Moises Caicedo | Chelsea player

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Who knows whether he would have been able to fulfill his potential with us as he did for Brighton. I think, he didn't even really play much in his first year or so. Thats the overall issue, there are a lot of downsides for a player to come into a high pressure environment like a topclub. A player so mobile would have had the chance to get lost in our unorganized team since he would have been needed everywhere.

He played really well today. So much more on top of things than any midfielder of us this season. Capable of contributing on and off the ball.

He first went on loan to Belgium to acclimatize to Europe. United plain dropped that ball on that one and not for the first time

 

[cotumely]

Y'all are a world class striker away from challenging again imo

Maybe we should play Cucurella up front.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Maybe we should play Cucurella up front.

You consider him a world class striker?

 

[steve zizou]

Not really when we're wasting £50m on the likes of Ugarte who already needs replacing. Caicedo will be a mainstay for years for them.

Caicedo looked even worse when he first signed for them!

 

[Righteous Steps]

Y'all are a world class striker away from challenging again imo

A world class striker doesn’t absolve them from the problems they have at the back, particularly with the keeper. Also there is question marks about the coach too.

 

[WeePat]

A world class striker doesn’t absolve them from the problems they have at the back, particularly with the keeper. Also there is question marks about the coach too.

3rd best defence in the league this season. I always thought we had decent defenders individually but we've been much better as a unit this season. You're definitely right about the keeper though.

 

[cotumely]

You consider him a world class striker?

He’s looking a better striker than Nkunku at the moment.

 

[Righteous Steps]

3rd best defence in the league this season. I always thought we had decent defenders individually but we've been much better as a unit this season. You're definitely right about the keeper though.

I think another senior CB would do wonders, you’ve got a lot of young cbs with potential but a Silva in his prime for example(if that even exists right now) or a Saliba type would do wonders. Colwill for example is a good talent but probably a few years away from being his very best, that and a GK plus a striker and it looks promising.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

A world class striker doesn’t absolve them from the problems they have at the back, particularly with the keeper. Also there is question marks about the coach too.

Their entire "problem at the back" is a purely awful keeper. I don't buy the alleged question marks about the coach neither. His predecessor was worshipped even after his exit yet did objectively far worse gelling this young side into a unit.

 

[Dancfc]

Caicedo looked even worse when he first signed for them!

For one game.

 

[steve zizou]

For one game.

Ditto Ugarte then. For half the price

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Think at this point it's pretty clear he's the best defensive midfielder in the world.

To put in that performance vs PSG having sprained his ankle 5 days ago is ridiculous. If anything we underpaid for him.

 

[Posh Red]

Amazing player. He can be a complete midfield player. Needs to win a few of the biggest trophies to receive the reputation he probably deserves.

 

[Orc]

Think at this point it's pretty clear he's the best defensive midfielder in the world.

To put in that performance vs PSG having sprained his ankle 5 days ago is ridiculous. If anything we underpaid for him.

Still doesn’t get the respect he deserves. Saw loads of PL team of the seasons with Rice in them and none with Caicedo who is absolutely the better player and had a better season.

He’s a fecking amazing midfielder. The true heir to Kante.

 

[Posh Red]

Still doesn’t get the respect he deserves. Saw loads of PL team of the seasons with Rice in them and none with Caicedo who is absolutely the better player and had a better season.

He’s a fecking amazing midfielder. The true heir to Kante.

He has more to his game on the ball than Kante, to be honest.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Still doesn’t get the respect he deserves. Saw loads of PL team of the seasons with Rice in them and none with Caicedo who is absolutely the better and had a better season.

He’s a fecking amazing midfielder. The true heir to Kante.

It's a crystal clear IQ test; anyone who picks Rice over him can have their opinion immediately dismissed.

The scary thing is he's a better passer than Kante ever was, is far more press resistant, and has shown himself to be more positionally versatile - especially when compared to Kante at the same age. The only thing he lacks vs even prime Kante is the ball carrying - suffice to say the sky is the limit for Caicedo.

 

[Apokalips]

So frustrating that we wanted him for 5m before he went to Brighton. So many class midfielders we were close to signing - Caicedo, Kroos, Thiago but yet we somehow fully neglect the area instead.

 

[P-Ro]

This guy is the bollocks. Worth every penny.

 

[Isotope]

That City guy still has that best DM title. Although Caicedo has all the tools to get there, it will be easier for him when he plays for a team that constantly winning big trophies.

 

[Insanity]

So frustrating that we wanted him for 5m before he went to Brighton. So many class midfielders we were close to signing - Caicedo, Kroos, Thiago but yet we somehow fully neglect the area instead.

We didn't neglect it, we just got the wrong player every time: Fellaini, Herrera, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Pogba, Matic, Fred, Casemiro, Ugarte - that's around Gbp 400m spent on the area in the last 12 seasons. Unfortunately, none of them could become the mainstay of our midfield and were able to lift it's level.

 

[Teja]

We didn't neglect it, we just got the wrong player every time: Fellaini, Herrera, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Pogba, Matic, Fred, Casemiro, Ugarte - that's around Gbp 400m spent on the area in the last 12 seasons. Unfortunately, none of them could become the mainstay of our midfield and were able to lift it's level.

That isn't very much is it? And I don't think Pogba and Fellaini should even count as CMs (~120M of that money). The primary thing people complain about the midfield is a DM / DLP profile like Caicedo, Rodri, Busquets, Matic etc. I think Matic and Casemiro were the only pure DMs we signed in 10 years. Both aged out very quickly and were never really replaced.

If you limit that to a DLP, Matic really was the only one. I think it's chronic underinvestment in the most important area of the pitch.

 

[Insanity]

That isn't very much is it? And I don't think Pogba and Fellaini should even count as CMs (~120M of that money). The primary thing people complain about the midfield is a DM / DLP profile like Caicedo, Rodri, Busquets, Matic etc. I think Matic and Casemiro were the only pure DMs we signed in 10 years. Both aged out very quickly and were never really replaced.

If you limit that to a DLP, Matic really was the only one. I think it's chronic underinvestment in the most important area of the pitch.

No, ~£400m is a lot of money. I don't remember how much we have spent in total but it must be closer to 20%-25% of our actual spend in this period.

Pogba and Fellaini were signed for the CM position, it's a different debate whether they should have been considered CM options or not. Schneiderlin was also signed as a defensive midfielder. Fred was also mentioned as DM.

We have also had McTom and Mainoo emerge in the last 12 seasons and we signed Eriksen on a free.

Our problem hasn't been neglect but always identifying the wrong player for the position.

 

[Teja]

No, ~£400m is a lot of money. I don't remember how much we have spent in total but it must be closer to 20%-25% of our actual spend in this period.

Pogba and Fellaini were signed for the CM position, it's a different debate whether they should have been considered CM options or not. Schneiderlin was also signed as a defensive midfielder. Fred was also mentioned as DM.

We have also had McTom and Mainoo emerge in the last 12 seasons and we signed Eriksen on a free.

Our problem hasn't been neglect but always identifying the wrong player for the position.

I don't think even when we were signing them Fred, Fellaini, Schweinsteiger etc. would be considered DM / DLP profiles. Everyone recognized the chronic underinvestment in that DM / DLP position as it was happening without any benefit of hindsight. You're also wrapping all midfielders up into a nice little basket called "midfield" and are trying to justify we spent money but that won't fly in any other position on the pitch. Imagine using fullbacks and CBs interchangeably (because "defenders") or a winger that goes down the touchline with a cut-in and shoot merchant. So I'd remove guys like Pogba at the very least.

To justify the bit that we recognized the problems as they happened, I offer a few examples: I remember Ole being asked what type of profile he was looking at for midfield (because McFred was already a meme) and he said something along the lines of someone who can do everything leading to a meltdown in this place (Ole is a PE teacher!!). Before that it was the sign a DM to unleash Pogba brigade. Many many threads on the caf are proof that we recognized that this was an area of concern as it happened.

So let's move on to the specific players we did sign at DM and what happened with each.

Schneiderlin: Sold in one season when it was clear he wasn't the right fit. Replaced with Pogba (lol). Pogba, Herrera, Mata was our midfield the following season. It was okay. Jose instantly recognized that lack of a DM was problematic and went and signed Matic the following summer.

Matic: Stellar first season - a brief 6 month period where the midfield was perfectly balanced with Matic, Herrera and Pogba. Finished 2nd. Fell off in a year and was never replaced. Step up, youth forward / #10, Scott McTominay, welcome to Man Utd as DM.

Casemiro: Same story.

Fred: Not even a DM but if you insist, it was extremely obvious where his skillset lied (like Ugarte this season) after one season and it wasn't DM. We tried to paper over the cracks with McTominay (again a symptom of underinvestment in this position) even when it was clear that he too was not a DM and benefitted with more freedom up the pitch.

So two ageing quality DMs that were briefly good. One crap DM. One not even a DM. We've had a good DM for about two seasons out of the last 12.

This is one of my strongest opinions about United and I don't think anyone can really change this without a mountain of data -- the DM / Playmaker position was and continues to be the most neglected position on the pitch and until that's fixed, we go nowhere. Even this season, we hope Bruno can have a Paul Scholes arc and evolve into that playmaking role. Let's see how well that works out.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Think at this point it's pretty clear he's the best defensive midfielder in the world.

To put in that performance vs PSG having sprained his ankle 5 days ago is ridiculous. If anything we underpaid for him.

How do you underpay for a defensive midfielder when you spend 100m+, it would never be underpaying unless he starts adding goals and assists to his game like Rodri did.

He won’t because Rodri is a unicorn hence why he could win the B’allon Dor

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

How do you underpay for a defensive midfielder when you spend 100m+, it would never be underpaying unless he starts adding goals and assists to his game like Rodri did.

He won’t because Rodri is a unicorn hence why he could win the B’allon Dor

Why would you judge a defensive midfielder by goals and assists?

 

[Hammondo]

That isn't very much is it? And I don't think Pogba and Fellaini should even count as CMs (~120M of that money). The primary thing people complain about the midfield is a DM / DLP profile like Caicedo, Rodri, Busquets, Matic etc. I think Matic and Casemiro were the only pure DMs we signed in 10 years. Both aged out very quickly and were never really replaced.

If you limit that to a DLP, Matic really was the only one. I think it's chronic underinvestment in the most important area of the pitch.

What is pogba then?

 

[SilentWitness]

Why would you judge a defensive midfielder by goals and assists?

If you're going to pay 100m+ for a player and be in the top 10 most expensive transfers of all time, I think it's fair enough that you're going to be judged on all facets of your game including goals and assists.

 

[Hammondo]

How do you underpay for a defensive midfielder when you spend 100m+, it would never be underpaying unless he starts adding goals and assists to his game like Rodri did.

He won’t because Rodri is a unicorn hence why he could win the B’allon Dor

Goals and assists are really not important to a DM.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

If you're going to pay 100m+ for a player and be in the top 10 most expensive transfers of all time, I think it's fair enough that you're going to be judged on all facets of your game including goals and assists.

Disagree. He's in the team to defend which he does better than any midfielder in the world. He's the reason we can push bodies up in a 3-1-6 without being completely exposed.

 

[SilentWitness]

Disagree. He's in the team to defend which he does better than any midfielder in the world. He's the reason we can push bodies up in a 3-1-6 without being completely exposed.

Fair enough if you disagree but I don't think it's an outlandish thing to suggest given the outlay. Both he and Rice are within the top 10 transfer fees of all time. I think it's fair if people expect a bit more.

 

[Fortitude]

One of the few players I went full muppet over. Sickening to see him realising his potential elsewhere. This is the level of player people imagine Rice to be. This is also the level you expect from someone going for so much money.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Fair enough if you disagree but I don't think it's an outlandish thing to suggest given the outlay. Both he and Rice are within the top 10 transfer fees of all time. I think it's fair if people expect a bit more.

I mean sure - goals and assists are good of course - but it's just not even close to the top of the list of metrics I'd look at to evaluate a defensive midfielder.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Goals and assists are really not important to a DM.

I know but if you’re saying a 100m+ fee is a bargain you really can justify that type of statement in my opinion if the player is a Rodri type player who combines great defensive play with progressive passes, goals and assists.

 

[SilentWitness]

I mean sure - goals and assists are good of course - but it's just not even close to the top of the list of metrics I'd look at to evaluate a defensive midfielder.

I don't necessarily disagree, can just understand why others may have that view due to the fee. As with Rice, it does appear that both you and Arsenal are very happy with the contribution they give to the side so that fee is worth it in that respect without those facets some may think are needed to justify the fee.

 

[golden_blunder]

For the price I’d expect a better hairstyle. Refund

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I know but if you’re saying a 100m+ fee is a bargain you really can justify that type of statement in my opinion if the player is a Rodri type player who combines great defensive play with progressive passes, goals and assists.

Caicedo is an excellent progressive passer as well though:


My point more broadly is that I don't think Caicedo has to be the one scoring and assisting; his presence and defensive workrate alone allows us to play both Enzo Fernandez and Palmer in midfield - who managed 25 & 30 goal contributions respectively this year.

 

[Hammondo]

I know but if you’re saying a 100m+ fee is a bargain you really can justify that type of statement in my opinion if the player is a Rodri type player who combines great defensive play with progressive passes, goals and assists.

Perhaps, but you can be a 100m Dm without scoring or assisting.

 

[Rnd898]

If you're going to pay 100m+ for a player and be in the top 10 most expensive transfers of all time, I think it's fair enough that you're going to be judged on all facets of your game including goals and assists.

So going down that rabbit hole, should defenders be judged by G/A too? Has VVD not been a hugely successful signing for Liverpool because he only scores or assists once every ten games? He too was among the top 10 most expensive transfers of all time when he signed, though obviously been taken over by many signings in the 7 years since.

A player like Caicedo makes everyone around him play with more space and freedom so does it really matter that he's not the individual doing the actual scoring or assisting?

 

[SilentWitness]

So going down that rabbit hole, should defenders be judged by G/A too? Has VVD not been a hugely successful signing for Liverpool because he only scores or assists once every ten games? He too was among the top 10 most expensive transfers of all time when he signed, though obviously been taken over by many signings in the 7 years since.

A player like Caicedo makes everyone around him play with more space and freedom so does it really matter that he's not the individual doing the actual scoring or assisting?

Yes, I think that people look at assists when discussing fullbacks and look at how CBs can contribute to goals from set pieces. VVD has a pretty good record for a PL CB, with Terry clear in that regard.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I know but if you’re saying a 100m+ fee is a bargain you really can justify that type of statement in my opinion if the player is a Rodri type player who combines great defensive play with progressive passes, goals and assists.

Stupid things silly people say on the internet. "Worth every penny", "we probably underpaid for him" when a player excels at exactly what you'd expect him to. It was a ridiculous fee (in the same way the Rice one was) and unless they deliver a title or a CL win by being the most instrumental players for their teams or cure cancer or something, it's a silly statement. He is the best DM in the world though.