Fully agree. You can't go toe to toe with these insane pressing styles unless you're prepared accept dropping the tray of drinks and end up stuffing the whole lot up.
More possession would work with United, not hoofing ball
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
That's what I was talking about in the comment you quoted. If you think we could have counter-attacked better, fine. But that doesn't mean we always need to hold onto the ball.
LVG’s record v City: W2 D1 L1 F5 A3; all in the league
Jose’s to date: W1 D1 L2 F3 A4; the win coming in the EFL Cup
Just saying
The way we set up, inviting pressure we we're always likely to concede, whether we "gifted" the goals or not.
I am frustrated by Jose's negativity in big games, as we can be deadly on the front foot.
I'm not all for a "possession" based game, I like counter attacking football and believe we are deadly at it. My issue is the fear of our players in the biggest games, we looked scared of city, hoofed it long and didn't look like we could string a pass together.
We looked like a team with no quality, And just rolling over at home is a bit of a blow. City are good yes, but we made it easy for them in truth.
Yeah we should dominate possession. We should also score more goals and keep more clean sheets.
I struggle to comprehend how people can watch football for years and still not comprehend what has happened in front of their own eyes
City (Pep) are notoriously good at winning back possession quickly. They swarm the ball high up the pitch. Jose has always favoured beating the high press with long balls. Especially in this Utd side where only really Pogba can retain possession and pass forward under pressure.
The tactic was simple and has been deployed many times by Jose. Long diagonals up to Lukuka. The idea is for the City CBs to be forced to head the ball back into dangerous areas and for us to pick up possession behind their midfield.
Unfortunately, it didn’t work. Lingard was meant to be the primary beneficiary of this tactic but didn’t really get in the game. The quality of the balls up to Lukaku was also shocking. Rojo and De Gea in particular kept punting it straight over Rom’s head.
If we had tried to play possession football we would have been embarrassed. If we had tried to be more open and go at City, we would have been embarrassed. They have better players than us in every department and will have for at least another season or two.
Instead of crying about it focus on the positives. We were on the verge of footballing obscurity two years ago, now we are at least 2nd in the PL, won our CL group and are in two domestic cups. We are also starting to assemble a good squad of players. Soon we won’t have to watch Herrera mindlessly knocking two yard passes to the CBs or Valencia drilling crosses at opponents shinpads etc...etc...
Then we will be able to take on City properly
I struggle to comprehend how people can watch football for years and still not comprehend what has happened in front of their own eyes
City (Pep) are notoriously good at winning back possession quickly. They swarm the ball high up the pitch. Jose has always favoured beating the high press with long balls. Especially in this Utd side where only really Pogba can retain possession and pass forward under pressure.
The tactic was simple and has been deployed many times by Jose. Long diagonals up to Lukuka. The idea is for the City CBs to be forced to head the ball back into dangerous areas and for us to pick up possession behind their midfield.
Unfortunately, it didn’t work. Lingard was meant to be the primary beneficiary of this tactic but didn’t really get in the game. The quality of the balls up to Lukaku was also shocking. Rojo and De Gea in particular kept punting it straight over Rom’s head.
If we had tried to play possession football we would have been embarrassed. If we had tried to be more open and go at City, we would have been embarrassed. They have better players than us in every department and will have for at least another season or two.
Instead of crying about it focus on the positives. We were on the verge of footballing obscurity two years ago, now we are at least 2nd in the PL, won our CL group and are in two domestic cups. We are also starting to assemble a good squad of players. Soon we won’t have to watch Herrera mindlessly knocking two yard passes to the CBs or Valencia drilling crosses at opponents shinpads etc...etc...
Then we will be able to take on City properly
All the "Jose Bus parking" rhetoric gets spouted all the time, but nobody bats an eyelid when Sir King Pep MBE, OBE plays without a striker for almost half an hour...
There are major differences though, Pep was leading and he didn't have to win.
If we were winning and Jose did the same there would be another ten threads moaning tbf.
If Lukaku had a better game yesterday we could have easily won. These threads are strange
I don’t mind giving up possession but nearly every time we hoofed, we gave the ball back to City. If someone did manage to bring the ball down then he would find himself isolated from red shirts but surrounded by a pack of blue shirts very quickly.
Nah, specially not against this City team. There is justified moaning in parking the bus in a must win match. You can make a lot of things with"ifs"
But he was utterly negative after he was gifted the goal. But its Pep so he can get away with it.
Honestly I don't see Mourinho getting criticized for that if the situation applied to us. Being conservative when winning makes sense, being conservative from the go when you have to win is very different.
Our tactics were to contain and play on the transition and counter. They only resembled 'parking the bus" because we spent most of first half passing with no composure. Once that changed we immediately forced errors from them and scored. That is why after Lukaku's gift Pep went negative. If we were parking the bus we wouldnt had 5 shots ont target to their 7
I'd have taken 0-0 yesterday. Possession football + counter attacking was exactly what we needed yesterday. Sit back, safely circulate the ball in your own half draw them in, make them press.
They will either;
- sit back and let you gave in, in which case great, we are safe.
- push up together leaving room behind for our 4 very fast forward players to expose on the counter.
Even if we lose the ball we've got 6-8 men in our half to recover it. It's an approach without risk but it would deny City the choice to play thier favoured game.
Yep, about spot on.
Exactly, for example, we were quite defensive after going 2-0 up on Arsenal, I was ok with that because we were protecting a lead against an attacking side. Going defensive from the off against City was the wrong tactic as it took the pressure off their weakness (their defence) and allowed their forwards to put us under pressure constantly. City will do that to plenty of teams regardless but when we decided to aimlessly hoof the ball into the other half it just played into their hands.
In order for the hoof ball to stop we need from our back four to stop treating the ball like hot iron more than we need a drastic change in tactics. When your attacking plays are always initiated in areas deep in your own half of the pitch, these are also the areas in which you need calmness and composure and these are the areas from which you set your own match rhythm. Another thing of notice is that the clearances from the back have to be in areas where our midfielders are in a favourable position to win possession and start the attacking move. When you clear the ball in the stands or in the opposition's half, like our players do most of the time, you just offer them the opportunity to pin you down.
Possession football is not the only way to win titles. Furthermore, in order to play possession football with a swagger and be successful at the same time you need a set of exquisitely talented players. Both Real Madrid and Barcelona do it in Spain in an environment that allows them to make much more money than the rest of La Liga. Bayern Munich does it in a league where no oligarchs are allowed to enter and they can monopolize the pool of local talent. City is basically a state-funded club with unlimited resources.
Then there's the Guardiola effect. Best manager in the world of football right now by a country mile. City would challenge for the title nonetheless but the huge gap between them and the rest of the league and more so the way they've achieved that are of his own making. There's simply no other manager who can deploy a midfield of three with two pure attacking-minded players in it plus two FBs who push up the pitch and manage to have his team in such a strong position.
In any case, our biggest issue up till now is that we've missed Pogba in far more games than we thought we would have. And Mourinho likes to build up his counter-attacks through the central channels. With no ball carrier and with erratic passing from the back that's not possible. Since we're not pressing at all the only viable option (without Pogba) seems to be the utilization of the flanks instead of hoofing the ball and the attempt to get the ball towards Rash and Tony with the possibility to go 1v1 instead of asking players like the aforementioned two (plus Lingard, Mata etc.) to challenge for possessions between the lines when it's clear as daylight that this is not their strongest suit.
Possession football is not the only way to win titles. Furthermore, in order to play possession football with a swagger and be successful at the same time you need a set of exquisitely talented players. Both Real Madrid and Barcelona do it in Spain in an environment that allows them to make much more money than the rest of La Liga. Bayern Munich does it in a league where no oligarchs are allowed to enter and they can monopolize the pool of local talent. City is basically a state-funded club with unlimited resources.
Then there's the Guardiola effect. Best manager in the world of football right now by a country mile. City would challenge for the title nonetheless but the huge gap between them and the rest of the league and more so the way they've achieved that are of his own making. There's simply no other manager who can deploy a midfield of three with two pure attacking-minded players in it plus two FBs who push up the pitch and manage to have his team in such a strong position.
In any case, our biggest issue up till now is that we've missed Pogba in far more games than we thought we would have. And Mourinho likes to build up his counter-attacks through the central channels. With no ball carrier and with erratic passing from the back that's not possible. Since we're not pressing at all the only viable option (without Pogba) seems to be the utilization of the flanks instead of hoofing the ball and the attempt to get the ball towards Rash and Tony with the possibility to go 1v1 instead of asking players like the aforementioned two (plus Lingard, Mata etc.) to challenge for possessions between the lines when it's clear as daylight that this is not their strongest suit.
Say it all you want, if you're going to judge LVG based on that then good luck. The rest of us that actually watch United week in week out will tell you LVG was a dutch master that could outdraw Rembrandt any day of the week. A useless old sod well past his best. Fergie got smashed 6-1 by City, what does that tell you? feck all!
Whoever your manager is, Matic and Herrera can't compete against KDB and Silva in possession. It was clear without Pogba we had zero chance of competing with them in the middle. If you think otherwise you're deluding yourself.
City weren't as good as they are now.
I actually do agree with many of the points criticising Jose right now. But claiming the mighty Lvg would beat Pep's City is pure fantasy. Maybe a young Lvg of Ajax fame but not the one United got.
It's entirely possible to compete despite having weaker players in one area of the pitch. Otherwise the best midfield would win every single game and we all know that isn't the case. It's about getting the most out of your players and making sure you exploit the opposition's weaknesses rather than them yours.
Also just because you have those two in midfield and they're obviously good footballers, doesn't mean you have to keep resorting to football from the Flintstone era.
This is the exact same thing Pep needed as well? See last season.
Getting the best out of our players doesn't correlate with being able to go toe on toe with KDB and Silva in possession battle if you have Matic and Herrera. Try to be realistic and honest with your self.
People are comparing this to the LVG days but a balance of possession and counter-attacking play is needed. We are not asking for 70% possession, but keeping the ball for more than just 30% of the time and creating chances might be a start. If people think the tactics yesterday are acceptable then I'm sorry they are wrong. Long ball hit and hope just added more pressure as we gave the ball away.
I am being realistic. I'm asking us to play quality football, not out possession City. You can do that even if you're weaker in one area. And we didn't. Forget good, we were rubbish.
Well that's enough internet for me today. Not going to see anything better than this for a while.In order to play quality football you need first to have a proper midfield that can attack, if you don't then forget it. How can you build your own attacks if your midfield is struggling to get the ball out of your half ? How can you build your attack if your midfield hoofs each ball because they can't dribble or go forward ? Sorry but I can't imagine any manager in the world that tell his players to hold the ball aimlessly like this. This is a serious problem in our midfield that became clear and clear each time we play without Pogba.
I don't think our problem is in defense or attack or manager, it's in the midfield, at least 90% of it in the midfield.
Remember 2011 final when we couldn't string 2 passes in a row and Barca embarrassed us. It wasn't because SAF told his players to set back and defend, impossible, that's not SAF. It was because our midfield was rubbish, failed to compete with Xavi and Ineiesta and the result was what you saw. The problem in this was in the midfield alone.
Want to play a quality football and get the best of our attackers, find fist a midfield that has composure and can attack.
I find the 'if we tried to play City on the floor, we'd get murdered' narrative pretty depressing. Not just because it suggests we're a rich Stoke compared to Citehlona but also because you can clearly mix it up and do both.
I don't think it's 'pragmatic' to say "I reckon we're shite at passing compared to City, so let's just forget that". People don't like the notion but that's just lacking balls.
I don't think it's 'pragmatic' to say "I reckon we're shite at passing compared to City, so let's just forget that". People don't like the notion but that's just lacking balls.
Get better midfielders, basically ball carriers like poggers. Herrera is a complete liability. We can certainly play better with better players.
Why is our midfield struggling to get the ball out of our half? Matic was Jose's buy. Herrera was superb last season. If they aren't good enough why didn't we sign other players? Also, why is it just the midfield who gets the ball out? Do your fullbacks not play a part? Do your centre backs not play a part? Does your number 10 not matter - ours has forgotten football apparently (signed by Jose)? How about the CF who can surely hold up the ball (also signed by Jose)?
Now comes the time when you tell me the entire team is poor and Jose is such an unlucky manager to be in charge of a team with such enormous resources.
I agree, counter-attack is alive and well. In fact we counter-attacked Arsenal the other day to pretty good effect.
However effective counterattacking relies on (among other things)proactive pressure on the ball, quick transitions and clinical finishing, none of which we could produce against City which is why we were comfortably second best to their system.
Our witless, gutless attempt at using the counter was what killed us against a fine team, not that we opted for the counter in the first place.
Matic isn't supposed to be the creator, he's supposed to be the destroyer that passes the ball to someone that creates the attack, not create it by himself, and Herrera was the one who played that role last season as well, not an attacking player. In each game Pogba didn't play last season and Herrera had to play alongside Fellaini or Carrick we looked as terrible as this season, because we lacked anyone that can drive the team forward.
If you're asking your number 10 to drop deep and get the ball and then run because your midfield is terrible, you're just creating more problems, because it will isolate the forwards farther and farther, and the opponent will have very easy solution go press and cut the ball before it even pass the half line. You can't ask your fullbacks to take the whole line running because you have a terrible midfield. You can't aske your CBs to take the ball to the front row in a big game leaving spaces behind. You're not giving any solution, you're just farther increasing the problem with this suggestion.
Midfield is the key to play a proper football. Each excellent team that win major things have a midfield taphat can attack. City have KDB and Silva, Madrid have Kroos and Modric, Barca Pep had Xavi and Insista, us during SAF era we always had a very strong midfield, Scholes, Keane, Beckham, Carrick, and when our midfield became shite during his last years the quality of football dropped heavily but we were still grinding wins because of our character. These aren't coincidence. You can tweak any position but without a proper midfield you can't succeed or play a quality football.
We have good resources in defense, and our attack is young and promising ( apart from Mikhi and Mata ) but in the department of an attacking midfield, we have Pogba and Pogba only. No one can do even half the job he does, thus we look completely devoopid of ideas without him.
And that's Mourinho's job. He needs to solve this badly. We should get a proper CM in Jan not even wait till the summer, otherwise this will get repeated every time Pogba gets absent. Currently we're really doing the best of what we can with our midfield options. They can do nothing more of what they are doing. That's their abilities and we have to deal with this.
Reading these posts I must say that people look for different things in games. If I didn't see the game myself I would say that we were talking about two completely different games. Actually I suppose that is quite true in a way as the first half and the second half were completely different games. The second half was entertaining and we showed we can go toe to toe with City and as they say you create your own luck, City were lucky (helped on by Utd). I would've like to have seen the Arsenal De Gea yesterday, I saw many people thought he was our MOM, he had nothing to do except take the ball out of the net and one decent save. Maybe if De Gea was a bit more like his number two who is quick to come off his line he might have been able to save one of those goals. All in all City were better than we were, no only in play but aggression and desire and that Utd is to blame for not showing the real desire and aggression we should be showing in a home games. It doesn't help showing that aggression after the game in the tunnel brawl, they should be showing it on the field.
Some of you here need to chill out. City's goals last night was not down to great skill from open play especially the Lukaku blunder, he got away with it against Arsenal but not this week.
City played a better 1st half and looked more dangerous than us overall. Pep arrived at City with a lot better team than JM inherited.
Our problem is our connecting play, our Att is left isolated and there is not enough service into him. Also Lukaku needs to be more clinical, he misses way to many chances for a Man Utd number 9.
This summer we will see some strong additions to our team and that will close the gap even if they strengthen too.
City played a better 1st half and looked more dangerous than us overall. Pep arrived at City with a lot better team than JM inherited.
Our problem is our connecting play, our Att is left isolated and there is not enough service into him. Also Lukaku needs to be more clinical, he misses way to many chances for a Man Utd number 9.
This summer we will see some strong additions to our team and that will close the gap even if they strengthen too.
I honestly cannot believe there are people that genuinely believe this. It's truly mind boggling.
Our approach to big games has been hampered by injuries to key players. No Jones, Bailly, Fellaini or Pogba is always going to throw up serious issues. Herrera has been seriously below par this season and the difference between having him in the middle compared to Pogba is the difference between winning and losing big games. We had a similar approach against Arsenal, who created far more clear cut chances than City, and we won 1-3.
Obviously, you can't guarantee your best players are always going to be fit. It's difficult to account for though, especially in big games. We've been really good this season for the most part, City though have been extremely fortunate so far (2 lucky goals yesterday ffs!) with very few injuries, last minute goals etc. They also have more quality and that's why they are so far ahead at the moment. The difference between the two sides isn't that great though and I expect with the right recruitment we'll be better placed to compete.
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Every time we don't win a game, another LVG apologist crops up. He left the club a year and a half ago so even if you want to criticise what is happening now, LVG is utterly fecking irrelevant.
It'd make sense if Lukaku could actually hold up the ball and win headers.
the tactic was fine....bypass their press/midfield where they are strong and put constant pressure on their back 4 , which is weak.
the issue came was the quality of long ball. there was nothing of note for martial, rashford or lukaku to work with. so all we did was gift the ball back to city to continue attacking.
what was annoying was you dont have to go long with every ball, play a few sideways passes, a little possession in our half before going long. give the forwards a chance to get into position or make movement.
City soon realized all they had to do was press our defense, and the ball would end up being passed back to De Gea who promptly launched it long. so they got the ball back.
the issue came was the quality of long ball. there was nothing of note for martial, rashford or lukaku to work with. so all we did was gift the ball back to city to continue attacking.
what was annoying was you dont have to go long with every ball, play a few sideways passes, a little possession in our half before going long. give the forwards a chance to get into position or make movement.
City soon realized all they had to do was press our defense, and the ball would end up being passed back to De Gea who promptly launched it long. so they got the ball back.
Having more possession is not really the issue. It's what we do when we HAVE the possession is the problem.
Possession stats mean nothing to me. City were always going to dominate the possession as that's how they play. But when we actually got it off them, our use of the ball was woeful. Treat the bloody thing with respect. Don't just feck it off like it's a ticking time bomb.
Don't really know who to blame here. I find it hard to see Jose telling them to quickly punt it anywhere when we did actually get hold of the ball. There's no doubt that he wanted to play more direct, but we wasn't even doing that. Playing direct would imply fizzing it into our attackers in one or two movements. We just fecking thumped it into no man's land.
It was so disheartening and disappointing. Surely 11 points is too much, and to end it with such a meek display is frustrating beyond belief.
Possession stats mean nothing to me. City were always going to dominate the possession as that's how they play. But when we actually got it off them, our use of the ball was woeful. Treat the bloody thing with respect. Don't just feck it off like it's a ticking time bomb.
Don't really know who to blame here. I find it hard to see Jose telling them to quickly punt it anywhere when we did actually get hold of the ball. There's no doubt that he wanted to play more direct, but we wasn't even doing that. Playing direct would imply fizzing it into our attackers in one or two movements. We just fecking thumped it into no man's land.
It was so disheartening and disappointing. Surely 11 points is too much, and to end it with such a meek display is frustrating beyond belief.
We do need more possession.
City at this point will dominate possession in a matchup. But ideally they should only get the ball back after a goal, shot on target, or high risk ball deep in their area. We should be able to evade their press, find passes in our half, and effectively move the ball with speed to their half. We are a top club, and the expectation that we should keep the ball long enough to manufacture a high quality chance most of the time is not an unreasonable one.
The problem is, possession is conflated with LVG's time at United (which wasn't totally pointless). I do feel that the fabled Heynekes side was really deadly because they were equally comfortable with possession, as they were without it. And unless we learn to use the ball to our advantage when we have it without hoofing it up, Jose won't be here for long.
City at this point will dominate possession in a matchup. But ideally they should only get the ball back after a goal, shot on target, or high risk ball deep in their area. We should be able to evade their press, find passes in our half, and effectively move the ball with speed to their half. We are a top club, and the expectation that we should keep the ball long enough to manufacture a high quality chance most of the time is not an unreasonable one.
The problem is, possession is conflated with LVG's time at United (which wasn't totally pointless). I do feel that the fabled Heynekes side was really deadly because they were equally comfortable with possession, as they were without it. And unless we learn to use the ball to our advantage when we have it without hoofing it up, Jose won't be here for long.