MotoGP

[Ronnie O'Sullivan]

Anyone watching the final race? I haven't followed MotoGP for a while but this should be a great finale to the season, especially with Valentino Rossi starting last after kicking off Marquez in the previous race, while his challenger for the title starts on pole.

 

[Revan]

Lorenzo will win the race and the title. If Lorenzo wins the race (which I think is a formality), then Rossi must finish second in order to win the title. That is pretty much impossible to happen.

 

[Moonred]

What an amazing end. Hardly follow it these days, but this is nerve racking.

 

[Flamingo Purple]

Marquez would have passed if he'd wanted to there

 

[Amar__]

Shame.

Good race for Lorenzo, Rossi did all he could, 4th after 25th on the start, but Marquez is a cnut.

 

[Leg-End]

Marquez would have won if he was trying to I think, he just parked behind and never even tried a pass. Shame but Jorge is a totally worthy champion.

Brilliant season.

 

[Amar__]

It's really shame that Spanish driver doesn't even try to win in Valencia.

 

[prarek]

Heartbreak for Rossi.

 

[::sonny::]

A farce

Marquez doesn't have the balls

 

[Luke1995]

Bumping this up because couldn't find a more recent one.

As Valentino Rossi approaches his 41st birthday and what could end up being his final season in Motogp, I wanted to ask a few questions:

1) How good was Rossi as a teenager in the 125cc and 250cc before joining the motogp in 2000?

2)How good was Marc Marquez as a teenager in the 125cc and 250cc before joining the motogp in 2013 ?

3) How good was Rossi in his prime ? (2001-2009)

4) How good has Marquez been from 2013 to 2019 ?

5) You see what I am doing here, right ? So, to finish this up, who is the greatest between them ?

I realize Marquez is going to end up beating all of Rossi's records and will catch Agostini aswell, but that doesn't take away from Rossi's legendary career and I think it's fair to make comparisons between them.

 

[mariachi-19]

Bumping this up because couldn't find a more recent one.

As Valentino Rossi approaches his 41st birthday and what could end up being his final season in Motogp, I wanted to ask a few questions:

1) How good was Rossi as a teenager in the 125cc and 250cc before joining the motogp in 2000?

2)How good was Marc Marquez as a teenager in the 125cc and 250cc before joining the motogp in 2013 ?

3) How good was Rossi in his prime ? (2001-2009)

4) How good has Marquez been from 2013 to 2019 ?

5) You see what I am doing here, right ? So, to finish this up, who is the greatest between them ?

I realize Marquez is going to end up beating all of Rossi's records and will catch Agostini aswell, but that doesn't take away from Rossi's legendary career and I think it's fair to make comparisons between them.

1. Rossi was a prodigical talent. He was a 125 and 250 world champion before taking on the premier class. I mean, until 2007, he'd never finished less than 2nd in any class (including rookie years) which says enough. His marketability was a big factor especially with a younger audience. It wasn't so long ago that you were in your mid 20's before you moved up to the Top Tier.

2. Same as Rossi. Both exceptional talents who were ear marked for success before even entering the junior classes.

3. Peak Rossi is considered by many to be arguably the best rider of all time. I disagree on the fact that he had the benefit of an all conquering Repsol Honda setup followed by taking virtually his entire team over to Yamaha (including Jeremy Burgess who's engineered bikes had won a staggering 8 of the previous 10 world titles (5 Doohan, 3 Rossi). Accordingly, it was not surprising he was able to make Yamaha comeptitive but I think it was far more to do with Yamaha than they are given credit for. He also had a period of some pretty rubbish comeptition. Up until Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa came into the series, everybody else was kind of a bit meh. He's certainly right now failing to demonstrate that it was him all along. Stoner was better.

4. Better than Rossi but not by much. Bigger claim to the best of all time, except for one issue. Casey Stoner who had proved he was better than Rossi. Marquez has never raced him and from what my sources tell me, couldn't keep up with his pace on the same machinery when Casey was still test riding for Honda.

Further it is all well and good having stats in your favour, but Marques lives in a comfy HRC bubble where the bike is built around him at the detriment to every other rider under the umbrella. This doesn't happen often and even Doohan and Rossi never had the same benefit from HRC or Yamaha. They were given preferential treatment yes, but that was it. This doesn't destract from his natural talent, but he needs to prove himself elsewhere.


5. Marquez may well have all the titles by the end of his career, but nobody will care. He has no charisma, no personality, his pathetic flag waving even when losing a race and the clear marketing bullshit from Dorna pisses alot of people off. He's a product of a machine and not one of personality unlike Rossi, hence despite his ridiculous success, Rossi is still far more popular (even in Spain) compared to Marquez.

6. Personally, Stoner is the greatest rider of all time followed by Mike Hailwood then Marquez then Rossi/Rainey/Schwantz/Lorenzo. Stoner for his faults as a racer, is simply untouchable when it comes to our ride speed and ability to generate a laptime on a motorcycle. What he did on the Ducati between 2008 and 2010 despite lactose intolerence and everything else, is next level.

 

[Luke1995]

@mariachi-19 Thanks for the long reply!

About Stoner, wasn't the Ducati built around him ? His teammates betweeen 2007 and 2010 struggled badly kinda like Marquez's teammates have struggled.

Also, does the fact that Stoner chose to retire at age 27 takes away from his legacy ? Instead of coming back to prove himself every year he decided two titles was enough.

Stoner once pointed out that Rossi choose to leave Ducati instead of trying to develop it into a better bike like he (Stoner) allegedly did

I agree that Stoner is one of the all time greats and he has a claim to be the greatest based on what he did despite his health issues, but I have to say his record in the 125cc and 250cc isn't as impressive as Rossi and Marquez's.

Lastly from me, can Rossi's age after 2015 or 2016 be used as a excuse for his poor performances since then ? How much does heavy gym work and having the body of a young man like Marquez does helps to achieve peak performance ? I wonder if Rossi is just not physically fit due to age and can't drive as hard as he used to in his prime.

 

[mariachi-19]

@mariachi-19 Thanks for the long reply!

About Stoner, wasn't the Ducati built around him ? His teammates betweeen 2007 and 2010 struggled badly kinda like Marquez's teammates have struggled.

Also, does the fact that Stoner chose to retire at age 27 takes away from his legacy ? Instead of coming back to prove himself every year he decided two titles was enough.

Stoner once pointed out that Rossi choose to leave Ducati instead of trying to develop it into a better bike like he (Stoner) allegedly did

I agree that Stoner is one of the all time greats and he has a claim to be the greatest based on what he did despite his health issues, but I have to say his record in the 125cc and 250cc isn't as impressive as Rossi and Marquez's.

Lastly from me, can Rossi's age after 2015 or 2016 be used as a excuse for his poor performances since then ? How much does heavy gym work and having the body of a young man like Marquez does helps to achieve peak performance ? I wonder if Rossi is just not physically fit due to age and can't drive as hard as he used to in his prime.

Stoner has a very rare and unique talent in that he can adapt his speed to any bike irrespective of who it was designed for. IE: he can find a way to ride around issues and get the maximum out of the bike. His results from 2008-2010 on the bike are out of this world in terms of his performance. Marquez has the same skill set, but not to the same extent. Ducati never fully trusted Stoner so they never built the bike around him. He just adapted to what they were churning out. It was a werid period for them as they were experimenting with carbon frames etc which lead alot of their other riders to struggle to adapt.

I dont think Stoners retirment deminishes his legacy. I think most just quesiton what if? He left because Motogp is geared around two people, Rossi and Marquez. Stoner got absolutely slaughtered by the Italian and Spanish press because of his "mystery illness" which was actually undiagnosed lactose intolerence and they continued to run that line "mystery illness" as a way to diminish him and his talent. Eventually he went "feck this" and walked out. Not before absolutely destroying Valentino at Jerez with probably the greatest line in motorsport "your ambition outweighed your talent".... he's the only rider that could ever get away with that.

You also have to remember that Rossi and Marquez were backed all through junior classes by HRC. Stoner didn't have the same privelege as that was given to Dani Pedrosa. What I mean by that is that Rossi and Marquez had the best equipment all through the process with the best engineers. Stoner had support from Aprillia and LCR, but not to the same extend as LCR were yet to field a GP team. When he came up to GP and was quickly one of the better riders in the field despite being at a massive disadvantage,

Yeah, time has just caught up with Rossi however I think its more his reactions. I think he is still extremely fit, but this a young mans game

 

[Luke1995]

Stoner has a very rare and unique talent in that he can adapt his speed to any bike irrespective of who it was designed for. IE: he can find a way to ride around issues and get the maximum out of the bike. His results from 2008-2010 on the bike are out of this world in terms of his performance. Marquez has the same skill set, but not to the same extent. Ducati never fully trusted Stoner so they never built the bike around him. He just adapted to what they were churning out. It was a werid period for them as they were experimenting with carbon frames etc which lead alot of their other riders to struggle to adapt.

I dont think Stoners retirment deminishes his legacy. I think most just quesiton what if? He left because Motogp is geared around two people, Rossi and Marquez. Stoner got absolutely slaughtered by the Italian and Spanish press because of his "mystery illness" which was actually undiagnosed lactose intolerence and they continued to run that line "mystery illness" as a way to diminish him and his talent. Eventually he went "feck this" and walked out. Not before absolutely destroying Valentino at Jerez with probably the greatest line in motorsport "your ambition outweighed your talent".... he's the only rider that could ever get away with that.

You also have to remember that Rossi and Marquez were backed all through junior classes by HRC. Stoner didn't have the same privelege as that was given to Dani Pedrosa. What I mean by that is that Rossi and Marquez had the best equipment all through the process with the best engineers. Stoner had support from Aprillia and LCR, but not to the same extend as LCR were yet to field a GP team. When he came up to GP and was quickly one of the better riders in the field despite being at a massive disadvantage,

Yeah, time has just caught up with Rossi however I think its more his reactions. I think he is still extremely fit, but this a young mans game

Sure. So Stoner is pretty much the most naturally talented driver by that standard.

You said before that Rossi had a somewhat weaker competition in the 2000's... I think Max Biaggi and Sete Gibernau were great drivers although maybe not truly world class.

It's sad how Pedrosa was pretty much destroyed by Marquez over these last few years because when he first came into motogp he was outperforming Nicky Hayden in 2007 despite Hayden being the current champ!

And it will be weird to see the races without Jorge Lorenzo aswell, the first driver to give Rossi a real run for his money in the same team.

 

[mariachi-19]

Sure. So Stoner is pretty much the most naturally talented driver by that standard.

You said before that Rossi had a somewhat weaker competition in the 2000's... I think Max Biaggi and Sete Gibernau were great drivers although maybe not truly world class.

It's sad how Pedrosa was pretty much destroyed by Marquez over these last few years because when he first came into motogp he was outperforming Nicky Hayden in 2007 despite Hayden being the current champ!

And it will be weird to see the races without Jorge Lorenzo aswell, the first driver to give Rossi a real run for his money in the same team.

Stoner is like Senna. Probably better champions etc, but outright pace nobody was touching him. He was just too quick. He tried to race for Honda at the start of the 2015 season when Pedrosa was out injured but they were petrified he was going to beat Marq so the CEO pulled the pin.

Biaggi and Gibernau were talented individuals, but I dont hold them in higher esteem than the likes of Dovi, Hayden, Colin Edwards, Criville, Mamola etc. List goes on but they're all super talented riders but not next level. There's a list inbetween Rossi Marquez et el filled with champions and I think those guys would be pretty close to beating the other two.

You're right though. One rider who was next level was Pedrosa but he was too small for GP bikes. It gets to the point where you need some personal horsepower to move 250+bhp bikes around and he simply didnt have it. His time to win titles was in the 800cc bracket but HRC for some reason struggled massively to adapt their bikes to the smaller capacity motor. When Motogp went back to 1000's it was the end of Pedrosa as champion potential. On smaller bikes, he was every bit as good as Rossi and Marquez.

Lorenzo is a strange one as I never warmed to him even at Ducati. Unbelievable good (and only current rider to win a title against Marquez in Motogp), but very very arrogant and unless the bike was setup for smooth handling, struggled to adapt. I dont begrudge him from retiring though.

 

[Luke1995]

@mariachi-19 Anyone from the new generation like Vinales or Quartararo who you think maybe will give Marquez problems soon ?

 

[mariachi-19]

@mariachi-19 Anyone from the new generation like Vinales or Quartararo who you think maybe will give Marquez problems soon ?

Vinales is imo, Lorenzo 2.0. Very very good, but he needs the bike to work for him to get anything out of it. I actually think Rins is the better talent of all three.

Quartararo is unknown quantity. Talented but he had chances to win races last year and couldn't take them. If you look at the opportunities presented last year, Rins on an inferior bike proved to take his chances. I like him and I want him to succeed, he clearly has pace, but he needs to convert otherwise he'll get swallowed up very quickly much like his fellow Frenchy in Zarco.

Thing you need to remember more than anything about motorycle racing is that all three classes are ridiculously competitive and rookies in GP are only rookies in GP. They dont get the same excuses as a rookie in F1 gets for example because the bikes are only marginally slower from GP to Moto 2 (around 3-5 seconds). You can account for different compound (I believe moto 2 run Dunlop and GP run Michelin) and the horsepower differential, but in terms of riding a motorcyle fast and race craft... well you should generally have that by the time you enter the big boys league. I generally give half a season to show some value. Quartararo did, but its now a question of what percentage of value...

 

[Luke1995]

Vinales is imo, Lorenzo 2.0. Very very good, but he needs the bike to work for him to get anything out of it. I actually think Rins is the better talent of all three.

Quartararo is unknown quantity. Talented but he had chances to win races last year and couldn't take them. If you look at the opportunities presented last year, Rins on an inferior bike proved to take his chances. I like him and I want him to succeed, he clearly has pace, but he needs to convert otherwise he'll get swallowed up very quickly much like his fellow Frenchy in Zarco.

Thing you need to remember more than anything about motorycle racing is that all three classes are ridiculously competitive and rookies in GP are only rookies in GP. They dont get the same excuses as a rookie in F1 gets for example because the bikes are only marginally slower from GP to Moto 2 (around 3-5 seconds). You can account for different compound (I believe moto 2 run Dunlop and GP run Michelin) and the horsepower differential, but in terms of riding a motorcyle fast and race craft... well you should generally have that by the time you enter the big boys league. I generally give half a season to show some value. Quartararo did, but its now a question of what percentage of value...

Sure. And in Motoracing there are more opportunities to overtake than in F1.

Any favorite circuits ? Assen will always be the best for me although I liked the old Rio de Janeiro circuit

 

[mariachi-19]

Sure. And in Motoracing there are more opportunities to overtake than in F1.

Any favorite circuits ? Assen will always be the best for me although I liked the old Rio de Janeiro circuit

Philip Island all day every day. You will not appreciate it fully until you've ridden it yourself though. It is like the best rollercoaster you've ever been on. Rewards bravery like no other track i've been on and it super fast. I think they spend the most amount of time at full throttle on it. Turn 1 is up there with one of the best corners in all of motorsport. When you come down the straight even on a stock 1000 you should be 280-290+ and then its literally a pull of the front brake and then you dive into the corner and control the speed balancing the throttle and the rear brake as you go through. The beautify of it is that its positive camber so the corner sucks you in and if you get it right, its like a sling shot onto turn 2 which is a bloody tricky corner as its a very slight negative corner which pushes away from you.

What you appreciate when you right it though is how good Casey Stoner and Marquez are getting their bikes through Stoner. The ability to turn the bike on the rear tyre at 200kmh+ is sublime.

 

[Luke1995]

Who are the best motogp rain drivers ? From any season.

I remember as a kid Anthony West stood out. He could go at full speed even in extreme wet.