Mourinho away record against top 6

[carlosp]

I'm still waiting to see how the other top 6 clubs fared in this period...?
Is there a major difference in points won..?

I posted this here regarding Top 6 for this season.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-top-6-against-each-other-away-records.433593/#post-21681016

Top 6 PL - This season is all that matters

City: 2 wins(Liverpool and Chelsea) - 2 Games 6 points
United: 1 Won(Spurs) 1 Draw(Liverpool) - 2 Games 4 points
Chelsea: 1 won(Spurs) 1 lost(City) and 1 draw(Arsenal) - 3 Games 4 points
Liverpool: 1 Won(Arsenal) 2 Lost(City and Spurs) 1 Draw(United) - 3 Games 4 points
Spurs: 2 lost(Chelsea and United) and 1 won(Liverpool) - 3 Games 3 points
Arsenal: 1 Lost(Liverpool) 1 Draw(Chelsea) - 2 Games 1 point

 

[Adisa]

Delay cost us in our best performance there in years.

 

[prtk0811]

Yet the myth still exists of let's play pragmatically because results come first. There are no results which back that style of play up in recent years IMO.

Our Midfeild and team balance has been so poor in all of these games, we Dint have much of a choice. Fellani only recently started playing well. Gotta be realistic rather than just being bullish.

 

[2cents]

Be interested to see LVG's Top 6 record during his time here.

 

[roonster09]

Be interested to see LVG's Top 6 record during his time here.

I'm sure it's very good.
He won both games at Anfield.
Won against Arsenal
Won against City

 

[KirkDuyt]

Meh didn't he also have a gazillion year unbeaten homestreak at Chelsea? Who cares if his record has been a bit poor lately, if he wins the next 6 who cares.

LVG had a great world cup before coming to Utd, we all know how that ended.

 

[suhaylah]

When we go away to big teams, Mourinho set the team to play for a draw.. So it's normal that he has a bad record for man united against the big teams. Surprisingly, even LVG has a better record against the big teams

 

[Randall Flagg]

looks like he won away this morning in Spain anyway

 

[roonster09]

When we go away to big teams, Mourinho set the team to play for a draw.. So it's normal that he has a bad record for man united against the big teams. Surprisingly, even LVG has a better record against the big teams

Van Gaal problem was not big games, it was smaller and midtable teams.

 

[carlosp]

Meh didn't he also have a gazillion year unbeaten homestreak at Chelsea? Who cares if his record has been a bit poor lately, if he wins the next 6 who cares.

LVG had a great world cup before coming to Utd, we all know how that ended.

Yeah. 64 home record unbeated in his first spell. Also won 6 trophies including 2 PL titles and the FA Cup. I wouldn't mind that return with that home record.

 

[Red_Beans]

I posted this here regarding Top 6 for this season.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-top-6-against-each-other-away-records.433593/#post-21681016

Top 6 PL - This season is all that matters

City: 2 wins(Liverpool and Chelsea) - 2 Games 6 points
United: 1 Won(Spurs) 1 Draw(Liverpool) - 2 Games 4 points
Chelsea: 1 won(Spurs) 1 lost(City) and 1 draw(Arsenal) - 3 Games 4 points
Liverpool: 1 Won(Arsenal) 2 Lost(City and Spurs) 1 Draw(United) - 3 Games 4 points
Spurs: 2 lost(Chelsea and United) and 1 won(Liverpool) - 3 Games 3 points
Arsenal: 1 Lost(Liverpool) 1 Draw(Chelsea) - 2 Games 1 point

Thank you for posting that, its almost like we deserve to be second in the league

 

[carlosp]

looks like he won away this morning in Spain anyway

haha Yay!

 

[carlosp]

Thank you for posting that, its almost like we deserve to be second in the league

Thing is City haven't really played much against the Top 6 either. Spurs and United will be hard games. Arsenal they should win. So should we against Arsenal. City and Chelsea are games that can make us if we win.

 

[The United]

Regardless of quality of football he's an extremely smart man and one of the best tactical managers going around. I remember reading it somewhere a long time ago, but apparently he'd calculate points game by game and would play accordingly to the goal he had set.

Everything seems calculated with him. Whether or not it works again, we'll have to wait and see. He is getting us closer though.

I mean jose is a very successful manager and all.

But if managers in all professional leagues don't do what you said above, I would be very shocked.

On topic, I think it will be harsh on him even if we lose at SB. It is on par if not worse with anfield for us for a couple of decades.

 

[Womp]

I mean jose is a very successful manager and all.

But the bold part, if managers in all professional leagues don't do what you said above, I would be very shocked.

I don't think they do tbh. A lot of success comes down to windows - picking your moments. Wenger being a prime example. It's been 10 years and he's still trying the same old thing.

 

[The United]

I don't think they do tbh. A lot of success comes down to windows - picking your moments. Wenger being a prime example. It's been 10 years and he's still trying the same old thing.

Not winning the league does not mean he didn't try to do it. It is just that he failed at it.

SAF said in one of his books that he did pretty much the same as you said. Of course, he would.

It is a bit ridiculous to think at least managers from the top European leagues don't do similar. It would be a very common sense thing to do.

 

[Womp]

Do you have anything you based on to say about Wenger? Not winning the league does not mean he didn't try to do it. It is just that he failed.

I can't prove for sure as I don't really follow many managers around.

But, SAF said similar in one of his books that he did pretty much the same as you said. Of course, he would.

It is a bit ridiculous to think at least managers from the top European leagues don't do similar.

Like you I have no idea as I don't see what goes on behind the scenes. I simply said it as a response to that poster. Everything is seemingly calculated with him and more often than not, it's vindicated. Whether or not that's a trait other managers share - I don't know. I certainly don't think some managers do it to the same extent as someone like SAF or Mourinho would, but like I said, that's just my opinion.

 

[breakout67]

Do you have anything you based on to say about Wenger? Not winning the league does not mean he didn't try to do it. It is just that he failed.

I can't prove for sure as I don't really follow many managers around.

But, SAF said similar in one of his books that he did pretty much the same as you said. Of course, he would.

It is a bit ridiculous to think at least managers from the top European leagues don't do similar.

Wenger does not do video reviews of games when they lose, he also doesn't do video previews of the opponents tactics pre-game.

Szczesny said that Arsenal very rarely prepare for the opponent, they mainly focus on fitness.

I wouldnt be surprised if Wenger does most things differently to other managers.

 

[Darkhorsez]

The abuse of "park the bus" phrase is very much real on Redcafe. People even think we parked the bus against Spurs. So not sure what you mean by "park the bus".

Overall yeah we should go with more positive intent in away games against big teams.

Yes this is interesting! I think even when he was winning at Chelsea this term was being used! I think it’s a combination of things. The more someone repeat the same thing over and over, the more it gets associated with “fact”. I am not a huge fan of Mou but one thing that is hard to argue against is that he is a master tactician that get to win trophies. At Liverpool for example we were stuck with next to no options in midfield without making us vulnerable at the back. So not all of this down to tactics ... it’s quality of available players, upcoming games, form and display of selected players etc. But a few of our supporters and most of the media are just a bit lazy and jump on this term to capture an approach to a game. We just to need to come to terms with his style.

 

[The United]

Wenger does not do video reviews of games when they lose, he also doesn't do video previews of the opponents tactics pre-game.

Szczesny said that Arsenal very rarely prepare for the opponent, they mainly focus on fitness.

I wouldnt be surprised if Wenger does most things differently to other managers.

Ok but that does not mean he does not plan how many points he needs from what games.

After all, you still need certain amount of points to get to their goals.

Every manager has to calculate that.

 

[Red_Beans]

Thing is City haven't really played much against the Top 6 either. Spurs and United will be hard games. Arsenal they should win. So should we against Arsenal. City and Chelsea are games that can make us if we win.

The thing with games against the top six is that they rarely influence where the title is going. Beat the other 14 teams home and away and you will be there or there abouts at the end of the season.
These are the games that seem to have have the biggest effect on how a team is viewed though. Set up defensively for these few games a year and you are portrayed as a negative team for the rest of the season

 

[carlosp]

Yes this is interesting! I think even when he was winning at Chelsea this term was being used! I think it’s a combination of things. The more someone repeat the same thing over and over, the more it gets associated with “fact”. I am not a huge fan of Mou but one thing that is hard to argue against is that he is a master tactician that get to win trophies. At Liverpool for example we were stuck with next to no options in midfield without making us vulnerable at the back. So not all of this down to tactics ... it’s quality of available players, upcoming games, form and display of selected players etc. But a few of our supporters and most of the media are just a bit lazy and jump on this term to capture an approach to a game. We just to need to come to terms with his style.

Yep. Even his record against Sir Alex is really good.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mourinho-away-record-against-top-6.433589/#post-21681192

5 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses against Sir Alex with 64 home game win streak and 6 trophies when in his first spell at Chelsea.

People need to remember, he will get results. Yes he might 'park the bus' but he is all about results. We need to support him and the team. Yes he doesn't play exciting football at times but neither did Sir Alex. Sir Alex took time and almost got sent packing when he eventually won. I would rather give Mourinho time and let him win his way and hope he eventually gets a team that he wants and gets them playing attacking football the United way. That is still going to take some time. Maybe next year when we get Griezmann and whoever else to cover the gaps we do currently have in the team.

I think Mourinho is doing the business. Gets results. We are second in the PL, through to last 16 in CL and we still have better players coming in from injury. City will also drop points and if we can stay close to them by New Years, then the lads have a chance to win the league.

 

[Camara]

If they're not including his first season of Chelsea "because they weren't challenging for the title" and conveniently left out results such as the victories in Etihad and Anfield (while drawing the other away games to rivals), why are they including his first year in Manchester United when you came from 5th the year before (not much different from Chelsea)?

Also these are the most difficult games in the league, it's true he "has" the "responsability" as a great manager to be great here, but drawing 5/9 games means you're forcing your rivals to come to your house to decide the head to head combat most of the times.
Not that I think 5 draws in 9 games is good (and like I said Mourinho kinda has to live up to his name), but it's not terrible either. Also this is a 38 games competition.

 

[carlosp]

The thing with games against the top six is that they rarely influence where the title is going. Beat the other 14 teams home and away and you will be there or there abouts at the end of the season.
These are the games that seem to have have the biggest effect on how a team is viewed though. Set up defensively for these few games a year and you are portrayed as a negative team for the rest of the season

I agree and yet people and the media go on about the top 6. It's pointless really. City last season were running away with the league at this point in time. They ended third in the league at the end of the season.

 

[Siorac]

Yes this is interesting! I think even when he was winning at Chelsea this term was being used! I think it’s a combination of things. The more someone repeat the same thing over and over, the more it gets associated with “fact”. I am not a huge fan of Mou but one thing that is hard to argue against is that he is a master tactician that get to win trophies. At Liverpool for example we were stuck with next to no options in midfield without making us vulnerable at the back. So not all of this down to tactics ... it’s quality of available players, upcoming games, form and display of selected players etc. But a few of our supporters and most of the media are just a bit lazy and jump on this term to capture an approach to a game. We just to need to come to terms with his style.

No wonder: he coined it, after all.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/3665180.stm

 

[Hambley]

The thing is you must beat your rivals. It's not just about points, it's about your team level. It's not acceptable to play that bad against rivals. No matter how but you have to beat them.

 

[carlosp]

The thing is you must beat your rivals. It's not just about points, it's about your team level. It's not acceptable to play that bad against rivals. No matter how but you have to beat them.

Sure, if you have a team to beat them with. Mourinho knows he doesn't have a team that can beat every other team so he works around that. To him a draw is acceptable to a loss. If he goes out all gangho and loses, the United fans and media will have a field day.

No Pogba, no Zlatan, no Fellaini, no Rojo. It's all taken a toll on the team. The team currently as is, isn't unbeatable in it's current form. However Mourinho is making the team unbeatable.

People talk about Pogba missing from the team but when Fellaini was in, he did very good too. We were still winning 4-0. Currently, Herrera and Matic just don't seem to work together as well hence the problems we have.

 

[CM]

I'm not really concerned with Mourinho's record pre-United or away games in isolation but there's no doubting his record against the top 6 last season was less than impressive. I can accept a more conservative approach against the rest of the top 6 but going into matches with the sole intention of digging in for a point as we did in both visits to Anfield and City away last season is soul destroying.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a bit more given the investments he's made in the team. Matching the numbers van Gaal managed in these games should be the minimum expectation really.

 

[Darkhorsez]

No wonder: he coined it, after all.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/3665180.stm

Ha ha ! Good one - thanks for sharing. I didn’t remember those comments.

 

[Hambley]

Sure, if you have a team to beat them with. Mourinho knows he doesn't have a team that can beat every other team so he works around that. To him a draw is acceptable to a loss. If he goes out all gangho and loses, the United fans and media will have a field day.

No Pogba, no Zlatan, no Fellaini, no Rojo. It's all taken a toll on the team. The team currently as is, isn't unbeatable in it's current form. However Mourinho is making the team unbeatable.

People talk about Pogba missing from the team but when Fellaini was in, he did very good too. We were still winning 4-0. Currently, Herrera and Matic just don't seem to work together as well hence the problems we have.

This is the second season here for Mourinho. He had 2 summer windows and almost all players, which he wanted, were bought, so he was given almost anything he wanted. It's time to show for him how he can deal with expectations. It's not only about playing against average teams but against top teams either. As Mourinho is considered as a tactical genius he is expected to play well against other top managers. At the end he as a manager will be responsible for results. Noone will blame players or someome else. Neither injuries will be excuses for playing bad against top clubs. Nothing can't be excuse for poor result if it's the same like it was last season against top teams. I hope Jose will change this bad record.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

When you get a manager as good as Jose you take the good with the bad.

 

[sammsky1]

This doesn't surprise me. Stats like these remind me things like "Huddersfield beat united for first time in 63 years". Yes.....after playing them about four times.

I'd be more inclined to read into his stats at united after a second season.

To have set a new club record of being unbeaten at home within 15 months of the job is a more worthy stat given how often we had been embarrassed at old Trafford post Ferguson

If SAF had set such a record, fans and media would be eulogizing him. When Mourinho does it, he is criticised as 'anti-football'. Totally unfair.

 

[Escobar]

Be interested to see LVG's Top 6 record during his time here.

Against the big teams, we did extremely well. The rest was shit though

 

[donkeyfish]

How many did they manage in the home games?

So far Mourinho is justified for aiming to draw at Anfield seeing as we beat Spurs at home. So long as he gets a large amount of points in the return home fixtures of these top 6 matches, his approach to away games is justified. Much as I and many disagree with it.

12 points, we got 8

 

[Escobar]

When you get a manager as good as Jose you take the good with the bad.

This record is shocking but exactly what is the outcome the way he sets the team up. I fully expect it to continue like that now against Chelsea

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Almost as though away games against top 6 opposition are hard to win. Surely not?

No, they are not. I have played Football Manager for years and if you play really attacking football with over-elaborate passing and get thumped then reload your saved games and try again you should get a 3 nil win on the 100th attempt.

 

[red_devil83]

What Fergie's record in his last 10 away games against "top 6"?

His last 5 was
3 Wins
L'pool
Chelsea
City

2 Draws
Arse
Tott

Which looks fantastic but we lost the home fixtures against City, Tott and the Chavs

The 5 before that

W
Arse
Tott

D
Liverpool
Chelsea

L
City

 

[JohnS]

But it also means that Mourinho's "pragmatic" park the bus method doesn't actually yield better results than a more positive approach.

Pragmatic approach: draw 3, get 3 points, your title rivals get 3 points.
Positive approach: win one, get turned over twice, get 3 points, your title rivals get 6 points.
Mourinho is all about win the home games, don't lose the aways.

 

[Hambley]

Positive approach: win one, get turned over twice, get 3 points, your title rivals get 6 points.

No, positive approach is to win 3 and get 9 points

 

[JohnS]

No, positive approach is to win 3 and get 9 points

Hey, I was talking about United, not City *MASSIVESAFETYWINK*