Ok we sell him 2027 for £65m if he doesn’t work out fir us at 25 to PSG or Bayern he will be a marketable asset, why are you so against this signing?
Morgan Rogers
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
Ok well the game is about opinions and on this we differ, that’s ok.
Why is more of what you have a bad thing if it's more of your most threatening attacker?!
You know who Arsenal rotate on the LW? Trossard, Martinelli, and Eze - 3 right-footed cut-inside and shoot merchants.
You know who Arsenal rotate on the RW? Saka, Madueke and Dowman - 3 left-footed cut-inside and shoot merchants.
They don't complain it's "more of the same" - it is simply what the role needs.
It's like somehow trying to complain that having Dalot and Mazraoui as your two RB options is silly because they are somehow "more of the same" as each other, because they are right-footed defenders. It is rather just a case of them being players who are good at what the role calls for.
Sorry but your olden days spiel is nonsense. I don’t know what age you are but even from United, one of the best crossers on either foot was Denis Irwin. Outside of United you had Dicks, Pearce, Nilsson, Rob Jones, Staunton, Dixon, Winterburn, Ashley Cole, etc. and more recently Robertson & TAA. And btw these guys got up and down the pitch all day long. Go and watch some dvd of United from the early 90s. Goals and entertainment, how dare we want both!
Many of our goals was assisted by ‘old fashioned’ wing play by Sharpe or Kanchelskis crossing the ball, yet they also were capable of scoring themselves.
Your argument is crossing is up to the fullbacks. That means more financial outlay as a good fullback is going to cost 50m.
You talk about tactics which are skin to the styles of Pep, ETH, Amorim, Slot, where the fullbacks invert into midfield. That didn’t work for us. If you notice now Carrick has reverted to a simpler setup so you find Dalot further up the pitch (shaw can’t do it anymore). That is a return to old tactics, not modern tactics. In old systems we had wingers and fullbacks who can cross. Now, we have arguably nobody that can provide consistent crosses.
Lastly if we’re moving away from crosses why did we buy Sesko? Also why are CBs who can head better defenders than the likes of Lindelof who can’t? Because crosses are still important in the modern game
Would possibly take for a BM/Cunha-fee, despite the comments from Villa fans on their forums regarding some of his deficiencies/elements of the 'sight-test' & certain statistical streakiness. Prices of close to 100m are insane though ; even 80m is too much, especially considering United aren't working with City/PSG/Madrid-style cash reserves and have areas of the squad to build. M Mane from Wolves for 35m or so as 3rd midfield signing who can also play on the wing, plus Cunha, Dorgu and a youth-teamer is probably best for that left hand attacking side unless a wildly fortuitous market opportunity comes up.
Rogers has done it 2 seasons in a row - it is not just one "hot streak". His G+A per minute under Carrick at Boro in the Champ the season before was also very good.
Why not? The likes of Eze and Madueke don't start for Arsenal every week, but seem content enough.
Arsenal is your example? A team who have struggled with attacking and relied more on defense?
None of the arsenal wide players have had a good season.
The problem with over specialising is that you breed in weakness, as soon as you need something else you don't have it. Recruiting him solves 0 problems.
Well... obviously the modern day Robertson and TAA...
I'll quote this part again, as it clearly went in one ear and out the other with you:
"A British study evaluating the performance development in the Premier League from the 2006/07 season to the 2012/13 season, shows that full backs have not always been delivering such impressive numbers. During this period an increase of 35% in high-intensity runs and as much as 62% in sprint distance, despite almost the same total distance run, could be measured for full backs. These values represented the largest increase of all considered positions.
The cause of this increase was seen in changes in systems and tactics, away from rigid formations and towards dynamic gameplay philosophies. Full-backs are no longer only concerned with defensive tasks by coaches but may and should become increasingly involved in the attacking efforts of their team. Be it creating majority situations, playing diagonal passes or even crosses and shots.."
https://planet.training/the-modern-day-full-back
80m 
Mane is also sort of a Spurs-signing if you ask me. Hasn't assisted or scored a goal in 11 games now, with full time given. He's actually nly on 2 goals and 2 assists all season. Those are Stewart Downing-numbers.
Imagine if he didn't even play regularly and was benched. We already have Dorgu who's better.
Forgive me for citing the team winning the PL this year and who finished 2nd last year....
How about the team who won the PL last year as well? LW - Diaz and Gakpo, right-footed cut-inside and shoot players. RW - Salah and Elliott, left-footed cut-inside and shoot players.
Where are the examples for this "something else" which is apparently so useful and needed as the alternative?! The sum-total seems to be something that happened 30 years ago, and Raphinha being briefly forced to play LW to accommodate Yamal playing his favoured role as a left-footed RW.
Which top managers at top teams today regularly have their "something different" being a left-footed LW, or right-footed RW, coming on to deliver crosses? Arteta? Guardiola? Enrique? Klopp? Nope... They tend to bring on fresher pairs of legs who might not be having as much of an off-day, but who are typically not tasked with playing in a completely different role.
Which of the world's best players are there who favour being a left-footed LW or right-footed RW?! Don't really exist. There's reasons for these things.
Yeah, Mane doesn't scream "exceptional talent" to me. Even someone like Ajayi from the academy could be as good as him. He seems a pointless signing who really would not add much in either the short- or long-term.
I'm well aware of the role of the "modern-day full back". We currently don't have one, that's my point. To spend 80m+ on a player that still requires us to purchase that player doesn't make a lot of sense when we have a midfield rebuild, LB and experienced striker to budget for.
Also, the idea that fullbacks never overlapped in "the olden days" past is not based in any fact. We had Irwin, players like Carlos, Lizarazu, Breitner exsisted you know. Also your fullback can provide the width by overlapping, that allows space for a winger to cross. They could also mix it up every now and again. Football isn't a solved game and there are multiple ways to be effective and people even did some very forward thinking things in the "olden days" without advent of data.
I don't think he's an immediate impact-maker, but given his age and physical attributes, versatility, good decision-making etc and factoring in who he 's played for, & it being his first full season in the PL, I think there's a decision to be made re. potential. Which is why the club pays scouts, Vivell etc rather than just playing (hopefully) a half-interested version of Football Manager and going for the guy with the best short-term stats.
Mainoo also doesn't have spectacular stats in terms of assists or goals, even before 'mean Mr Amorim' took over (in practice there was 'blame' on both sides, and Amorim was better than his win-stats showed, even if ultimately not quite the right guy for this Utd squad at this stage of his career; Mainoo has improved physically in recent times), but even at 18 had qualities that contributed to the team. Like MM, those early performances came in an erratic team and showed the player also had areas to improve, even taking into account questions of team balance and style relating to the manager etc.
I'm all for, say, taking a punt on a guy from Ligue 1 with similar qualities but better stats at a similar or slightly cheaper price, but INEOS have placed a premium on PL-proven, so that may limit the number of 'money-ball' punts we see. Meanwhile, the larger question of recruiting a LW/LFW this summer with this budget and these broader team needs remains.
I’ll say this once, I’ve noticed you respond to people like this. If this is what you think is acceptable we will move you on
I don't think many necessarily want a very different player, but they need to offer more than just cut in and shoot. Look at Kvaratskhelia, Vinicius, Doue, Olise for example, all excellent dribblers and able to take their man on time and time again successfully, and they can also go on the outside. Rogers isn't "slow", but he's not fast enough to do that from the wing. He's great at carrying the ball through the middle with sheer power, but as a dribbler? Not very good. The point is that we already have Cunha who can do that and already plays in his lesser position, so it doesn't make sense to sign an identical player to play in that position. We shouldn't even have Cunha there to begin with. He should be the LW back up.
Arsenal are not winning because of their attack, their attack has been criticised.
Liverpool last year had different types of players, Salah is not a cut inside and shoot player, he's a technical player who can do everything.
I never mentioned which foot was on either side, that's a strawman.
As I've said before, I'm a big fan of Rogers. I think he's shown qualities you'd want in a United player.
But it's not the time or place. He has to be more consistent. He has to be more influential and dominate games. He's capable of magic, but it's too easy for games to just bypass him.
He was having a great season when Villa were doing well. They're struggling now,and his performances have blended into the struggle. He needs to stand out.
He has to take his game to another level, before he gets considered by big clubs.
But it's not the time or place. He has to be more consistent. He has to be more influential and dominate games. He's capable of magic, but it's too easy for games to just bypass him.
He was having a great season when Villa were doing well. They're struggling now,and his performances have blended into the struggle. He needs to stand out.
He has to take his game to another level, before he gets considered by big clubs.
Lets hope he prefer Man Utd over City, Liverpool, PSG, Bayern and Madrid by then. Good chance he will if we get good again. But will off course also demand higher fee and higher wages.
I like the prospect of Rogers exactly because there is potential for more. If Man Utd identify him it must be because the club think they can help him reach his potential.
If he goes somewhere else, it is what it is. If we want to challenge at the very top again, we need players with not just ability, but personality, and the drive to take on the pressure that this club puts players under.
Rogers has the ability, no doubt. When Villa were on form, everything they did well, went through him. But when Villa are off, he is usually one of the worst players and struggles with the basics. He has to prove he has the mentality to succeed under difficult circumstances. If he can't do that for Villa, he's not doing it here. We are the club that, despite being terrible for 13 years now, everybody plays us like it's their cup final. We need players who thrive in that environment.
Rogers was clocked in the Champion's League last season at 33.8 km/hr (the same as Harvey Barnes) - which is 0.1 km/hr slower than Olise, 0.1 km/hr faster than Kvaratskhelia, and 0.8 km/hr faster than Doue.
Last season Rogers was 75th percentile in the PL out of AM/Wingers for 'Successful Dribbles' (take-ons completed successfully), and 92nd percentile in the Champion's League for the same metric. This season in the PL it has dropped to 40th percentile, but part of that will be fatigue and Villa's poor form. Regardless, his pace is plenty adequate, and he's demonstrated that he is an above average dribbler. With the ability to rotate him to keep him fresh, combined with him continuing to develop as a player, it would be plenty good enough.
Amad and Cunha are both at c.60th percentile for dribbles in the PL for comparison. You want to know who really can't dribble? Mbeumo, at only 7th percentile...
Cunha is currently United's biggest goal threat from attacking midfield - seems a very strange thing to say.
Mainoo is a pure CM - you wouldn't necessarily even measure his contribution in terms of goals and assists.
Mane has been allowed a much more attacking role at Wolves, which is why it would come more in to the equation.
I'm not just playing FM based on stats - I'm also going by my own observations. Mane seems rather haphazard, both in technique and in the "decision-making' which you oddly cite. I would suspect scouts would observe that Mainoo's technical ability and decision making at 18 were clearly 2 levels above where Mane's are. He's a cheap punt if you're already blessed with more proven attacking talent (which United still lack), and if you don't have any potentially better players in your academy only a year or two behind who could very soon overtake him (which United could well do in Ajayi and Gabriel). One way or another I'm sure there'll be plenty of more exciting attacking players available out there than Mane soon enough, whether at United, in the PL, or from Brazil etc. He doesn't seem "generational" and worth putting above other priorities.
I think Mane probably benefits from the low expectations of the rest of the Wolves team, and that Wolves are set-up for him to lead them on the counter. Mateus Cunha's goals have decreased a fair bit from moving from Wolves to United in no small part because he gets less time and space at United. He still manages to score now, but it is probably more difficult than at Wolves. Considering Mane's output at Wolves is already waaaay lower than Cunha's, I suspect at United it would drop to basically zero.
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This isn't true though - he's more often than not rated as Villa's best performing attacking player this season when you go through both their wins and defeats on all of whoscored, sofascore and fotmob. He's still Villa's highest rated attacking player overall this season on all three platforms. He was their highest rated attacking player on all three platforms last season as well. The only Villa player rated higher than him across all three platforms this season is the also impressive Tielemans.
Rogers opened the scoring in Villa's Champion's League QF first leg tie away at PSG last season - are those not "difficult circumstances" enough?...
Are you forgetting that Rogers scored 2 screamers vs United in a 2-1 win in December? Is that not "thriving" enough?...
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I genuinely wonder how many of the posters here apparently turning their nose up at the 23 year-old Rogers, wanted United to sign the notably worse player, then 29 years-old, Watkins from Villa for big money last summer?....
It's very odd.
It's very odd.
I didn't want Watkins. But we actually needed a striker. In this case, Rogers plays the same position as our best player, would be completely unnecessary.
The circumstance fans would have wanted Watkins was also a much cheaper deal than the insane fee it would take to get Rogers also.
Come on, we all know that CL top speed is bollocks.. it may be true, but it lacks context. Did they do it with the ball at their feet? Was it a counter? How is their acceleration? Can they dribble while running at a high speed? Archie Gray's top speed in CL is 34.8 km/h, Anthony Gordon is significantly faster than Mbappé etc. We can see Rogers play every game, and he is not known for his pace while dribbling from the wing. And he is obviously not quicker than Olise, Kvaratskhelia or Doue.
Okay, and this season it's 35.7%, and even more important, he barely tries to dribble. It's not his game, and it makes a ton of difference having a winger that can actually dribble at high speed and take defenders on. We have none other than Cunha, and even he isn't that great at it, but better than Rogers. If we're going to pay 80m for another CAM who can play LW, it would be incredibly poor business and there are far better signings that can be made with that money in a position in need. Add 10m and we can probably get Diomande.
You say it's "obvious"? Oh right, that's all the conclusive evidence I need then. Thanks for clearing that up...
Rogers' dribble stats last season in the PL were notably better than anything United's players have managed this season.
His output at LW is better than his output at CAM.
I have already said numerous times in this thread that Diomande would be my first-choice signing, given both his output and also his two-footedness allowing him to both in- and outside and play on both flanks. Rogers is basically one of the very few other players I think it would still be worthwhile United signing if Diomande is somehow unobtainable.
You said you've watched the players. Would you not say it is? Is it not obvious that Van de Ven is quicker than Ruben Dias, for example?
Cunha's dribble stats last season in the PL were better than Rogers have managed this - and last season. Why is last season relevant now? It's not even important, because even if they are better than our players, they're still mediocre, which is what I'm saying. We have no players capable of dribbling properly. Rogers won't change that.
Means very little. Output isn't everything. His general play and strengths belong at CAM. Harry Wilson has scored more goals than Cunha and Rogers, doesn't mean he's better.
Yes, but not ridiculously so.
Rogers 24/25 left, Cunha 24/25 right. This is also in the context of Cunha playing for a counter-attacking Wolves and being basically their sole out-ball (he was 97th percentile for 'Share of Team Progression'!...)
Why is last season not relevant?!
Last season was 75th percentile for 'Successful Dribbles' in the PL and 92nd percentile for 'Successful Dribbles in the CL. Those stats are clearly above average and therefore by definition not "mediocre". Rogers has proven he is capable of being a very good dribbler.
This is Rogers vs Kvaratskhelia in the Champion's League last season. Rogers on the left!...
Apparently he’s third in PL for distance covered which could explain some of his reduced output stats this year.
But as a benchmark, Its reasuring to see he puts it all out on the field.
Looking at his highlights when he plays on the left he operates there rather than drift infield early, alot of his key highlights show him cutting in at the edge of the box. Using his strength and effective close control to progress the ball.
I think he’d be a weapon both centrally and on the left. Great powerful shot, good press resistance, strength, ability to carry the ball.
The only sticking point on the forum seems to be discomfort on price. But I question how many are still bothered by Sesko’s or Mbeumo fee? Would it have been better to pay 15-20m less on either of those players and purchased Watkins, Madueke or Kudus?
I’ll also add - Villa have been linked to Mount on / off for more than a year, have history of hoovering up top 4 cast offs and are partial to a trade arrangement. Mount also said in his recent interview ‘if im a part of it’ when referring to ‘we can win the league’ - it struck me as an odd interjection.
But as a benchmark, Its reasuring to see he puts it all out on the field.
Looking at his highlights when he plays on the left he operates there rather than drift infield early, alot of his key highlights show him cutting in at the edge of the box. Using his strength and effective close control to progress the ball.
I think he’d be a weapon both centrally and on the left. Great powerful shot, good press resistance, strength, ability to carry the ball.
The only sticking point on the forum seems to be discomfort on price. But I question how many are still bothered by Sesko’s or Mbeumo fee? Would it have been better to pay 15-20m less on either of those players and purchased Watkins, Madueke or Kudus?
I’ll also add - Villa have been linked to Mount on / off for more than a year, have history of hoovering up top 4 cast offs and are partial to a trade arrangement. Mount also said in his recent interview ‘if im a part of it’ when referring to ‘we can win the league’ - it struck me as an odd interjection.
I didn’t and not many here did either
Because he isn't doing it now. Do you think Newcastle fans care that Wissa scored 19 goals last season?
If Rogers' output is better than Kvaratskhelia's, and Rogers' dribbling is better than Kvaratskhelia, then he is a better player. But he isn't. His dribbling isn't better. You can watch one game of each and come to that conclusion quite easily without looking at statistics. He is 3rd for possession losses in Premier League despite being very little involved in Villa's passing play, how does that happen?
I’ll say this once more. Clean your act up. If you can’t argue your points without turning to sarcasm or being patronising, then we will remove you from the forum
Many people I imagine don't think Rogers is worth £80m, just like many last summer didn't think Watkins was worth £60m and many simply didn't want to sign Martinez regardless of the fee. All from Villa and linked to us.
I wouldn't pay £80m for Rogers, in my mind he doesn't improve us enough nor has he done enough to warrant paying that sort of money. If you think he is worth it that is fine, however if we do end up signing him I wouldn't want the club spending more than they did on Cunha personally.
For what it is worth I didn't think Watkins was worth £60m, but amazingly it was believed that Arsenal may have had that sort of offer rejected in the winter window of '25, now would I have thought he'd be a decent signing for £35-45m potentially but I actually thought he was in decline.
Many wanted Martinz, I didn't. He was making enough errors in the 24/25 season to suggest we should focus elsewhere and not spend a large fee/wage on him.
Good for you for being so passionate about potentially signing Rogers for £80m, but we all don't have to share you enthusiasm. To be completely honest, I find the majority of players we are getting linked with totally underwhelming for what they'd supposedly cost.
Not sure what relevance Watkins has, but I wanted neither Watkins or Martinez and I don't particularly want Rogers. The prices PL players like him cost often far outweighs their actual quality. I have seen Rogers' goals against us brought up multiple times as if that is proof of him being special and it is a theme I have seen quite often where a player has a decent reputation then has a good game against us and our fans act like they are that every game.
What would be the recommended redcafe "house style", or response template, for replying during a discussion to someone whose argument has no evidence and is basically just "trust me bro"? I'm being told there are problems, but what's the admin suggested alternative to such a scenario?
How is one supposed to respond when you lay out clear evidence for something, and the other person themselves rather obtusely says "no you're wrong, because I said so"? Is the other person ignoring the points you raise in a discussion not themselves being disrespectful? You appear to be trying to suggest to have a good faith discussion with posters who themselves don't always act in good faith.
Also, do you really consistently police people being sarcastic on here? Since when is being sarcastic that big of a deal? It's hardly as if I'm using a direct insult or even a swear word; are people so thin-skinned to not be able to take a bit of mild sarcasm? It feels like a mountain being made out of a molehill.
This post really isn't helping your case at all.
Why do you always need evidence in the form of statistics for everything? Do you need statistics to know that Messi is a better dribbler than James Milner? Do you need statistics to know that Kyle Walker is quicker than Philip Lahm? I'm not ignoring your points; I just disagree with them. You just showed me a statistic that says that Rogers is a better dribbler than Kvaratskhelia, and like I said, you can watch a game of the players and know that it's not the case. I suggest you watch Kvaratskhelia right now. You won't find a single poster who thinks Rogers is a better dribbler than him.
Several mods have already noted your overly aggressive style. I’m sure that you can debate without resorting to being sarcastic, aggressive and patronising. No?
Because I don’t really rate him that highly and we don’t need him. The idea that we would easily sell him for £65m to one of the two best teams in the world is far fetched.
He's not what we need at this stage.
He's also pretty inconsistent.
He's also pretty inconsistent.