Mobility, athleticism

golden_blunder said:
According to AI you’re right
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This is the way!

Great discussion btw :lol: I think we both nailed this one. Posts of the year, for sure?

I think the issue at the back is quite alarming though. We have two young centre backs, but none of them have any great physical traits - Heaven less so than Yoro. Mazraoui is a fairly slow fullback. Shaw lacks the legs and is too slow these days. Martinez is, contrary to your conviction, quite quick on the first 10 yards, but he lacks recovery pace. Maguire lacks recovery pace and acceleration. De Ligt lacks acceleration and only has OK recovery pace. Dalot is the only one who has good speed, and even then he's no rocket.

This basically means that no matter the midfield we put on, there is too much space for them to cover because our backline needs to sit that big lower than what you'd want.
 
dinostar77 said:
This I don't understand. Hull, Ipswich, Brentford. All three teams really for opening weekend. Fully fit. Pressing relentless, doing the hard running, and putting the opposition under constant pressure.

Utd and Spurs weren't ready? What the excuse?

The buck stops with the manager and the coaching staff.

Just look at the current CL trophy holders PSG. Ridiculously fit and can pressure relentlessly. That's the standard you need to aim for.
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We have not been ready or fit enough for years. I was hoping new Carrington improves that. Also mentally we dont seem ready for these kind of games
 
Overhaul FC said:
Brentford know what they're doing. Signed Sangare who everyone will be chasing for 80m next season. They're also in talks to sign El Hadji Malick Diouf from West Ham for £40m.

Two seriously mobile and athletic players. If we had our heads screwed on we'd approach West Ham today before they sign him for LB.
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He would’ve been my choice for LB I’ve never seen someone whip in inch perfect crosses since beckham was around.

He’s got a wand of a left foot but he’s always overlooked as an option.
 
dannyrhinos89 said:
He would’ve been my choice for LB I’ve never seen someone whip in inch perfect crosses since beckham was around.

He’s got a wand of a left foot but he’s always overlooked as an option.
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Considered by many to be quite vulnerable defensively though?
 
Baleba and if it happens Balde will help with the mobility and athleism. It will be a start.

I would also like us to have a few nasty players in the team. The ones who hate defeat, like its a personal insult to their mother or something.

I'd much prefer Utd to be the most pressing, most physical, hardest team to come up against in PL. I don't think we are anywhere near that though. Nor is that in the plan it seems.
 
Rossa said:
This is the way!

Great discussion btw :lol: I think we both nailed this one. Posts of the year, for sure?

I think the issue at the back is quite alarming though. We have two young centre backs, but none of them have any great physical traits - Heaven less so than Yoro. Mazraoui is a fairly slow fullback. Shaw lacks the legs and is too slow these days. Martinez is, contrary to your conviction, quite quick on the first 10 yards, but he lacks recovery pace. Maguire lacks recovery pace and acceleration. De Ligt lacks acceleration and only has OK recovery pace. Dalot is the only one who has good speed, and even then he's no rocket.

This basically means that no matter the midfield we put on, there is too much space for them to cover because our backline needs to sit that big lower than what you'd want.
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Exactly, but everyone became obsessed with sticking it all on the midfield. And clearly Wilcox thought the same.
Throw in the fact most of our defenders are injury prone and Yoro and heaven are rookies and the situation looks even worse.

Throwing everything financially at our midfield this season whilst ignoring the defence I genuinely can’t fathom.
We should have kept Casemiro, just brought in Tielemans and perhaps looked at a less costly younger signing than Santos and picked up someone like Kessie on a free.

Just fecking bonkers squad management if you ask me. But why should we ever expect anything better, been this way for 14 years apart from like two seasons.
 
Ludens the Red said:
Exactly, but everyone became obsessed with sticking it all on the midfield. And clearly Wilcox thought the same.
Throw in the fact most of our defenders are injury prone and Yoro and heaven are rookies and the situation looks even worse.

Throwing everything financially at our midfield this season whilst ignoring the defence I genuinely can’t fathom.
We should have kept Casemiro, just brought in Tielemans and perhaps looked at a less costly younger signing than Santos and picked up someone like Kessie on a free.

Just fecking bonkers squad management if you ask me. But why should we ever expect anything better, been this way for 14 years apart from like two seasons.
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However good the points on defence, the midfield investment is hardly bonkers. We only had three to begin with, Ugarte is effectively out for the season and IMO it would have been folly to renew Casemiro - we're lucky he kept up as well as he did, for as long as he did. We're plugging holes here, not just upgrading.

We simply have more work to do than can be fixed in this window, and with the lack of investment in D this season I'd be surprised if the defence situation doesn't look worse after this season than it does now. It's not beyond reasonable possibility that we'll need to upgrade the starters at every single position in that area of the squad. Shaw and Maguire will be a year older and in decline, Martinez and De Ligt could well be injury goners, Heaven and Yoro might not take the next step and Dalot and Mazraoui could - and probably will - remain no more than what they currently are, which certainly isn't a credible regular starter on a top team.
 
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justsomebloke said:
However good the points on defence, the midfield investment is hardly bonkers. We only had three to begin with, Ugarte is effectively out for the season and IMO it would have been folly to renew Casemiro - we're lucky he kept up as well as he did, for as long as he did.
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I can't believe people are even arguing against the midfield investment. It was all anyone went on about all summer! Our only CMs would have been Ugarte, Mainoo and Mount, and two of those are already injured!

Our CB options could obviously be better, but we have 5 to choose from. The problem is that Maguire should obviously be 5th choice and our best pairing on paper is MDL and Martinez, who have turned out to be injury prone.

We need one of Yoro or Heaven to have a breakthrough season, and preferably not playing alongside Maguire.
 
Ludens the Red said:
Exactly, but everyone became obsessed with sticking it all on the midfield. And clearly Wilcox thought the same.
Throw in the fact most of our defenders are injury prone and Yoro and heaven are rookies and the situation looks even worse.

Throwing everything financially at our midfield this season whilst ignoring the defence I genuinely can’t fathom.
We should have kept Casemiro, just brought in Tielemans and perhaps looked at a less costly younger signing than Santos and picked up someone like Kessie on a free.

Just fecking bonkers squad management if you ask me. But why should we ever expect anything better, been this way for 14 years apart from like two seasons.
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I think the current midfield may be fine, but we need a much more athletic CB. We don't necessarily need two, but we desperately need one, and that needs to be starter material.

Maguire is still a good player; put him in a team that wants to sit back, and he can still be class, but his mobility issues force us to play a lower line. The defense we put out against Hull has to be one of the slowest in the league - Maguire-Heaven, Mazraoui-Shaw - none of them have recovery pace.
 
justsomebloke said:
However good the points on defence, the midfield investment is hardly bonkers. We only had three to begin with, Ugarte is effectively out for the season and IMO it would have been folly to renew Casemiro - we're lucky he kept up as well as he did, for as long as he did. We're plugging holes here, not just upgrading.

We simply have more work to do than can be fixed in this window, and with the lack of investment in D this season I'd be surprised if the defence situation doesn't look worse after this season than it does now. It's not beyond reasonable possibility that we'll need to upgrade the starters at every single position in that area of the squad. Shaw and Maguire will be a year older and in decline, Martinez and De Ligt could well be injury goners, Heaven and Yoro might not take the next step and Dalot and Mazraoui could - and probably will - remain no more than what they currently are, which certainly isn't a credible regular starter on a top team.
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Now now, let’s not misquote me. The ignoring the defence is the bonkers part. Casemiro is better than Santos and Baleba and brings a lot with set pieces which is massive. A one year deal on a reduced salary I don’t think would have been out of the question.

I get the point about defensive numbers (however that’s negated by the fact De Ligt and Martinez will be injured most of the season)

You have to be a bit shrewder if you know you have lots of holes to fill. Free transfers, loan deals, just to sure up numbers. Like I don’t know why we felt the need to sign Santos for 50 million if we’d already planned on Tielemans and Baleba.
Spending that money on a 4th choice central midfielder when you’re churning out that diarrhoea of a defence is what is bonkers to me.
 
Ludens the Red said:
Now now, let’s not misquote me. The ignoring the defence is the bonkers part. Casemiro is better than Santos and Baleba and brings a lot with set pieces which is massive. A one year deal on a reduced salary I don’t think would have been out of the question.

I get the point about defensive numbers (however that’s negated by the fact De Ligt and Martinez will be injured most of the season)

You have to be a bit shrewder if you know you have lots of holes to fill. Free transfers, loan deals, just to sure up numbers. Like I don’t know why we felt the need to sign Santos for 50 million if we’d already planned on Tielemans and Baleba.
Spending that money on a 4th choice central midfielder when you’re churning out that diarrhoea of a defence is what is bonkers to me.
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I'm happy to adjust my reading of your points according to your clarifications, but I don't think I misquoted you.

I get your point about making greater use of loans and shorter-term, lower cost veteran signings to plug holes. I've been thinking that too. And as I omitted to mention, it's not just in midfield where we have gaps to plug - we have one at left back too. But I suppose there's a tradeoff - you end up spending resources to postpone problems rather than solve them. Baleba and Santos are not cheap, but if they are durable major pieces they're not expensive either, by that standard. There's a balance to be struck there, and debatable where you find the right point.

Also, the gamble on defence cuts both ways, of course. Shaw and Maguire could have stellar twilight campaigns, Heaven and/or Yoro could take the next step, Martinez and De Ligt could return from injury to have strong and healthy seasons. It's even possible that Dalot or Mazraoui could step up. Most likely, some bets will come in, some won't. Although given the odds, there'll probably be more of the latter than the former.

All things considered, I think the approach is viable, but I'll be concerned if LB is not addressed before the deadline.
 
Rossa said:
This is the way!

Great discussion btw :lol: I think we both nailed this one. Posts of the year, for sure?

I think the issue at the back is quite alarming though. We have two young centre backs, but none of them have any great physical traits - Heaven less so than Yoro. Mazraoui is a fairly slow fullback. Shaw lacks the legs and is too slow these days. Martinez is, contrary to your conviction, quite quick on the first 10 yards, but he lacks recovery pace. Maguire lacks recovery pace and acceleration. De Ligt lacks acceleration and only has OK recovery pace. Dalot is the only one who has good speed, and even then he's no rocket.

This basically means that no matter the midfield we put on, there is too much space for them to cover because our backline needs to sit that big lower than what you'd want.
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That’s why I wanted Lacroix, but I knew that we wouldn’t as this was the year of the midfield rebuild.
 
We forgot the biggest issue, mentality. We look so fragile and weak, not ready to fight and dominate.
 
justsomebloke said:
I'm happy to adjust my reading of your points according to your clarifications, but I don't think I misquoted you.

I get your point about making greater use of loans and shorter-term, lower cost veteran signings to plug holes. I've been thinking that too. And as I omitted to mention, it's not just in midfield where we have gaps to plug - we have one at left back too. But I suppose there's a tradeoff - you end up spending resources to postpone problems rather than solve them. Baleba and Santos are not cheap, but if they are durable major pieces they're not expensive either, by that standard. There's a balance to be struck there, and debatable where you find the right point.

Also, the gamble on defence cuts both ways, of course. Shaw and Maguire could have stellar twilight campaigns, Heaven and/or Yoro could take the next step, Martinez and De Ligt could return from injury to have strong and healthy seasons. It's even possible that Dalot or Mazraoui could step up. Most likely, some bets will come in, some won't. Although given the odds, there'll probably be more of the latter than the former.

All things considered, I think the approach is viable, but I'll be concerned if LB is not addressed before the deadline.
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:lol: Now you’re just being silly.
 
Ludens the Red said:
Now now, let’s not misquote me. The ignoring the defence is the bonkers part. Casemiro is better than Santos and Baleba and brings a lot with set pieces which is massive. A one year deal on a reduced salary I don’t think would have been out of the question.

I get the point about defensive numbers (however that’s negated by the fact De Ligt and Martinez will be injured most of the season)

You have to be a bit shrewder if you know you have lots of holes to fill. Free transfers, loan deals, just to sure up numbers. Like I don’t know why we felt the need to sign Santos for 50 million if we’d already planned on Tielemans and Baleba.
Spending that money on a 4th choice central midfielder when you’re churning out that diarrhoea of a defence is what is bonkers to me.
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Well apart from Senesi who seemingly wanted to stay near London and Rudiger extended deal at Madrid there wasn't much else on free agents. Now you could argue we should have at least looked at Araujo before scousers did. Yes the likes of Diomande at £39m made sense, however you get the impression there was little priority on signing an athletic mobile CB this summer.
 
I really wish at least one of Deligt and Martinez will be available to add some bite to the defence.

Balde(if happens) and Baleba could add some pace, If we get Balde on loan deal, I wish we sell Zirkzee and bring in someone like Sarr who got excellent pace and adds more width.

Its a pity we are adding so many players since SAF retired, they need to be replaced after an year.
 
Bobby_2024 said:
Martinez
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He won't change much here. We need better duelers across the pitch and more pace and power. But predominantly at LCB and LB.

And then on the flip side an attacker who can actually take on players and win his duels.
 
Reposting this from the Tielemans thread

This thread isnt just about central midfielders, while the list is. But there is plenty of talk about our midfield and after 1 league game the list should put into perspective where our midfield really are in terms of speed

Theres been a lot of talk about Tielemans' and Andrey Santos' speed in the past week or two. And while its true that they're actually our slowest players so far other than Lammens, with 28.4 km/h from Tielemans and 27.8 from Santos, here are the CMs from other premier league teams in comparison from the opening day, putting it into context :

Joe Willock 33.9 km/h
Enzo Le Fee 33.7 km/h
Dom Szoboszlai 33.5 km/h
Ryan Gravenberch 33.4 km/h
Elliot Stroud 33.1 km/h
Habib Diarra 32.9 km/h
Phil Foden 32.9 km/h
Alex Scott 32.7 km/h
Lewis Cook 32.7 km/h
Noah Sadiki 32.7 km/h
Ethan Ampadu 32. 6 km/h
Sandro Tonali 32.6 km/h
Joshua King 32 km/h
Xaver Schlager 31.9 km/h
Brendan Aaronson 31.7 km/h
Alex Iwobi 31.7 km/h
Anton Stach 31.6 km/h
Frank Onyeka 31.6 km/h
Martin Odegaard 31.6 km/h
Rodrigo Bentancur 31.5 km/h
Matt Crooks 31.4 km/h
Archie Gray 31.3 km/h
Declan Rice 31.3 km/h
Kiernan Dewsburry-Hall 31.2 km/h
Lewis Miley 31.1 km/h
Sander Berge 31.1 km/h
Reece James 30.7 km/h
Alaji Bamba 30.6 km/h
Ibrahim Sangare 30.6 km/h
Bruno Fernandes 30.5 km/h
Caleb Yirenkyi 30.3 km/h
Harrison Armstrong 30.1 km/h
Lamare Bogarde 30.1 km/h
Mathias Jensen 29.9 km/h
Elliot Anderson 29.8 km/h
Matt Grimes 29.7 km/h
Kobbie Mainoo 29.6 km/h
Sean Steur 29.5 km/h
Yasin Ayari 29.5 km/h
Alex Toth 29.4 km/h
Boubacar Kamara 29.4 km/h
Regan Slater 29.4 km/h
Adam Wharton 29.2 km/h
Pascal Gross 29.2 km/h
Lucas Bergvall 29.1 km/h
Sasa Lukic 29.1 km/h
Jacob Ramsey 29.0 km/h
Tyler Adams 28.9 km/h
Myles Lewis-Skelley 28.8 km/h
Mateus Fernandes 28.7 km/h
Vitaly Janelt 28.7 km/h
Yehor Yarmoliuk 28.6 km/h
Alexis Mac Aliister 28.5 km/h
Mamadou Sangare 28.5 km/h
Granit Xhaka 28.4 km/h
Jack Hinshelwood 28.4 km/h
Youri Tielemans 28.4 km/h
Victor Torp 28.3 km/h
Enzo Fernandes 28 km/h
Hayden Hackney 28.2 km/h
Conor Gallagher 28.0 km/h
Andrey Santos 27.8 km/h
Shea Charles 27.5 km/h
Daichi Kamada 27 km/h
James Garner 27 km/h
Romeo Lavia 26.7 km/h
Ross Barkley 26.3 km/h
Joao Gomes 25.9 km/h
Mikel Damsgaard 25.8 km/h
Sean Longstaff 25.7 km/h
Eberechi Eze 25.6 km/h
Mikel Merino 25.6 km/h
Martin Zubimendi 25.3 km/h
Charly Alcaraz 24.9 km/h
Mateo Kovacic 24.6 km/h

There are 50 listed midfielders, but fotmob divides players by what they deem their positions to be. So I added James who is listed in the fullbacks, and went through the attacking midfielders list and added who I thought had maybe played central midfield a few times as well - its possible I've included 1 or 2 AMs who have never been played in a CM position, if so I apologize as I tried not to and left out the likes of Cole Palmer and Morgan Rodgers for that reason. So the idea is just for CMs/Dms. About 75 players on the list overall

Its 1 game so a lot will change on that list as the season goes on. But it is a bit interesting to see that a lot of the players at the biggest clubs in the league are on the slower side so far.

Of the top 4 + Chelsea who were 10th :

Arsenal have Odegaard and Rice who are 4th and 5th if Foden counts - I think hes played cm 1 or 2 times? If not, 3rd and 4th. No surprise Szoboszlai is 1st but Liverpool were playing him fullback last season so it'll be interesting to see if he does stay in midfield this season. But Arsenal also have 4 on the slower side with Lewis-Skelley, then Eze, Merino and Zubimendi among the slowest. Bruno is 7th from the players at the top clubs, Mainoo is 10th right behind Elliot Anderson. Tielemans 13th and Santos 15th for players at the top clubs out of 20. So while certainly on the lower side, they're in good company for players from the other top teams. Tielemans and Santos were a bit faster than Chelsea's starters this weekend Enzo and Lavia. Arsenal's midfield is certainly faster with Rice and Odegaard, then Skelley who is just ahead of Tielemans. Also no speed number for Bruno G yet, but I understand it'll be fairly low speed.

City with Anderson and Kovacic is middle of the pack and the actual bottom of the pack. So I think its pretty even with Tielemans and Santos with 1 ahead and 1 behind. Liverpool are obviously strong here with Szoboslai and Gravenberch as the top 2 fastest out of the top clubs and 3rd and 4th out of all midfielders so like Arsenal, clearly faster than our midfield but I've seen plenty of posts slating their midfield so despite being the fastest they dont seem to be rated very highly. I think that puts into perspective how much the speed actually matters. Villa have Kamara who was middle of the pack and Gomes who was 5th slowest in game 1. They do also have Bogarde who came on and hes 8th of the top clubs players. But overall certainly no faster than our midfielders.

Then of course we've just signed Baleba and we'd expect him to be our fastest midfielder now. At his top speed recorded he's faster than any of the speeds from day 1, but thats of course an unfair comparison as Baleba's own speed was not taken from 1 attempt on the first day of the season. I think its reasonable to expect him to be just behind Gravenberch as, it seems Gravenberch's top speed recorded ever was 34.84 km/h and Baleba's is 34.8 km/h. Foden's is lower than both and Szoboszlai's is 36.76 km/h so I think he'll remain fasest for a good while.
 
Ekeke said:
Reposting this from the Tielemans thread

This thread isnt just about central midfielders, while the list is. But there is plenty of talk about our midfield and after 1 league game the list should put into perspective where our midfield really are in terms of speed

Theres been a lot of talk about Tielemans' and Andrey Santos' speed in the past week or two. And while its true that they're actually our slowest players so far other than Lammens, with 28.4 km/h from Tielemans and 27.8 from Santos, here are the CMs from other premier league teams in comparison from the opening day, putting it into context :

Joe Willock 33.9 km/h
Enzo Le Fee 33.7 km/h
Dom Szoboszlai 33.5 km/h
Ryan Gravenberch 33.4 km/h
Elliot Stroud 33.1 km/h
Habib Diarra 32.9 km/h
Phil Foden 32.9 km/h
Alex Scott 32.7 km/h
Lewis Cook 32.7 km/h
Noah Sadiki 32.7 km/h
Ethan Ampadu 32. 6 km/h
Sandro Tonali 32.6 km/h
Joshua King 32 km/h
Xaver Schlager 31.9 km/h
Brendan Aaronson 31.7 km/h
Alex Iwobi 31.7 km/h
Anton Stach 31.6 km/h
Frank Onyeka 31.6 km/h
Martin Odegaard 31.6 km/h
Rodrigo Bentancur 31.5 km/h
Matt Crooks 31.4 km/h
Archie Gray 31.3 km/h
Declan Rice 31.3 km/h
Kiernan Dewsburry-Hall 31.2 km/h
Lewis Miley 31.1 km/h
Sander Berge 31.1 km/h
Reece James 30.7 km/h
Alaji Bamba 30.6 km/h
Ibrahim Sangare 30.6 km/h
Bruno Fernandes 30.5 km/h
Caleb Yirenkyi 30.3 km/h
Harrison Armstrong 30.1 km/h
Lamare Bogarde 30.1 km/h
Mathias Jensen 29.9 km/h
Elliot Anderson 29.8 km/h
Matt Grimes 29.7 km/h
Kobbie Mainoo 29.6 km/h
Sean Steur 29.5 km/h
Yasin Ayari 29.5 km/h
Alex Toth 29.4 km/h
Boubacar Kamara 29.4 km/h
Regan Slater 29.4 km/h
Adam Wharton 29.2 km/h
Pascal Gross 29.2 km/h
Lucas Bergvall 29.1 km/h
Sasa Lukic 29.1 km/h
Jacob Ramsey 29.0 km/h
Tyler Adams 28.9 km/h
Myles Lewis-Skelley 28.8 km/h
Mateus Fernandes 28.7 km/h
Vitaly Janelt 28.7 km/h
Yehor Yarmoliuk 28.6 km/h
Alexis Mac Aliister 28.5 km/h
Mamadou Sangare 28.5 km/h
Granit Xhaka 28.4 km/h
Jack Hinshelwood 28.4 km/h
Youri Tielemans 28.4 km/h
Victor Torp 28.3 km/h
Enzo Fernandes 28 km/h
Hayden Hackney 28.2 km/h
Conor Gallagher 28.0 km/h
Andrey Santos 27.8 km/h
Shea Charles 27.5 km/h
Daichi Kamada 27 km/h
James Garner 27 km/h
Romeo Lavia 26.7 km/h
Ross Barkley 26.3 km/h
Joao Gomes 25.9 km/h
Mikel Damsgaard 25.8 km/h
Sean Longstaff 25.7 km/h
Eberechi Eze 25.6 km/h
Mikel Merino 25.6 km/h
Martin Zubimendi 25.3 km/h
Charly Alcaraz 24.9 km/h
Mateo Kovacic 24.6 km/h

There are 50 listed midfielders, but fotmob divides players by what they deem their positions to be. So I added James who is listed in the fullbacks, and went through the attacking midfielders list and added who I thought had maybe played central midfield a few times as well - its possible I've included 1 or 2 AMs who have never been played in a CM position, if so I apologize as I tried not to and left out the likes of Cole Palmer and Morgan Rodgers for that reason. So the idea is just for CMs/Dms. About 75 players on the list overall

Its 1 game so a lot will change on that list as the season goes on. But it is a bit interesting to see that a lot of the players at the biggest clubs in the league are on the slower side so far.

Of the top 4 + Chelsea who were 10th :

Arsenal have Odegaard and Rice who are 4th and 5th if Foden counts - I think hes played cm 1 or 2 times? If not, 3rd and 4th. No surprise Szoboszlai is 1st but Liverpool were playing him fullback last season so it'll be interesting to see if he does stay in midfield this season. But Arsenal also have 4 on the slower side with Lewis-Skelley, then Eze, Merino and Zubimendi among the slowest. Bruno is 7th from the players at the top clubs, Mainoo is 10th right behind Elliot Anderson. Tielemans 13th and Santos 15th for players at the top clubs out of 20. So while certainly on the lower side, they're in good company for players from the other top teams. Tielemans and Santos were a bit faster than Chelsea's starters this weekend Enzo and Lavia. Arsenal's midfield is certainly faster with Rice and Odegaard, then Skelley who is just ahead of Tielemans. Also no speed number for Bruno G yet, but I understand it'll be fairly low speed.

City with Anderson and Kovacic is middle of the pack and the actual bottom of the pack. So I think its pretty even with Tielemans and Santos with 1 ahead and 1 behind. Liverpool are obviously strong here with Szoboslai and Gravenberch as the top 2 fastest out of the top clubs and 3rd and 4th out of all midfielders so like Arsenal, clearly faster than our midfield but I've seen plenty of posts slating their midfield so despite being the fastest they dont seem to be rated very highly. I think that puts into perspective how much the speed actually matters. Villa have Kamara who was middle of the pack and Gomes who was 5th slowest in game 1. They do also have Bogarde who came on and hes 8th of the top clubs players. But overall certainly no faster than our midfielders.

Then of course we've just signed Baleba and we'd expect him to be our fastest midfielder now. At his top speed recorded he's faster than any of the speeds from day 1, but thats of course an unfair comparison as Baleba's own speed was not taken from 1 attempt on the first day of the season. I think its reasonable to expect him to be just behind Gravenberch as, it seems Gravenberch's top speed recorded ever was 34.84 km/h and Baleba's is 34.8 km/h. Foden's is lower than both and Szoboszlai's is 36.76 km/h so I think he'll remain fasest for a good while.
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My main takeaway from that is that it's perfectly correct to say we have a slow midfield. And it's sitting in front of a defence that doesn't have much pace either.
 
justsomebloke said:
My main takeaway from that is that it's perfectly correct to say we have a slow midfield. And it's sitting in front of a defence that doesn't have much pace either.
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Tielemans clearly wasn't fit, I think he's faster than that. Santos seems a jogger though.
 
TwoSheds said:
Tielemans clearly wasn't fit, I think he's faster than that. Santos seems a jogger though.
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Yeah will never understand not signing Sangare, we look far too lightweight in midfield until late September at earliest
 
Ludens the Red said:
Exactly, but everyone became obsessed with sticking it all on the midfield. And clearly Wilcox thought the same.
Throw in the fact most of our defenders are injury prone and Yoro and heaven are rookies and the situation looks even worse.

Throwing everything financially at our midfield this season whilst ignoring the defence I genuinely can’t fathom.
We should have kept Casemiro, just brought in Tielemans and perhaps looked at a less costly younger signing than Santos and picked up someone like Kessie on a free.

Just fecking bonkers squad management if you ask me. But why should we ever expect anything better, been this way for 14 years apart from like two seasons.
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The defence needs work but the midfield needed to be revamped. Anything other than a full refresh of the midfield would have been a massive failure.

I'd imagine next year we will do something similar with the defence. I also think Yoro and Heaven will continue to improve.
 
justsomebloke said:
My main takeaway from that is that it's perfectly correct to say we have a slow midfield. And it's sitting in front of a defence that doesn't have much pace either.
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It is, if you mean our starting midfield this past weekend compared to every premier league team.

If you include Bruno, Mainoo and now Baleba its incorrect.

Bruno and Mainoo are middle of the pack. Baleba will be one of the higher speeds

Also, as already said in context of comparison to the other top clubs even our starters last weekend who are our slowest so far, were about the same as City, Chelsea and Villa's midfields. Liverpools and Arsenals are faster
 
Maximum running speed is very little to do with how fast a midfield is or how well players cover ground. Pretty sure that Hojlund was absolutely rapid when measured. He very rarely looked that rapid and was often beaten for pace because football is a lot about acceleration, change of direction and anticipation/timing.
 
mctrials23 said:
Maximum running speed is very little to do with how fast a midfield is or how well players cover ground. Pretty sure that Hojlund was absolutely rapid when measured. He very rarely looked that rapid and was often beaten for pace because football is a lot about acceleration, change of direction and anticipation/timing.
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Not just maximum speed, but speed in general isnt very important in midfield. The first yard is in your head - response time, reading the game, positioning yourself correctly, going to challenge for a 50/50 with the right aggression etc. The actual speed is a bonus. Usain Bolt wouldnt be a good midfielder just because hes fast.
 
Age is another factor to consider. We still rely on Harry and Shaw.

Across the entire City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea squads the only defender in thats the same age or older than Luke Shaw or Harry Maguire in VVD.
 
dannyrhinos89 said:
He would’ve been my choice for LB I’ve never seen someone whip in inch perfect crosses since beckham was around.

He’s got a wand of a left foot but he’s always overlooked as an option.
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You can’t us this turn of phrase. It’s reserved for Stewart Downing only.
 
Ekeke said:
It is, if you mean our starting midfield this past weekend compared to every premier league team.

If you include Bruno, Mainoo and now Baleba its incorrect.

Bruno and Mainoo are middle of the pack. Baleba will be one of the higher speeds

Also, as already said in context of comparison to the other top clubs even our starters last weekend who are our slowest so far, were about the same as City, Chelsea and Villa's midfields. Liverpools and Arsenals are faster
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Are you sure Mainoo is middle of the pack, he generally looks like he’s running in treacle when covering large spaces. Maybe middle over 5 yards.
 
Who is our fast players over 5-10 yards? I'm thinking Amad is the only one who is really quick and nimble enough to get past someone from a standing start. Even Rashford likes to have a few yards to stretch out. It's been a while since we had players that could take on his man from a standing start like Nani, Valencia etc (James clearly had the speed, but...)
 
Ekeke said:
It is, if you mean our starting midfield this past weekend compared to every premier league team.

If you include Bruno, Mainoo and now Baleba its incorrect.

Bruno and Mainoo are middle of the pack. Baleba will be one of the higher speeds

Also, as already said in context of comparison to the other top clubs even our starters last weekend who are our slowest so far, were about the same as City, Chelsea and Villa's midfields. Liverpools and Arsenals are faster
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That sounds optimistic to me. Mainoo has good quickness, but not recovery pace. Baleba a little bit the same, though probably better than Mainoo. Suspect Bruno's a bit below middle of the pack.
 
justsomebloke said:
That sounds optimistic to me. Mainoo has good quickness, but not recovery pace. Baleba a little bit the same, though probably better than Mainoo. Suspect Bruno's a bit below middle of the pack.
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Baleba's top speed recorded (ever) was just short of Gravenberch's who is 4th fastest and 2nd fastest of the players at the top clubs so far this season. So he should be more than a little bit faster than Mainoo
 
Ekeke said:
Reposting this from the Tielemans thread

This thread isnt just about central midfielders, while the list is. But there is plenty of talk about our midfield and after 1 league game the list should put into perspective where our midfield really are in terms of speed

Theres been a lot of talk about Tielemans' and Andrey Santos' speed in the past week or two. And while its true that they're actually our slowest players so far other than Lammens, with 28.4 km/h from Tielemans and 27.8 from Santos, here are the CMs from other premier league teams in comparison from the opening day, putting it into context :

Joe Willock 33.9 km/h
Enzo Le Fee 33.7 km/h
Dom Szoboszlai 33.5 km/h
Ryan Gravenberch 33.4 km/h
Elliot Stroud 33.1 km/h
Habib Diarra 32.9 km/h
Phil Foden 32.9 km/h
Alex Scott 32.7 km/h
Lewis Cook 32.7 km/h
Noah Sadiki 32.7 km/h
Ethan Ampadu 32. 6 km/h
Sandro Tonali 32.6 km/h
Joshua King 32 km/h
Xaver Schlager 31.9 km/h
Brendan Aaronson 31.7 km/h
Alex Iwobi 31.7 km/h
Anton Stach 31.6 km/h
Frank Onyeka 31.6 km/h
Martin Odegaard 31.6 km/h
Rodrigo Bentancur 31.5 km/h
Matt Crooks 31.4 km/h
Archie Gray 31.3 km/h
Declan Rice 31.3 km/h
Kiernan Dewsburry-Hall 31.2 km/h
Lewis Miley 31.1 km/h
Sander Berge 31.1 km/h
Reece James 30.7 km/h
Alaji Bamba 30.6 km/h
Ibrahim Sangare 30.6 km/h
Bruno Fernandes 30.5 km/h
Caleb Yirenkyi 30.3 km/h
Harrison Armstrong 30.1 km/h
Lamare Bogarde 30.1 km/h
Mathias Jensen 29.9 km/h
Elliot Anderson 29.8 km/h
Matt Grimes 29.7 km/h
Kobbie Mainoo 29.6 km/h
Sean Steur 29.5 km/h
Yasin Ayari 29.5 km/h
Alex Toth 29.4 km/h
Boubacar Kamara 29.4 km/h
Regan Slater 29.4 km/h
Adam Wharton 29.2 km/h
Pascal Gross 29.2 km/h
Lucas Bergvall 29.1 km/h
Sasa Lukic 29.1 km/h
Jacob Ramsey 29.0 km/h
Tyler Adams 28.9 km/h
Myles Lewis-Skelley 28.8 km/h
Mateus Fernandes 28.7 km/h
Vitaly Janelt 28.7 km/h
Yehor Yarmoliuk 28.6 km/h
Alexis Mac Aliister 28.5 km/h
Mamadou Sangare 28.5 km/h
Granit Xhaka 28.4 km/h
Jack Hinshelwood 28.4 km/h
Youri Tielemans 28.4 km/h
Victor Torp 28.3 km/h
Enzo Fernandes 28 km/h
Hayden Hackney 28.2 km/h
Conor Gallagher 28.0 km/h
Andrey Santos 27.8 km/h
Shea Charles 27.5 km/h
Daichi Kamada 27 km/h
James Garner 27 km/h
Romeo Lavia 26.7 km/h
Ross Barkley 26.3 km/h
Joao Gomes 25.9 km/h
Mikel Damsgaard 25.8 km/h
Sean Longstaff 25.7 km/h
Eberechi Eze 25.6 km/h
Mikel Merino 25.6 km/h
Martin Zubimendi 25.3 km/h
Charly Alcaraz 24.9 km/h
Mateo Kovacic 24.6 km/h

There are 50 listed midfielders, but fotmob divides players by what they deem their positions to be. So I added James who is listed in the fullbacks, and went through the attacking midfielders list and added who I thought had maybe played central midfield a few times as well - its possible I've included 1 or 2 AMs who have never been played in a CM position, if so I apologize as I tried not to and left out the likes of Cole Palmer and Morgan Rodgers for that reason. So the idea is just for CMs/Dms. About 75 players on the list overall

Its 1 game so a lot will change on that list as the season goes on. But it is a bit interesting to see that a lot of the players at the biggest clubs in the league are on the slower side so far.

Of the top 4 + Chelsea who were 10th :

Arsenal have Odegaard and Rice who are 4th and 5th if Foden counts - I think hes played cm 1 or 2 times? If not, 3rd and 4th. No surprise Szoboszlai is 1st but Liverpool were playing him fullback last season so it'll be interesting to see if he does stay in midfield this season. But Arsenal also have 4 on the slower side with Lewis-Skelley, then Eze, Merino and Zubimendi among the slowest. Bruno is 7th from the players at the top clubs, Mainoo is 10th right behind Elliot Anderson. Tielemans 13th and Santos 15th for players at the top clubs out of 20. So while certainly on the lower side, they're in good company for players from the other top teams. Tielemans and Santos were a bit faster than Chelsea's starters this weekend Enzo and Lavia. Arsenal's midfield is certainly faster with Rice and Odegaard, then Skelley who is just ahead of Tielemans. Also no speed number for Bruno G yet, but I understand it'll be fairly low speed.

City with Anderson and Kovacic is middle of the pack and the actual bottom of the pack. So I think its pretty even with Tielemans and Santos with 1 ahead and 1 behind. Liverpool are obviously strong here with Szoboslai and Gravenberch as the top 2 fastest out of the top clubs and 3rd and 4th out of all midfielders so like Arsenal, clearly faster than our midfield but I've seen plenty of posts slating their midfield so despite being the fastest they dont seem to be rated very highly. I think that puts into perspective how much the speed actually matters. Villa have Kamara who was middle of the pack and Gomes who was 5th slowest in game 1. They do also have Bogarde who came on and hes 8th of the top clubs players. But overall certainly no faster than our midfielders.

Then of course we've just signed Baleba and we'd expect him to be our fastest midfielder now. At his top speed recorded he's faster than any of the speeds from day 1, but thats of course an unfair comparison as Baleba's own speed was not taken from 1 attempt on the first day of the season. I think its reasonable to expect him to be just behind Gravenberch as, it seems Gravenberch's top speed recorded ever was 34.84 km/h and Baleba's is 34.8 km/h. Foden's is lower than both and Szoboszlai's is 36.76 km/h so I think he'll remain fasest for a good while.
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Don’t want to rubbish the list or believe all you read on the internet(don’t) but Eze looks quick. Just checked and online it says 34.0kmh top speed. 9.0kmh for than the list quotes.
 
Ekeke said:
Baleba's top speed recorded (ever) was just short of Gravenberch's who is 4th fastest and 2nd fastest of the players at the top clubs so far this season. So he should be more than a little bit faster than Mainoo
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I stand happily corrected!
 
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