Mourinho - average age

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Regulus Arcturus Black, May 8, 2018.

  1. May 8, 2018
    #1

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    Another myth that's been bugging the hell out of me for weeks, I realise that many on here are far from fans of Jose Mourinho but why the insistence on making things up? Surely there's enough to slag him off for without having to resort to complete drivel?

    Here was the post that lead to make this thread, a very rare occurrence for me, I'm usually banging my head against a brick wall in other threads until the entire forum has died of boredom and moved elsewhere…

    Zlatan was a one year stop gap on a free, whilst we had other areas to concentrate our transfer budget on (namely Pogba). Zlatan has now been replaced by a guy who was 24 when we bought him.

    So he's bought: Lukaku 24, Bailly 22, Lindelöf 22, Pogba 23.
    Schweinsteiger 32 was shipped out. Schneiderlin 27 shipped out.

    Carrick (36) is retiring and was replaced by a 28 year old Matic.
    Rooney (32) left and was replaced by a 29 year old Sanchez (originally the 29 yr old Miki).
  2. May 8, 2018
    #2

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    Yeah and it’s highly plausible that he’ll replace Valencia and young with some much younger players as well.

    Other than Matic and Sanchez (who replaces a similar aged player - Ibra was a stop gap), his signings have been quite good, age wise.
  3. May 8, 2018
    #3

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    I bloody well hope so :)

    You're right of course, if he was to replace these two with the likes of say Sessegnon or Sandro then one thing you can say is that he's done a good job bringing the average age down whilst replacing the experience in the squad with younger more prime experience.
  4. May 8, 2018
    #4

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    Yeah I agree. Imagine replacing them with older players :lol: was a bit of an obvious comment by me, but the point remains!

    It’s interesting, I’m actually not the most ardent Jose fan, but it’s clear that he has a reputation which he cannot shake. Especially if his struggles with Martial/Rashford continues and he ends up replacing them with someone like Perisic/Willian in the squad/starting XI.

    It would be interesting to get the stats for the average age of players he signed at all his previous clubs (probably starting from Porto/Chelsea).
  5. May 8, 2018
    #5

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    It's fairly simple the post that you quoted is wrong and you are wrong too, just because your approach is wrong. Mourinho rates experience and maturity, which is seen in the players that you mentioned Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Mkhitaryan, Ibrahimovic and Sanchez fit that description. Mourinho don't discriminate by age but by miles which isn't a bad thing if you have people within the club that will bring less experienced players to balance things out.
  6. May 8, 2018
    #6

    Jig1234 Full Member

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    @RegulusArcturusBlack

    You quoted me but left out the other part.

    It's not even about Mourinho with young players. Most of his signings have not worked out. Still can't get the best out of Pogba, He signed Lindolof and Bailly but prefers Chris Smalling and he snubs the the other one because his team didn't qualify for the World Cup.


    In the long term selling young players is bad business. It means we have to replace them more frequently and they are harder to move on.

    But fundamentally regardless of who we sign how many players have been a success - Who apart from De Gea, Lukaku and possibly Matic have had a good season?

    Pogba position in the team is still uncertain. Lingard had a few good months in form. I would far more optimistic if Mourinho was getting a tune of half of his squad. I don't think this squad is that bad. I think we can easily be playing more attacking football that is conducive to better performances.
  7. May 8, 2018
    #7

    Damien Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin) Staff

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    Agreed. Though Pogba and Lukaku are young, they had played minutes that a lot of 26-27 year olds haven't.
  8. May 8, 2018
    #8

    Swift Football New Member

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    These two are obviously the problem - agewise. When top clubs bring in replacements, they think of long term solutions rather than for next 2 years. They bring in much younger players so that these new players play with their existing players for long time and build chemistry and produce, rather than having to worry about replacing these new players themselves in just 2 years.

    For e.g., Barca's plan to replace 33 yr old Iniesta is by bringing 25 year old Coutinho. Simiar situation to ours but we brought a 29 year old.
    While bringing in 1 or 2 old players is not a problem in itself, but bringing in 4-5 oldies obviously is. There are concerns that we will go for older players like 29 yr old Willian, 29 yr old Bale & 29 yr old Toby. If we indeed bring in 3 additional players like that, we will have 5 players in the starting XI that needs to be replaced in just few years.

    The key is to have players who have played with each other for multiple years, that way a team has a good core, a good chemistry and will produce the highest. To do that, one need to have a long term plan.
  9. May 8, 2018
    #9

    CM10 Full Member

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    His signings haven't been too much of a problem so far in that respect, with the exception of Sanchez who has quite clearly taken Martial's place. There are quite a few promising young players who have had their routes to the first-team blocked by average squad players though.
  10. May 8, 2018
    #10

    MyOnlySolskjaer Creator of Player Performance threads

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    I do agree. A lot of reasons to bash Mourinho but not the average age of his signings.
  11. May 8, 2018
    #11

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    How am I wrong then? I'm just putting the case forward that it's nonsense to say he's raising the average age of the squad, because well, he fecking isn't.
  12. May 8, 2018
    #12

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    I was trying to do you a favour by leaving that out in fairness :lol:
  13. May 8, 2018
    #13

    MoskvaRed Full Member

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    It’s a reputation he carries from his Inter stint, where his orders were to win the Champions League asap. At Chelsea and Milan, he left behind strong squads with plenty of football left in them. I am disenchanted with Mourinho but I am not worried that he will bequeath a squad of 30 year olds, nor am I bothered about whether Martial stays or goes. He’s another “good but something missing” player of the type we have been specialising in for the last 5 years or more.
  14. May 8, 2018
    #14

    Jig1234 Full Member

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    No need. Debate is what a forum is for. It's good to discuss things and see other points of view. :)
  15. May 8, 2018
    #15

    Marcelinho87 Full Member

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    Couldn't give two shits about age.... Would rather a 30+ year old winner than somebody who will take years to mature.
  16. May 9, 2018
    #16

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    I suppose you are right, as we have now too first hand experience that Jose prefers older players in his first XI, Valencia, Young, Smalling, Matic, Sanchez (go to man Fellaini) and we also know Jose isn't a manager who nurtures young players for the future. I am curious to see who he will bring in this summer, it wouldn't surprise me if he did go for players like Willian, Bale, Perisic and Toby Alderweireld. The only problem I do have with that is that if he doesn't get his instant success, our next manager will be in the same situation Moyes was when Fergie left, an aging/over the hill squad.
  17. May 9, 2018
    #17

    Andycoleno9 Full Member

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    Because of class92 and fergies long reign united fans are obsessed with age and long run term. 30y old player is too old, 28y old player is a short term solution and signing 20y old player means that that position is covered for next 10 years. Manager who doesn't stick around more than 3,4 years is not manager for united. In short, united fans are always looking what will be after 5 years and in the same time want success now.

    Every squad needs to have balance. In todays football you can't set up squad full of young(ish) players and win something. And it takes effect for future as well. Young player needs experienced player with him to learn. Somebody to calm him down, to give him advices etc..
    Of course that in a long run to have squad full of 30y players is not good, but our current squad has perfect balance. So adding one 30y old player per transfer window, who will make immediate impact is not bad choice
  18. May 9, 2018
    #18

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    The OP sure is unnecessarily melodramatic. I haven't seen a whole lot of people claim Jose is raising the age of the team. What he does value greatly is experience. Pogba and Lukaku arent old but they're quite experienced for their age. Zlatan, stop gap or not, was an old fecker. Matic and Sancher are 29/30. Mkhitarian had bags of experience too. It's just Lindelof who has been average and Bailly who he doesnt start who are genuinely fairly inexperienced. He also hasnt developed our young flair players very well.

    But it's fine to prefer experience as his values are in line with that. Just as it's fine to prefer youth as is the case with many posters.
  19. May 9, 2018
    #19

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Proving one post wrong doesn't validate the creation of this thread.
  20. May 9, 2018
    #20

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    One thing about the class of '92 that can easily escape notice nowadays is that Ferguson didn't actually deploy a starting xi full of youngsters. It was a well-calculated move that pretty much prioritized the all-important balance you mentioned in your post. Gary Neville played at RB in an otherwise very experienced defensive line which consisted of Irwin-Pallister-Bruce and Schmeichel. Butt/Scholes were introduced to the midfield when Keane had already proven in the previous two seasons that he's United material. Similarly, Beckham made the right wing his own when Giggs had already proven, on the other wing, in the past 3-4 seasons that he's a special player who can carry the weight of the United shirt. As for the two positions up front, there Fergie always valued ready-made solutions.

    A lot of people talk about "instant success" like it's the worst thing that can happen in football. IMHO the "build a team for the future" argument can become a great excuse for failure too. Despite the fact that Mourinho is indeed a manager who values experience (measured primarily by miles and not by age but since it usually comes with age the two are often seen together), you don't usually do the youngsters many favours when you throw them at the deep end and you tell them to carry the team upon their shoulders. Moyes did it with Januzaj and LvG took it to the next level with players like Blackett, McNair, Borthwick-Jackson, Fosu-Mensah and i guess i'm forgetting a few others too. Even the best of them, Martial and Rash, haven't shown the consistency that is required in order to be trusted week in and week out for leading our attacking line. These players need to be protected as much as they need playing time. Nurturing is also about playing in a settled side and alongside players who can instil confidence and calmness on the pitch so that the youngsters can be more adventurous. In a sense, the best way to get the best out of them and maximize their chances of success is to blend them in an already good team.

    Just look at Real Madrid who are currently setting the world on fire with their CL success: Varane plays next to Ramos, Casemiro alongside Kroos and Modric, players like Asensio and Kovacic get calculated minutes. At Bayern Robben and Ribery are still first choices when they are available. If, God forbid, Martial goes to Munich next summer, he'll probably occupy one wing with either Robben or Ribery playing on the other so he'll get better numbers by feeding off what the rest of the team will create and the periods when he's sulking/not playing well won't matter that much because it won't be expected of him to perform on world-class level right from the start.

    At the end of the day Mourinho is who he is. If the club is not fine with his transfer dealings they should hire someone to present alternatives to his prefered targets. He was bitching and moaning for not getting Perisic but the lack of width in our attack is evident and Perisic provides exactly that. Our midfield cries out for an option with ball-carrying abilities but the Caf will moan if Mourinho asks for Willian. If he comes out and says that he wants to trade all of our CBs for Vertonghen/Alderweireld, i won't blame him. So, get someone who will give him more options to choose from instead of his old players and Raiola's clients.
  21. May 9, 2018
    #21

    Nick7 Full Member

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    I'm honestly not sure why people keep bringing up Bailly as a young player Mourinho is mishandling. He was firmly first choice last season, this season he was first choice, but pretty bad up until he got injured. After his injury he came straight back into the team and was again pretty bad. He hasn't been better than any of our other centre backs and that's why he's not playing. Not because some weird Mourinho conspiracy.
  22. May 9, 2018
    #22

    Andycoleno9 Full Member

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    I always have a feeling that every group of fans have certain "issues". Liverpool fans are deluded, arsenal depressed, city have inferiority complex. We have "never happy" complex. We want proven young world class player who doesn't cost much, who will not take place to some academy player, who will be here next 10 years and who will score every match. Everything bellow that is not good. Some comments about matic and alexis when we bought them were in that direction.
    I repeat, we must avoid 2013 situation when we had old(er) squad. But having 3 or 4 30years old players in first 11 is good for me. Players that give immediate impact.
  23. May 9, 2018
    #23

    Smores Full Member

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    I challenged a few people in the last few days on this but it's not surprising they never reply as they know they're talking bollocks but they want to strop anyway.

    Even historically he has not gone old, he usually signs around the 22-27 region which fits with our historic trend really. His Chelsea team had a young core.

    Our fans are sheeple though one person says it and it becomes a truth.
  24. May 9, 2018
    #24

    Kapardin New Member

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    There is merit on both sides of the argument. Mourinho does not only buy older players, that is true. But he wants established players for key positions - striker, midfield, wings. Even though Lukaku and Pogba are young, they have had multiple years of experience playing at a high level. Sanchez and Matic are typical Jose players.

    Mourinho would never trust an inconsistent player like Martial as a key man. He experimented with Rashford and Martial for so long only due to the pressure of our club culture.

    I assume Pogba's inconsistency is a surprise to him, he figured Pogba was close to being the finished article. He may play young, unproven or developing players in CB or midfield but not in other positions.

    Martial has so many faults and he shares some blame, but he has not been helped by Jose's inability to manage weak mentalities.
  25. May 9, 2018
    #25

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    Well this took all of 2 minutes @amolbhatia50k … there's literally hundreds more posts along these lines regarding Mourinho.

    But yeah sure, I'm being overdramatic and it's just one poster who thinks like this.

  26. May 9, 2018
    #26

    GiddyUp Full Member

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    A lot of injuries and the usual 2nd season syndrome. The guy is class and with experience could easily become a Rio type of player. I'm quite happy with our CB options but would gladly see one of Jones or Smalling leave if it meant bringing in Alderweild.
  27. May 9, 2018
    #27

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    Confident he'll get over the injuries too and find it completely understandable if Mourinho is resting him now to test if his body can hold up to a few weeks of training without getting injured again.
    Alderweireld | Smalling | Bailly | Lindelöf would be an excellent selection of CB's imo with a good age range too. Guess Jones will also be around as no-one will buy the crock. Rojo and Blind should be moved on I think.
  28. May 9, 2018
    #28

    Smores Full Member

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    You mean like Ozil, Di Maria, Robben, Essien?

    You're right in that he doesn't do weak mentalities well and doesnt make inconsistent players key players but I'm not sure many succesful managers do either or them.
  29. May 9, 2018
    #29

    Kapardin New Member

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    Those 4 were far more consistent and driven under world class managers than Martial or Rashford ever would be.

    You are right. Successful top level managers don't often do it. You need the likes of Jardim, Poch etc to do it. Or LvG. I suppose it is a price to pay for success.

    Mourinho will play inconsistent youth, but only in defensive positions. Never the key attacking ones.
  30. May 9, 2018
    #30

    RedNed77 Full Member

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    Thats all well and good and true to some extent, but given the state of the caf do you believe the patience is there amongst the fan base for another 3 years of waiting for the team to gel? No chance. Plus Jose is not that kind of coach where he's going to sit doing endless rondo's with a young team gelling them together.

    Mourinho builds for immediate success and thrives off the ego boost he gets off that. He then leaves when he's accomplished it and doesn't give a monkeys whether its all on fire in his rear view mirror.
  31. May 10, 2018
    #31

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    Hmmmm @amolbhatia50k... and now these just today:

    Safe to say that a) I had a point making the thread, and b) you were talking out of yor backside.
  32. May 10, 2018
    #32

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    My point wasn't related to the OP. Just that the manger is the dispensable one in football. It's a lot more expensive to replace all the players for a manager rather than find a manager that will work with the squad better.
  33. May 10, 2018
    #33

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    Ah, apologies then CM. I thought the “exactly” was agreeing with the age thing.
    Still, the other 2 posts were more examples of posters on this forum trying to spread the narrative that Mourinho is hell bent on increasing the age of the squad, despite all the evidence proving the opposite.
  34. May 10, 2018
    #34

    Mainoldo Full Member

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    It’s not the age that’s the problem. It’s his inability to develop players. Which leads to the correlation of an older squad. Lukaku is young but he is also way more minutes into his playing career than Jesse Lingard, which makes him more seasoned. That’s the point.

    If we want Mourinho to win the league we can’t expect him to do it with players that with young players that will grown into their potential. He needs ready made professionals. What he then provides is consistency and winning mentality.
  35. May 10, 2018
    #35

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    Wait, there's more…

    I'd be here all day if I used every instance amolbhatia.

  36. May 10, 2018
    #36

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Safe to say that my backside makes more sense than you do. And spells more accurately too.
  37. May 10, 2018
    #37

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Wait, he just picked up a random post then? :lol:
  38. May 10, 2018
    #38

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    While a few posts seem to stretch the idea, and you find that to be the case with any view/topic/opinion, I think it's fair to say that Mourinho values experience and discipline hugely and that doesn't sit well with a lot of fans who value youth, flair and skills more. Nothing wrong with either side as all those virtues have their merits.

    Moreover I think what's more relevant is how well Jose develops those young talents/flair players. Merely adding them to your team or keeping them isnt the aim. Everyone would praise Mourinho greatly if he is able to develop Pogba and Martial to their absolute best. And those two along with Rashford represent a lot of what people see as exciting about this football club. Or even Bailly and Lindelof for that matter on the defensive side.

    Personally I like pretty much all of Mourinhos signings. I'm just not a huge fan of his development of them.
  39. May 10, 2018
    #39

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

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    Agree with everything here.

    Cheap shot earlier on yor "your" though ;)
  40. May 10, 2018
    #40

    FerociousCorgis New Member

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    it will be interesting to see how they do develop. For instance, bailly looked like he would become a staple after year one, but injuries and then being very inconsistent when he has come back in has made him fall down the pecking order. Lindelof varies appearance to appearance from competent to perhaps a miss. Smalling has been the one mou has relied on, and we are being linked pretty heavily with Toby. Not saying toby is a bad player, but if we go into next season with smalling and toby in the middle, with young and valencia out wide, that is a pretty heavy aged backline. Add in if we subtract martial for willian would have sanchez and willian on the wings. Hopefully we dont go for vidal or we could have damn near 3/4ths our starting lineup in the 30s. Yeah that might be successful for a season, depending on what people would consider a success, but what happens if mou leaves after the next season and the new manager has to now revamp the squad or work with players who havent been playing much the past season? Just worried we will be continually needing to spend 300 million for our coach to not have to whine about the quality of the squad.