Moise Kean | Everton player

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Samid, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. Apr 3, 2019

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

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    Please, someone answer this. That we are discussing Kean more than the incident blows my mind. These guys are essentially telling him to ignore it.
  2. Apr 3, 2019

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    As a blanket statement? Yes. Depending on the context, racial abuse is more than mere mean words. It conveys a lot of negative energy (for lack of a better term) which can provoke a violent reaction. Actually, the threat of a violent reaction is why a lot of racial abuse goes unsaid. Go to someone and yell out a racial slur and see how well that works out for you (not you personally, I mean that generically).

    I like to go to a quote from the poet and philosopher Matt Kelly Barnes, on topics like this.

  3. Apr 3, 2019

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    Not sure if you're just deliberately being stupid here. I wouldn't judge anyone for reacting to being racially abused, but to suggest that there aren't better/worse ways to react is somewhat ridiculous.

    You can actually educate or failing that shame racists into no longer abusing people. You most definitely can't provoke or taunt them into not racially abusing people. You might provoke them into doing it more or turning violent, which I would think any sane person might want to try and avoid.
  4. Apr 3, 2019

    africanspur Full Member

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    No it wouldn't be. Obviously if Kean had jumped into the stands, kung fu kicked some of those fans and then stabbed one of them, nobody would be saying that is a normal reaction.

    When people are saying it is tone deaf to tell people how they can react to racism (and in this case, Kean barely even bloody reacted. I had to really double check I wasn't missing something because he literally stood there) when they have no idea of what it feels like.

    And the thing is, even though this wasn't a reaction, this will not be the first time Kean has experienced racism, just as whenever one of us reacts to a racist incident, it isn't the first time it is happening to us. It is an accumulation of incidents. It doesn't have to be somebody saying horrible things or making monkey noises at me or Kean or Adisa or whoever. There are so many of these little incidents which just add up. Most of the time you don't respond and just try to get on with your day. Unfortunately, sometimes it all gets a bit much.

    So it can get a bit frustrating when somebody who has never experienced racism in the same way (and in your case, has equated racism in the Serie A thread with any other type of abuse) tells someone or has a strong opinion on how they should respond to a racist incident. Especially when that response, again, was so mild.

    I've said this before on this site about other contexts but I wish sometimes people would try to empathise with others and think about how and why they're feeling the way they do. I think it used it for transgender issues in the past but it works pretty well here.

    Literally every single black person in this thread and I'm sure most in your circles in real life as well will be reacting to this in the same way. Most of the black people who've reacted in the media have reacted in the same way.

    Now, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can never comment on what people of other races do or say. But if a group of people is responding in a certain way to something, do you think that it may be worth listening to what they are saying and how they feel? That perhaps we're not all hysterical and there is a reason that in this thread, you have Africans, black Brits, African Americans and I think one person from the Caribbean, all with wholly different upbringings....saying roughly the same thing?
  5. Apr 3, 2019

    Sayros Full Member

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    Why is it always in Italy from which we hear these stories? It's 2019 ffs, do something about it. The blame lies, above all, to the Italian football federation in charge of Serie A. They need to come out with major sanctions on Presidents of clubs who aren't doping everything they can to stamp this racism out. Listening to the president of cagliari, you can tell he has no desire to change anything and is content with how things went.
  6. Apr 3, 2019

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    I'm just waiting for the out of context MLK quote at this point.
  7. Apr 3, 2019

    Josep Dowling Full Member

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    Kean’s reaction has done exactly what was needed. It’s being openly discussed rather than ignored, which seems to be the expectation in Italy.

    Why should a player be abused all game not be able to celebrate. How is that any different to a player celebrating in front of opposing fans? Like Neville running towards the Liverpool fans. Are we to say he shouldn’t do that if he was black? That’s essentially what some people are saying on here.
  8. Apr 3, 2019

    africanspur Full Member

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    Can you provide some examples of when you've personally seen racists being 'educated' into no longer being racists or shamed into no longer abusing people?

    I've tried talking to people who racially abused me or my wife. The best I've received is a very defensive 'I'm not racist, I don't see colour etc etc'. I've never once raised my voice, called anyone a racist, shouted, screamed, resorted to violence, intimidated. I've always tried for amicable discussion. It is utterly pointless. At best I just ignore it now. I am worn down and simply cannot be bothered anymore.

    It is always particularly horrible when it is a patient doing it as well and any attempts to 'educate' in that regard have been met with the same aggression/defensiveness and, in one instance, a complaint from the patient.
  9. Apr 3, 2019

    horsechoker Sailor vee, this is a right off.

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    A picture paints a thousand words and he used 18 emojies, so that's 18,000 words. What a blabber mouth!
  10. Apr 3, 2019

    ErranMorad New Member

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    I wonder how the likes of Sterling, Balotelli, Kean, Koulibaly and others are supposed to "educate" these racists? There is only thing they can do, that is point to these morons and then it's up to the FA and the authorities to deal with them. The problem is that their clubs, football associations and authorities repeatedly fail them. Instead of acting against the scum they want to come out and educate the abused on how to react. Bonucci calling it 50-50, Allegri first statement telling Kean about his responsibility & the Italian FA will probably do their bit and hit the club with a slap on the wrist shows what the mentality is towards racism. These issues need to dealt in the strictest way possible. They should hand the fans and the clubs the harshest punishments. Only comeuppance can stop this, not fecking education.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  11. Apr 3, 2019

    MJJ New Member

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    Dock the club 20 points per incident and you will be surprised how quickly the problem will go away.
  12. Apr 3, 2019

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    There I was, giving you too much credit.

    But because I have time, what end reaction are you fearful of here? And why are you so desperate to avoid this end reaction that you think suggesting that racists can be educated or shamed has any merit?
  13. Apr 3, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    Someone's been watching American History X
  14. Apr 3, 2019

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    You're a better person than me, and I mean that.
  15. Apr 3, 2019

    villain Hates Beyoncé

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    How many racists have you educated or shamed?
  16. Apr 3, 2019

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

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    fecking put a bid in for Kean. Those pricks.
  17. Apr 3, 2019

    africanspur Full Member

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    I honestly have never seen this film, what does it entail?

    And I wouldn't say so. People just have different personalities and different reactions. What makes the world (kind of) interesting!
  18. Apr 3, 2019

    Cloud7 Full Member

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    The irony of that first sentence when you read what the rest of the post says.
  19. Apr 3, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Moise Kean is a hero. Also great to see many players condemning and laughing at Bonucci.
  20. Apr 3, 2019

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

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    The idea that an opinion on it is worth more due to a person’s ethnicity is silly.

    I’ve been racially abused and experienced serious racism first hand. Not the kind of racism where you get a bad look or an insulting comment either. I have close family from all over the world and from very different ethnicities so trust me, I’m well aware. The point is that I shouldn’t have to tell you my life story or what my roots are to be able to have an opinion on it.

    As for the post in the other thread, it was anything but downplaying racism.

    It’s obviously wrong that Kean gets abused for his ethnicity. But why is it alright that Insigne gets abused for his height or Chiellini gets abused for his appearance? That’s what I don’t understand.
  21. Apr 3, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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  22. Apr 3, 2019

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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    ITT : People That can’t read/speak Italian.

    The press is having a field day. There’s nuance in what Bonucci said.
  23. Apr 3, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    Seriously? You equate the two? Or am I reading that wrong?

    I get why people shouldn't be insulted for their appearance etc but Racism is dehumanizing,degrading,demeaning on just about every single level I can think of. Whole races have been persecuted and murdered for it. I could go on but I'll leave it there
  24. Apr 3, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    Please elborate
  25. Apr 3, 2019

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    I don't think you understand racism. Based on that last question you just asked.
  26. Apr 3, 2019

    africanspur Full Member

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    I didn't say that one opinion is worth more than an other generally. Nor have I said that an opinion of a person is worth more because they are a certain ethnicity. But everyone's opinion is not equal at all times. If you come to one of my clinics and tell me how to treat patients (I'm assuming here that you are not a doctor), then sorry but my opinion is worth more than yours in that instance. Whatever your job may be, if I came to tell you how to do that, your opinion would be worth more than mine. If I try to tell a woman how to feel with her ovarian cancer diagnosis, then I'm an ass. I have no possible idea how it would feel to be told that diagnosis (or personally, any cancer diagnosis). Your opinion when it comes to Portuguese politics, history, language etc is worth more than mine. Because you know more about it.

    And so it is with this. Nobody is saying people should not have an opinion. Nobody is saying don't talk about it. But when people make definitive statements about how someone should respond to their racist abuse, when they've likely never experienced that before, that doesn't sit right. And start making high and mighty comments about how that isn't the right response, how they should be brave and show them that they're the animals etc etc. You think these idiots care what Kean does? I've never asked for your life history.

    Of course it was.

    As it is, I generally disagree with the abuse in stadia anyway. I'm there to support my own team and have a nice time, not to abuse players from the other teams and if it was up to me, I wouldn't have it at all. However, the two are not even slightly the same, partly because they don't exist in a vacuum. Short people have never been enslaved and moved across the globe to work because they're short. Ugly people (is that what is supposed to be wrong with Chiellini's appearance?) aren't likely to be randomly abused on the street. Insigne isn't likely to be passed up for being offered an interview because he's short. There is both a historical and current context to why it is different.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...y-forte-dei-marmi-louis-vuitton-a7905026.html

    You wouldn't get this for instance with a picture of a short man or a ?bad looking man.

    Incidentally, do Chiellini and Insigne regularly get a lot of abuse for their appearance then?
  27. Apr 3, 2019

    MackRobinson Full Member

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    I would say no, there aren't "better" or "worse" ways to deal with someone who believes you are or treats you inferior on purpose. You can say there are different approaches, or even more mature ways but to say there are better ways implies one way is proven way of stopping that kind of intentional abuse.

    The second bolded point, I think is extremely naive. Not everyone responds to reason. Some people respond better to fear. For instance, in the US part of the fear of using the N word is the visceral, negative reaction that majority of African-americans show when hearing that word. There is a fear of getting beat to a pulp for using that word is very real and as result everyone most people are careful not to use that word in the wrong company. Would we achieve the same results by explaining the history of the word and why it's bad? No (but for reasons beyond the scope of this post).
  28. Apr 3, 2019

    Cloud7 Full Member

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    Historical context. People weren’t enslaved, treated as property, abused, lynched, treated as second class citizens even after being ‘freed’ because they’re short or because they’re ugly or whatever Chiellini gets abused for. The reason racism is worse than any other form of insult is because of the historical weight of those words and the events/thoughts that they represent.
  29. Apr 3, 2019

    africanspur Full Member

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    @Inigo Montoya

    Ah thanks, will check it out!

    I'm sure some people do turn around, that's how society changes long term of course. But on a one-to-one setting...I think people are living in a dream world.
  30. Apr 3, 2019

    Romez New Member

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    Black people get racially abused and it’s always us who are supposed to ‘be the bigger person’, ‘turn the other cheek’ and be civil. It’s always our responsibility to educate the racists and show them the right way.

    You see it all the time in those videos on social media. The white person says something racist then black person goes to confront them then people jump in and hold the black person back from doing or saying anything all the while no one goes up to the actual racist to confront them.
  31. Apr 3, 2019

    GioF New Member

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    It’s without a doubt not ‘always in Italy’ where racism occurs.
    Check your facts before spouting that crap.
    We’ve just had the England team have racist taunts in Montenegro and this disgusting behaviour is happening all over the world.
    Changes need to happen of course but to begin your post about racism with “why is it always in Italy” is insulting to me and contridicts any good opinions you have on this subject.
  32. Apr 3, 2019

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

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    There are different levels of racism. Making a generalization about a racial stereotype does not equate to wanting to erradicate a race...

    I’m not comparing persecuting and murdering an entire race with some chants abusing Insigne’s height. I’m comparing abusing chants about a player’s ethnicity with abusing chants over other elements of a person’s appearance.

    Comparing them, not equating them. It’s easy to understand why racist abuse gets the criticism it gets. What’s not easy to understand is why all other kinds of abuse are completely ok in people’s eyes.
  33. Apr 3, 2019

    dannyrhinos89 OMG socks and sandals lol!

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    Jeez what a Cnut bonucci is.

    Should be supporting his young teammate instead of blaming him, What a fecking moron.
  34. Apr 3, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    Whoa! Hold on a minute. In the past yes but more and more incidents are being confronted by people being just... well decent human beings, black,brown or white. Does it really matter?
  35. Apr 3, 2019

    11101 Full Member

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    The black players have got to start walking off. All of them, with their teammates if possible. The FAs clearly have no interest in anything other than paying lip service to the problem so the only way they'll take notice is if matches start getting abandoned.
  36. Apr 3, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    Team mate yes! Friend and fellow human being? I don't think he sees it that way
  37. Apr 3, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    You were right in your earlier post. You don't understand racism
  38. Apr 3, 2019

    Ban Full Member

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    Bonucci is a scumbag. End of.
  39. Apr 3, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    Well, address it as an Italian then not take an defensive stance. Of course it's not just Italy!

    We can express our dismay with Italy and racism for a number of reasons: It's not a backward country in terms of social theory, It's been at the forefront of social change,it's been a footballing nation we have looked up to,it's given so much to the world in terms of art culture and sport. It's not hard to understand why some might ask that question.
  40. Apr 3, 2019

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

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    I certainly don’t understand it the way you understand it, that’s for sure.