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What the heck. Chelsea are in for Ugarte and Caicedo and we are going to fund them by buying Mount for 60m - 80m.
Moises Caicedo | Chelsea agree £115M fee | signed for Chelsea
- Thread starter davidmichael
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What the heck. Chelsea are in for Ugarte and Caicedo and we are going to fund them by buying Mount for 60m - 80m.
And this is a problem why? Chelsea want 60m for Mount, we value him at 40ish because of his contract situation. We’ll probably end up paying 50-55. They’ll end up signing Caicedo for 85 or so. 30m more. Which isn’t peanuts. In fact it’s probably what we’ll pay up front (plus add-ons) for Hojlund. Personally, given the budget isn’t unlimited, I’d rather have Mount and Hojlund, rather than just Caicedo. And I’m probably in the minority, but I’d rather have Mount period. I think he is seriously underrated on here, and will be superb at 8 for us. If we can get Rabiot on a free, and rumour had it Kim is joining for 43m, a summer of Kim, Rabiot, Mount and Hojlund, plus a big money striker, is absolutely superb in terms of squad building, and what we need. Partially funded by the sales of Telles, Bailly, Maguire, McTominay, VdB, and Martial. Releases of Tuanzebe, Jones, Weghorst and Sabitzer. Much better squad and probably reduce our wage bill.
I’d much rather have in midfield two players like Rabiot and Mount than one big signing like Rice or Caicedo. Because the former will allow us to sign a reserve striker like Hojlund, who is young and can develop. If budget was unlimited I’d go for Rice and Mount, with Caicedo third on that list, but it isn’t, so I wouldn’t. Caicedo is very good, but I’m really sold on the Mount transfer with everything he can do at both ends of the field. Rabiot gives us options at 8, and essential coverage at 6 for Casemiro. Plus Mount is homegrown, and we are likely to move on several homegrown players from the squad this summer.
I can envision how Pochettino might set up. With Caicedo as the cdm, can cover the wing backs and allow James, gusto, chilwell and hall more license to roam forward. However, I fell that they need more of an number 8 1/2, so they could play a 4-2-3-1 system. I believe poch plan is to have a solid middle, so their wing backs can have more attacking freedom
------------------------Onana
-------------Badishelle - Colwill
-----------------------Caicedo -------------
James ------ Enzo ----- Ugarte---- Chilwell
------------Nkunku ------------neymar*
-------------- Oshimen(Vlahovic) ---------------
That is a scary industrious midfield. Chelsea will probably have the best pressing game next season if something like that happens.
Phew thankful for that
Rabiot hasn’t played as a 6 for a long time, and when he did he had Verratti and Matuidi as partners, a very interchangeable midfield 3. I don’t think it’s responsible to rely our Casemiro cover on someone that doesn’t play that position anymore, out of personal preference, doing all the defensive work covering for Bruno and Mount. Also what happens if he doesn’t want to join us as back up to Bruno, Mount and Casemiro? Then we’re going to have spend money regardless on a replacement. Caicedo just seems like a more logical signing considering all factors.
I think it’s fundamentally flawed to look at a signing like Rabiot as pure back up. Yes he will provide capable back up at 6, agree to disagree there; but in terms of his primary role, this shouldn’t be sold to him as being cover for Mount and Bruno. This is a modern case of having enough players to cover minutes across all competitions. He’ll get as many minutes as the other three and be a part of our regular rotation. There’s just no way to compete for more than one major trophy without having a “first xi” that is actually 15-16 players. And so in that regard, given the lack of quality and likely exits of McTominay, Sabitzer, VdB, and the age profiles of Casemiro and Eriksen, we actually need to bring in 2 midfielders to be truly competitive. Yes we could bring in Caicedo and Rabiot, but in that case I don’t think we have added enough creativity and progression to our midfield, and secondly budgets aren’t viewed in isolation. Paying a much bigger fee for Caicedo May have to be offset against wages, it may also impact our ability to bring in two strikers instead of one.
So with all that considered, I’d say Rabiot and Mount is the best balance of profiles of the options apparently available, and also fits within the wider squad building context better from a budgetary perspective.
Of course if he does join then he’ll get his fair share of minutes as he’s a flexible midfielder, but if his agent asks the question, you have Bruno, Casemiro and you’ve just paid £55/60 million for Mount, where does Rabiot fit into your starting 11? That could be enough for him to consider going elsewhere, especially with an agent that wants the very best. It’s a hypothetical situation but these contingencies play a part in the decision making. In Caicedo you have a world class potential 6 to cover Casemiro short term replace long term, and an 8 to replace Fred on a newly signed contract for around 75/80 million. For me that represents much better value compared to Mount’s 55/60 million on a year left, which also gives a mega loaded direct rival more freedom to strengthen in the window.
Caicedo and Rabiot is a much better deal in my eyes for those reasons, it would also free up Rabiot to play in his favoured position more regularly.
If you sign Caicedo for 80m, he’s going to play. 60m Casemiro is also going to play. How is that going to give him more regular minutes than signing Mount instead? It isn’t. And, as I said, the idea of a “starting xi” is such an outdated concept that I don’t know where to begin. None of that also addresses the budgetary issues I mentioned, especially with regards to filling other positions. Nor does it address the lack of progression and creativity.
Also, it’s a a false economy to think about a signing’s value in terms of the length of contract he has left at his old club. Mount has a year left, correct, but that has zero effect on the value he represents to his new club. All it does is present an opportunity to get him at a slightly reduced fee. Which in this case has a budgetary impact for us. It doesn’t make the player a better or worse fit.
And I’ll go as far as to say, again, that I think Mount and Rabiot is a better balance. I think Mount gives us more of what we need than Caicedo, but I understand that element is purely subjective. I really wouldn’t complain about signing either.
Is Ugarte not an out and out defensive midfielder, great without the ball but perhaps a bit limited with it? So would more likely be him holding with Caceido in front?
Solid team, does it have enough goals in it though?
Mount plays Rabiot’s current role in midfield a lot more than Caicedo does? Ten Hag would use him as the 8 in the easier fixtures, instead of Mount? Caicedo would cost £80 million but he’ll still be rotated being 21 years old at a new club, Caicedo’s purpose as an 8 would come into effect against the harder opponents.
I’m not sure how it’s a false economy when the club has overspent so much over the last few years and it’s possible no one is willing to pay Chelsea’s minimum asking price apart from us? We could wait a year, use 2 of Rabiot, Bruno, Caicedo, Eriksen, Mainoo, Hannibal or Amad in all tactical set ups Mount would play as 8, sign him on a free saving tens of millions.
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That is a misconception that ugarte is limited with the ball. He actually has great technical ability to thrive with the ball on all phase of the pitch. Ugarte is a great ball carrier. He Knows how to drives forward at rapid speed and also enjoys carrying into the final third. Acorrding to stats, he is more successful more than half the time and only gets tackled 34% of the time when at sporting. This shows more than half of his take-ons are successful, making him capable of playing either in front of the cdm or as the cdm(which he was at sporting in the 3 1 6 structure).all in all, it can be either urgarte or Caicedo as the cdm. The reason I put caicedo there is mainly to protect the full back position, while urgate will be the one that drops deep and progress the ball the forward centrally. Two in the same team may be a bit over kill, but with how offensive minded chelsea fullback are, it may actually be needed.
When it comes to goals, nkunku was the top scorer in the Bundesliga last season, oshimen was the top scorer in Italy and neymar is Brazil highest goal scorer, not to mention he has impressive stats at psg as well. There is more than enough goals around with this team. However, neymar and oshimen are just speculations. The alternative is sterling/mudryuk and some other no 9 like vlahovic, Martinez, Holland. With these alternative, there may not be enough goals, unless Pochettino can transform most of these players careers to goalscoring machine like he did with Kane and Mbappe.
So, if successful, that’s three players already bought for the starting 11 when nobody knows what other 47 players are suitable for the team.
Their season has been so bad, playing under managers that don’t play anything like Poch, that it’s almost as if last seasons signings may as well have been bought this summer for all the good that did.
That team would get absolutely carved through.
Those two CBs have played combined about 2000 minutes in the prem and only 3 players have ever played together before
.He had one of his best goal scoring season under Pochettino. Pochettino transformed him to a much better player and this season, he seems to have regressed.Pochettino did not transform Mbappe
Have some shame
Then you don't know football. Urgarte and Caicedo has some of the best defensive statistics in football. No team is easily carving through that team. Cb partnership can be built during preseason and as well as other partnership across the pitch. Saliba and Gabriel barely played a minute together before this season, but they formed a great partnership together. Prem minutes isn't an end all factor that determines whether the players will be successful. I did consider putting fofana and badishelle together, but fofana was so bad against Manchester United, it made me reconsider, while Colwell has been outstanding for BrightonThat team would get absolutely carved through.
Those two CBs have played combined about 2000 minutes in the prem and only 3 players have ever played together before
I don't really think you do if you think you can throw a new team together like that and think it will just work. They're all just going to get the pressing game spot on in pre season? All going to just nail the patterns of play first time? Half that team doesn't even play for Chelsea yet.
I rate Ugarte and Caicedo extremely highly, they're not the problem. It's when you say Colwill has been outstanding for Brighton, which is just not even true, he is pure potential at this point, because he's 20 and not even started for them for the full season.
There is only five new additions to that team in the outfield, barely an whole 11 changes with an asterisks on one of them because I don't think that will happen and it will most likely be just four new additions.
If you compare the pressing and pattern of play to the chelsea team last season, it was non existent. As such, bringing in new faces that can adopt to poch's philosophy over sticking with current players that has shown poor mental fortitude would mean better patterns of play and pressing.
Not sure that you are aware of it, but United did almost the same thing and we changed our spine (bringing in the likes of casemiro, Martinez, varane, eriksen) which as a result allowed us to perform better than last season. Chelsea spine needs more surgery in the midfield department, however I believe that the players they have in defense isn't too bad and they don't need to change as much there. Just get back colwill and let Pochettino work on those other young defenders and even some veteran and Chelsea spine would be in a much better position next season than they were last season.
We badly need this guy in our midfield. Put him in place of Eriksen in that final and our chance of winning increases immeasurably.
Caicedo will move this summer and mark my words - we will regret not signing him for years. Closest thing to Kante I’ve seen And exactly what we need in midfield to compete.
Caicedo will move this summer and mark my words - we will regret not signing him for years. Closest thing to Kante I’ve seen And exactly what we need in midfield to compete.
In your set up, Colwell, Caicedo, Ugarte, Nkunku, Neymar and Vlahovic make it 6, not to mention the GK is new.
Didn't count Colwell as he is part of their academy and has familiarity with Chelsea already. The goalkeeper, I did omit. Regardless, their team need such an overhaul. They can get away without signing neymar because they have sterling, and mudryuk that can play that left attacker role. But now looking at things in hindsight, they seem to be lacking rw option with madueke the only good outlet on that side beside their rwb. i m interested to see what Pochettino do in that area of the pitch. I can see him being creative and making James play as rm with a rf like Nkunku, sterling as other options to mudueke. Or get a left footed attacker.
Any reason we aren't in for him?
I find it strange that the player who happen to be so highly rated atleast here , a must have so to speak by many isn't being pursued by any of the Clubs as primary target .
Arsenal who were in for him in winter it seems are prioritising Rice , Chelsea are in for Ugarte ahead of him , Liverpool are looking to wrap up Mac Allister purchase and United priority it seems is Mount .
It's hard to figure out .
Why do you think it is?
It can be a number of reasons. First of all Caicedo is still very young and this season was really his breakthrough year. The big clubs may want to see if he can replicate it for at least one more season before spending big.
There is also the question of style of play, perhaps the big clubs are looking for different types of midfielders than Caicedo.
Finally there is the question of the willingness of Brighton and Caicedo to move. There could have been initial talks between different clubs where Brighton have made it clear they are only.willing to see Mac Allister this summer and not Caicedo too or maybe setting a ridiculous price that no team is willing to meet.
Clubs have requirement for different profiles in midfield and unlike some on here they actually don't believe Caicedo is anything more than good CDM and even then they don't think of him as a generational talent in that role that they can't afford to miss atleast not yet .
His perception amongst United fanbase is greater than his actual talent and it seems isn't actually shared by wider footballing world and rightfully so at the moment .
All very fair points just like to add that Brighton manager has on the record said that Mac Allister and Caicedo might have played their last game for Brighton .
This
We want Declan Rice and Mount apparently...
I would agree with you. I rate him highly but from what I can see I have the same opinion as you.
He seems to be choice b and c for the top clubs.
He is only rated by united fans due to his comments on wanting to play for United.
Because it makes a lot or sense. I’ve lost count how many good players we’ve passed up.
Quite obvious nonsense, are you just wumming in every thread now?
He loves Rice, anyone competing with Rice as a signing will get this treatment. Did the same with Tchouaméni.
Pretty much
Price tag?
Ah fair enough I didn't realise he said that. In that case I assume it's more related to the other points.
That being said I'd be super happy if we were able to get Caicedo as one of our summer signings.
He’ll cost the same if not less than his piers.
Name them! Zakaria?
Just because you dont agree doesnt make you right. All i know is more top managers are interested in Rice than Caicedo, so it feels like im on the right end of the market. Im not on the 'pretty please sign everyone who isnt English' fanbase so i dont know why that makes me a Wum when i can value the quality of a great english player to a great english club.
Look at this video on Caicedo - the guy is literally bashing & pushing in to his opponents before intercepting the ball - its pure delusion thinking that he will get that freedom at united
^^
EtH is still looking for his FDJ style player. Caicedo for 80 million is not going to be someone EtH is looking at...especially when United are somewhat under a tight budget.
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