaning out Saliba for a couple of seasons, we should have done something similar with Heaven maybe Yoro too. Brought his game on to a different level in terms of athleticism and agility.