What??
Mourinho at full time: "Pogba a virus. You don't play. You don't respect players/fans" [Castles]
- Thread starter Samid
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What on earth are you blabbering about? You've created a straw man argument to fit your agenda.
Pogba is arrogant, that isn't an ego. He's done feck all in a United shirt. Cry foul about that players he's playing with but if he was such an talismanic ego he'd drag the best out of himself and others around him. Instead we get him pouting and regularly putting on mediocre performances. His talent his undoubted, his mentality is atrocious. Malign Fellaini as much as you like, but give me 11 players with his mentality than 11 Pogba, we'd be doing a lot better than we currently are. If anything your point about previous teams should prove that Fergies teams always had grafters with the right mentality rather than the so called superstars.
When he returned he talked about having a point to prove at United, all he's proved is Fergie was right not to cave into his demands and arrogance the first time around.
But the point is that Hazard did not put in a transfer request.
What I said about Pogba stands as far as I am concerned. If he wants to stay then perform.
If he wants to go then we should not stand in his way.
I really don't get this Mourinho trying to get the sack thing.
Mourinho is nothing if not a winner. He is also egotistical which is quite clear.
People with big egos don't deliberately try to fail. He takes failure personally.
I don't doubt for a second that he is not enjoying his job.
However, no manager wants to have being sacked by Manchester United on their cv.
Are you implying that Pogba has put in a transfer request?
No I am not but if he keeps doing what he has and plays as poorly as he has then if he is honest enough to put in such a request then so be it.
He has done nothing to convince me he is worth all the problems.
Never forget that the current Ballon D'or winner, Modric, was once voted as the worst signing in Spain under Jose
This doesn't really make much sense then tbh. What was the point you were trying to make?
Somebody earlier mentioned Hazard when Jose was at Chelsea.
My post of yesterday started it off.
For one, I'm sure there is a part of him that doesn't want to be here. The club hasn't matched his ambition, and he's left playing with below average footballers for a past it manager that sucks the joy out of the team. How dare he think the grass could be greener elsewhere right? But, his calling out of Mourinho's tactics - something that we all agree with - is the furthest from a sign he doesn't want to be here as you could get. It's the opposite, and if you think he's not speaking up for other members of the squad who lack the power to do so you are wrong. Not to mention he's speaking up for the fans.
The point I made about previous teams didn't register I see. The names I listed (which could have been much longer) were all players that could be called World Class, or at least debated as such. Because they had talent to go with their mentality. The players I listed on the current team only have the mentality you crave, but watching them try to play football is awkward and embarrassing and makes you want to turn away at times. You almost feel bad for them because they are so poor yet in a team with such lofty expectations.
On very rare occasions, your Fellaini mentality wins. That's why Leicester is and almost always will be an anomaly. Having more talent than other teams - over the course of a season or a game or whatever - is typically what wins out. If we had more players with Pogba's level of talent, and a manager that could harness and motivate and turn it loose, we would be in a better position. Not if we had more Fellainis for Christs sake.
Genuinely have no clue what you're talking about or where you're getting all this from.
It's common knowledge among supporters, people in or around the ground, among many others that the guy does not want to be here, hasn't wanted to be here for over a year and would be gone if Barcelona wanted him or could afford him. Truth is they don't want him or can afford him, hence why he's still here.
I never said he was wrong calling out his tactics, speaking up for other members of the team or is sick of being in an under performing team so I genuinely don't know why you're going on about that for to me.
The reasons to me are irrelevant. He doesn't want to be here, fair enough.
Although, he might want to look at his own performances before he starts mouthing off about others
That is not common knowledge.
To call something like that common knowledge would make me think you might have some quotes or evidence of it. Care to share?
People who are comparing him to Hazard and Ronaldo and hoping he will turn out like them after Mourinhi leaves will be left hgely dissapointed that I feel sorry for them. For the start these 2 won their team a league under Mourinho himself, and Hazarr won PFA player of the year too. They actually won their clubs big trophies so the problem was clearly not in them. Pogba was just a part of 2 very successful teams, never the main player or thr main star in them.
You seem to struggle to infer meaning and understand the difference between mentality and ability.
I admire Fellaini's mentality, and with 11 players with a similar mentality we'd be in a much better position. Pogba, for all his natural ability lacks the mentality and that's why he'll never reach the heights expected. The fact he's downed tools this season should be more than enough evidence of that.
Literally no one is comparing them as players but you right now,they're brought up to shine light on the fact that Jose has a habit of creating conflict and falling out with his stars
Pogba is only the latest to join the likes of Sergio Ramos,Iker Casillas, Juan Mata(at one point), Hazard, Eto'o,KDB and CR7 in that regard. Heck even Basti, who was passed it admittedly, was treated disgracefully during his short time under him and Kaka felt 'destroyed' by his time with him.
Pogba who has never had a serious issue in any prior dressing room deserves the benefit of the doubt much more than the person who has had this sort of thing follow him throughout his career...
All these did for their teams far more than Pogba ever did that you have to side with them against the manager otherwise you'll be kidding. They win you trophies on their own. If Hazard or Ronaldo are annoyed with the manager, I'll let them choose their own Preferred manager if they want to. Pogba on the other doesn't have the right to that. He has never been the main player in any of his teams. He was juat always a good part of a very successful team around him. Unlike Hazard and Ronaldo, there's absolutely nothing proving that he will succeed here post Mourinho, actually everything points to the contrary.
I'm not talking about his attitude off the pitch and I don't think anyone pointed to it either.
And you seem to struggle with who is responsible for setting the mentality of a team.
Pogba's mentality was not questioned when he was winning leagues at Juve and helping them get to CL finals, or when he was winning a World Cup w France. It's the manager's job to set the mentality of the team and then to enforce it and keep it consistent. That is not what Pogba is paid to do it's what Jose is paid to do. Instead he pouts on the bench and hurls players under the bus at any time when his own abilities are questioned. What sort of mentality do you expect the team to have with a leader like that?
City and Liverpool have 11-15 players with Fellaini's mentality (and also more talent for the most part) because they have managers bringing it out of them. You think you could swap Jose in for Pep or Klopp and they'd look the same? Look at Arsenal last year compared to this year or Chelsea in Jose's disaster year compared to Conte's first. Or of course the man who defines this club. Jose has failed to build either an identity or a mentality that his players can buy into. That's his failure and his alone no matter who he attempts to deflect blame towards.
The players who seem to fight for Jose consistently happen to be the ones who couldn't earn elsewhere what they do here. Go figure.
Yeah but don't see the reason for that "transfer request" part…
This would make sens if Pogba was a forward like Hazard and Ronaldo. How often in football did a midfielder win his team a trophy? Pogba will look much better if he was to play with teammates who were delivering consistently, you have just to look at our best games under Mourinho and notice how often Pogba was instrumental in them. When players in front of him can do their share of job, Pogba always delivers, it was the case in the WC with French NT, in that 3-2 comeback against City, and recently when him and Martial saved Mourinho's job.
If Pogba was playing in a winning team, I'm 100% sure he'd be racked up individuals trophies; Put De Bruyne and whoever else in this team under Mourinho and they'd struggle with inconsistency too. It no coincidence that Pogba is always among the best players under other managers.
But that's the point. You can't simply pay 89m for a player then claim you need to pay another 200m to provide him a squad for him to play consistently well. Doesn't make any sense.
We overpaid for Pogba but that's not his fault, that's our own fault. Madrid paid a world record fee to get Zidane but they also brought in Ronaldo, Figo and many other players to complement him. They did the same with Ronaldo by also adding the like of Kaka and other players for huge fees. The difference between what Madrid and Perez did and United with Woodward is that Madrid had a plan on how they wanted to build their team, we seem to have no plan but buying for the sake of buying. If we had a plan, we'd not have bought Sanchez and Lukaku.
The truth is, no player is great enough to single win his team a trophy, you need at least 4 other players to perform at world class level to build a winning team. Leicester won the league because Mahrez, Vardy, their entire defense and some other players performed at world class level that season; Hazard needed Costa and Fabregas to match his level to win the league.
The fact our squad is average, only De Gea perform at a high level before Pogba joined us, any average side he joins would need to try to become a top team by investing a lot of money in the transfer window to get more top players in the side that is on the same level as Pogba. For an example, Pogba in PSG so they don't need to pay another 200m to provide him with a team to play so well because they have many top players the likes of Neymar, Mbappe, Canavi, Verrarti, Silva, etc.
Jose had a chance to build 300m around Pogba but his transfer window hasn't been of success and many players he bought has gone to shit like Sanchez, Lukaku, Matic, Mhki, etc.
Zidane and Ronaldo can win their team matches on their own though, and they showed it several times on club and national teams level. Hazard still won Chelsea the league without Hazard and when Costa form dropped off, and still doing great and winning them loads without them both now.
Pogba's problem he's simply good enough as another cog in the machine. He's not someone you should build a team around, otherwise, he's a luxury player you get after you have built a team and want some more quality in it.
Are you forgetting how Zidane and Ronaldo's team were respectively loaded with talents? Do you think French win the 98 WC without Henry, Trezeget, Thuram, Deschamps, Lizarazu,....? or Ronaldo winning that 2002 wc without the like of Cafu, Rivaldo, Carlos,....?
Hazard won Chelsea the league with Costa being one of the best striker in the PL, even under Conte winning team Costa was still the man who single won them games. After Costa left, Chelsea won nothing of note apart from the FA cup last season against an United in agony.
I disagree that Pogba is another cog in the machine, at least an United fans shouldn't be saying that as most of the time we looked a nothing team without him in the squad. He won us many games and would have finished the 2016/2017 season with an insane number of assists if Zlatan and other could finish the chance he created for them, and would have scored many goals if the goalpost didn't stand on his way. He's a midfielder but we expect him to win us games like he was a striker or a forward.
That France side complete fell apart once Zidane retired. At 2006 it was clear that with all their talents they're completely different side with him than without him. See their performance in the group stage of 2006 WC and how it dramatically changed starting from 16th round once Zidane played and got his form. They had loads of talents but Zidane was the one making every thing clicking. After him they passed through several shite years before getting the side they have know, and unlike the Zidane's team, they're not a one man team anymore.
You're talking about Costa leaving as if he left several years ago, it was only 1 season ago, the season in which Conte imploded and still they won the FA Cup and are in good position in Premier League, and Hazard is still winning them games on their own. Point is, Hazard never needed someone else beside to make him click, and didn't need a certain style to unleash his best. He played under several play styles and with several players with exactly same form and same contributions to his teams.
Pogba can have great games and he's clearly our best players quality wise but he never puts in consistent performance week in week out like, I won't say like any other super star, but I'll say like any midfielder. Midfielders aren't known for their inconsistency to that degree. Wingers yes you can say they can be a bit inconsistent but midfielders are usually the most consistent performance wise in any team. Pogba literally goes from having a 9/10 match to a 4/10 the next one, which is weird for a midfielder. At Juve and France, there're several players that covered him but not here, and not in any team of England imo you can be inconsistent in midfield and depends on others. You mentioned Fabregas yourself. He was brilliant but once he stopped doing any CM rules and became a liability while not having the ball, he got dropped for good, despite him still having great quality on the ball. As a midfielder in England, you simply need to be consistent and do your dirty work. Pogba, as many of our other players, is great on his day but consistency is the problem.
Good post.
It's only a few years ago, but some just seems to forget. We won the League under SAF last season, then went to shit 7th under Moyes with almost exactly the same squad.
Does it mean that those players, like Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, RvP had shite mentality? Or does it have something to do with the manager in charge?
It's this back and white mentality that I can't be doing with. Everyone in the United set up is an individual, capable of setting their own standards and goals. Jose clearly has done an abysmal job of late but that does not give individual players a free pass. I don't care if the manager puts him left back and blames him for the half time oranges being the wrong shape, I want him to go out there and give 100%. Don't tell me that's unrealistic or unreasonable, don't tell me that's not how it works. Carrick might have been shite unde Moyes but he didn't stop working.
But others with the like of Rio and Vidic couldn't be arsed giving 100% under Moyes. So, back to the question, do they have shite mentality then?
It's hard to work in a team when your boss keep criticizing you, when the lesser co-workers get the praise. You may perform here and there, but over time it will eventually wear you out. Not to mention when your earlier top performances that keep your boss on the job.
Well, Rio did say, after Moyes was gone, that some of the players did not cope well with the post-Fergie changes. Stories about chips, Jagielka videos, and disagreements between Giggs and Moyes circulated freely. Was it entirely Moyes's fault? Probably not, but we'll never know for certain. Van Gaal has alluded to players not understanding his system, sorry, philosophy, and Mourinho has said some very uncomplimentary things about his squad. So, when apportioning fault, in all likelihood it's probably six of one and half a dozen of the other.
That 2006 side had many players on their last legs. But saying that French NT between 97 and 2006 were a one man team is just not true. Zidane was their best player but they had talents all over the pitch.
Hazard and Costa were winning Chelsea games, without one of them I doubt they won a single league. You're talking as if Hazard was winning them games by himself; you have just to look at his stats to see that it's not true. Without Costa's goals Chelsea would not win the league. Hazrad was their best player, but Costa was their main scorer and Fabregas had his share too.
The thing about a Pogba type of player is that when they don't score or deliver an assist people say they had a bad game. And it's understandable because what makes players like him special and elevate them above the common midfielders is their ability to be decisive; when they aren't we think they were average hence the impression that they are inconsistent; when he produce goals and/or assists we gave them a 9/10 but when they don't, it drops around 5/10. So in order to make Pogba being consistent, you need to provide him with a platform which allows him to consistently deliver goals and assists and to achieve this you need better players around him. The like of Pogba and De Bryune are different form the Modric because it's normal for the latter to have a great game without goal or assit, but the former have put their own standard too high so that when they don't deliver stats, they look average but in reality they are playing at a level which is just below their proper standard. It's like with Messi, his bad game is still above of the normal player but when rating him people will forget this and say he was bad.
I'm not saying France didn't have talents, but they always looked different with Zidane than without him. He was the one making everything click. You can see a current example of that in the current Barca side. Without Messi or when he's in poor form and even with all their great players they look a shadow of themselves. One man team doesn't necessarily means they don't have talents, but that the team falls apart when this man is off. Zidane was like that for this France side.
Hazard, as I said, he's still doing great and performing as one of the best in the league without both. He performed under different managers and with different players with same form. That's down to him. He didn't need Costa to shine.
Actually what you're saying about Pogba is far from the problem, and reminds of what he said several times that he's only evaluated on goals. It's false. He's a midfielder. My problem with him is he doesn't perform like a proper CM. He has a great quality on the ball but inconsistent and is usually a passenger when we don't have the ball, he doesn't even press the player who cuts the ball from him and acts as if it's another one's job to cut it. Midfielders don't score much. I just want him to play like a proper CM for a whole season and you'll see he'll get all the praise from everyone. The problem is he doesn't perform as a CM and at the same time is inconsistent up front so he doesn't excel in either and he doesn't consistently provide what's enough to excuse him for his lack of CM performance. If he focused on doing a midfielder job efficiently, he'll be better.
We should have more quality but that's partly on Mourinho. His signings haven't worked out. And what he inherited, most of them need to be cleared out. I'm not defending Mourinho here, he's had his shot at creating his team and he hasn't succeeded. It's just that I don't have confidence in Pogba not acting up again when Mourinho is gone and we're trying to turn a new page. Many have already turned on him, and there will probably be many more when there is no bad guy Mourinho to blame anymore.
I'm not saying he's a bad player, other than DDG, he's our best player by far.
He has thrived in good enviroments before but it will take a lot to turn things around after Mourinho. Pogba has to be a big part in helping with that, and I'm not sure he has leader qualities to do that.
Is Mourinho getting that personal these days?
No doubt. There's certainly blame on both sides here. My sole, simple, indisputable point is that there is no excuse for Pogba or anyone else not giving everything when they take the field.
Because every team will look different when their best player isn't playing, that's because the system is built around that player and it's up to the manager to adapt and twist his system to cope without that player. Look at the current Madrid situation and how they fall in piece without CR7, do you think the like of Bale, Benzema, Modric, Kroose, Isco, Casemiro, Marcelo,.... are bad players? No, they are good players who used to play alongside CR7 but they are now struggling to adapt to life without him; it's up to their manager to find a way to cope. SAF was a genius because he adapted his team to life without Ronaldo so quickly that we didn't noticed his absence.
There's a reason Chelsea are now losing ground to City and Liverpool and I have them as candidate to drop out of top 4, and that reason is they lack a consistent goalscorer, they are actually missing Costa a man who was created goals out of nothing. Hazard alone is not enough to be a winning machine.
All of this is down to the system. There's no player as lazy as Messi (and Suarez), last season at one time Barcelona were defending with only 8 players because those 2 were walking around, but their manager find a way to cover that deficiency. Ask yourself why doesn't Pogba have same problem at his national team? or when he was at Juve? At his national team he doesn't even provide many assists and goals but is 1 of their best player, that's because he's a great midfielder first. Here at United he's inconsistent because other players are either shit/average or inconsistent (a common problem in this team, even De Gea has became inconsistent).
Like with many players, I'll wait to see Pogba under another manager before knocking him down (apart form Lukaku, Matic and Fellaini, I just want them out because they are not from the standard we want). Pogba inconsistency may be due to many factors like confidence, lack of movements in front of him, system,...all of them could be addressed with a new manager.
My last post of the day, will replay next day.
I agree with everything on Mourinho. I was the same, having patience and looking past his behaviour but it's just gone too far. There's no going back now.
On his last 8 years, it's debatable how that should be judged. I think his ego might have just got to big after everything he had acheived and I'm guessing his man management style doesn't work well with this new generation of occasionally flakey personalities. The game has also changed like you mentioned, being more offense heavy. It's kind of similar to how the NBA has evolved in to a more fast paced league and defensive coaches have been left behind. Although it's still possible to build a successful Jose type team, it's not easy to find the right players.
Regarding Pogba, I think he would do well in a functioning system with the right players around him. We have no idea how long this team will be disfunctional after Mourinho though and I don't think he has the mentality to be a part of helping to make that transition. As our best player, he should at least be able to lead by example if he's not a vocal leader, and I don't see him being able to do that. There is too much controversy and question marks around Pogba for me to dare go forward with him.
Fair fecks to Jose for dropping the lazy git.
I might even manage to put the kids to sleep to watch the game, although, and that's my main problem, i don't even wanna watch us play anymore.
They should both feck off as soon as possible.
I might even manage to put the kids to sleep to watch the game, although, and that's my main problem, i don't even wanna watch us play anymore.
They should both feck off as soon as possible.
Stick them in front of the box at kickoff, they'll be done in seconds.
Agree with that 100%.
It just shows that if you don't trust your leader, most world class player would revolt. You stick Ronaldo here, do you think he wouldn't throw tantrum?
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