Mourinho tells Paul Pogba he'll never captain Manchester United again

[Infra-red]

If results aren't great and the team isn't performing to its potential? Absolutely.

If the team were playing shite for 2 seasons yes.

In those circumstances they'd be sacking him because of the results and the quality of the football, which are perfectly legitimate reasons to dispense with your manager. The precedent that sets is a good one - if you (the manager) fail to win games or subject us all to having to watch shite football for years, you'll be out on your arse.

That's quite different from sacking the manager because some individual in his squad doesn't like him and keeps telling the world about it. The message that sends is completely wrong and will make the next manager's job nigh impossible.

 

[settembrini]

This argument that you can't sack Mourinho because it's giving in to 'player power' is less convincing than Jones trying to defend against Hazard.

1. If Mourinho ends up getting sacked it will be based on many factors, almost all of which are more important than him and Pogba not seeing eye to eye.
2. The conclusion of this 'logic' is that any time a manager losses the dressing room you have to get rid of the dressing room. There's a reason this never happens.

 

[el3mel]

He could have gone to Barca in the summer, Unitesd said no. Since he asked to leave in the summer, it makes sense he would have talked to Woodward and explain why. Didn't help.

So all you're leaving him with is that he should continue to train and hope something changes. Which, frankly, is not good enough. Very easy for us fans to say he should do nothing and accept the situation. A little harder when it's your career.

It's not really our problem that they brought such a terrible offer. If they rate him that highly why didn't they offer more ?

Yes. He needs to shut down and work without bitching in the media, it doesn't help anyone and it's not his job.

It's how any one of us do in his work when he gets problem. There's something called authority. Your boss has an authority on you even if he's a shite boss. You can hate him, you can talk low about him with your friends but you can't go in public and say he's a shite boss when he's still in work. Otherwise you will get yourself fired. That's how any company works and these are rules. Your boss is your boss, and there's certain rules on dealing with him. If you are putting yourself toe to toe with your boss you won't last long at any job I'm afraid.

 

[Cassidy]

In those circumstances they'd be sacking him because of the results and the quality of the football, which are perfectly legitimate reasons to dispense with your manager. The precedent that sets is a good one - if you (the manager) fail to win games or subject us all to having to watch shite football for years, you'll be out on your arse.

That's quite different from sacking the manager because some individual in his squad doesn't like him and keeps telling the world about it. The message that sends is completely wrong and will make the next manager's job nigh impossible.

So we shouldn't sack Jose because Pogba has been talking, even though he should be sacked for his shite football over the past 2 years. Just so we don't set a precedent and send the wrong message?

 

[Mcking]

You're talking about five years as if what Moyes and LVG have done put Mourinho in a hole you can't get out of. Look at Klopp or Guardiola and how they were able to instill their brand of football. Klopp managed to do so even though some of his players clearly weren't all that great, but he made them look better.

Mourinho got tons of money to replace players, but even the one's he bought haven't been good enough for the most part or. He got two big talents such as Martial and Rashford, and hasn't been able to improve them one bit. In fact, they have gone backwards. If the problem is partially mental, then he hasn't been able to instill his mentality. He hasn't been able to take one player and make him better, make him a quality, consistent player.

So all and all, what has he done for us?

He can't do anything they will say. Klopp and Pep had better football heritage, according to Mourinho.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Most clubs do not abide by it, most clubs are extremely cynical and will side with the most valuable asset whoever that is.

Back in the day, no-one would have said a word about SAF and if they did, they'd be shipped out immediately - happened to RvN, Beckham and others for lesser things.

Right now, we're a complete circus - on the pitch and off. Both Pogba and Mourinho can get lost, to be honest.

 

[JPRouve]

Back in the day, no-one would have said a word about SAF and if they did, they'd be shipped out immediately - happened to RvN, Beckham and others for lesser things.

Right now, we're a complete circus - on the pitch and off. Both Pogba and Mourinho can get lost, to be honest.

Because SAF was objectively the biggest asset of the club, not because he was the manager but because of his abilities and value.

 

[Greck]

To think this week's circus was sparked by a press officer wrongly telling the manager some players were mocking the result. It's true that every workplace has that bootlicker who has no qualms about getting people in trouble to curry favour from the boss

 

[Infra-red]

To all the people wanting Pogba out, do you trust Jose and Woody to replace him well? I don't.

No, not really. But then the same question could be asked of those wanting Mourinho out. Do you trust Woodward to do a good job replacing him?

Personally, I can see the argument for getting rid of both Pogba and Mourinho (in that order) and then drastically reducing Woodward's influence on football matters, with the appointment of a proper Director of Football.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Because SAF was objectively the biggest asset of the club, not because he was the manager but because of his abilities and value.

And everything he believed in and stood for, over 25+ years, was etched into our club. It's why so many support this brilliant football club. And, now you've the last few years were, quite literally, everything is being torn apart.

I remember that meme which depicted the manner in which Moyes destroyed the legacy left behind by SAF - it was funny back then. The truth is, Mourinho included, our last 3 managers have all contributed towards the destruction of this club.

 

[WensleyMU]

You're talking about five years as if what Moyes and LVG have done put Mourinho in a hole you can't get out of. Look at Klopp or Guardiola and how they were able to instill their brand of football. Klopp managed to do so even though some of his players clearly weren't all that great, but he made them look better.

Mourinho got tons of money to replace players, but even the one's he bought haven't been good enough for the most part or. He got two big talents such as Martial and Rashford, and hasn't been able to improve them one bit. In fact, they have gone backwards. If the problem is partially mental, then he hasn't been able to instill his mentality. He hasn't been able to take one player and make him better, make him a quality, consistent player.

So all and all, what has he done for us?

Taken us from 5th, to 2nd in 2 seasons, winning 2 pieces of silverware and reaching another final in the process.

He's also overhauled areas of the team is United fans have been crying out for but he still has work to do. He's made mistakes, it hasn't been pretty at times, far from, but we have done better in his two years than most clubs.

 

[Judas]

Taken us from 5th, to 2nd in 2 seasons, winning 2 pieces of silverware and reaching another final in the process.

He's also overhauled areas of the team is United fans have been crying out for but he still has work to do. He's made mistakes, it hasn't been pretty at times, far from, but we have done better in his two years than most clubs.

Yep. But, will he take us any further or has he taken us as far as he can? Looks very much like the latter to me. I think it would be ignorant for people to claim Jose has done nothing for us, we're better than when he took us over, but parting ways now looks in the best interest of both parties. It's time.

 

[sunama]

So all and all, what has he done for us?

Got us 2nd place (highest league placing since SAF left), won 2 trophies (more than the previous 2 managers combined).

 

[Raees]

Got us 2nd place (highest league placing since SAF left), won 2 trophies (more than the previous 2 managers combined).

Does second place mean anything if the next season you finish outside top 4?

 

[red4ever 79]

I wouldnt play him again, never mind make him captain

 

[rotherham_red]

We'd likely be in the lower half of the table had Pogba not been responsible for 6 goals in 7. He'd even have a better record if the front 3 got their act together. People think due to his laid back demeanour he's not trying.

We as fans have been singing attack, attack, attack for years. If Pogba saying something similar hurts Mourinho's ego, then tough! Do something about the issue. The fans have been pretty patient for over 2 seasons and the club has supported him with massive funds. No excuses or deflection of blame.

Don't expect all footballers to be robots and bow to your previous trophy count or your title as the manager.

You can understand if Mourinho fell out with one player. However, falling out with players has been a recurring theme during his tenure. Shaw, Smalling, Pogba, Bailly, Martial, Jones. There are also recent rumours circulating of a fallout with Rashford.

Fully agree

 

[JPRouve]

And everything he believed in and stood for, over 25+ years, was etched into our club. It's why so many support this brilliant football club. And, now you've the last few years were, quite literally, everything is being torn apart.

I remember that meme which depicted the manner in which Moyes destroyed the legacy left behind by SAF - it was funny back then. The truth is, Mourinho included, our last 3 managers have all contributed towards the destruction of this club.

I'm not sure about the point that you are trying to make but I will say this. We were never going to replace SAF with someone like SAF because that person doesn't exist in football, we needed to adapt and we need to stop with the SAF nostalgia when it comes to practical issues, his legacy can be followed differently but in order to do that we need to start by putting the club first, we need a hierarchy that understand what SAF and Sir Matt Busby legacy actually is.
To me it's simple, United is about team spirit, character, resilience, creativity and enthusiasm. That's the legacy of our great managers, it's not about the set up or inadequate organizational structures.

 

[Santoryo]

DT I really like you but I have to disagree.

If he wasn't coaching them properly, why did we finish in 2nd place last season? Why were we the only team in the (relatively impossible) title race last season?

We were in the title race last season?

Just like his first season, and this season we were already OUT of the title race by DECEMBER.

Get your facts right.

 

[WensleyMU]

Does second place mean anything if the next season you finish outside top 4?

About that... We haven't, seeing as it's September, 1 month into the 10 month season. We've started badly, but there is plenty of time to recover.

Yep. But, will he take us any further or has he taken us as far as he can? Looks very much like the latter to me. I think it would be ignorant for people to claim Jose has done nothing for us, we're better than when he took us over, but parting ways now looks in the best interest of both parties. It's time.

I dont think it is, yet. I would give him more time.

 

[Ban]

And everything he believed in and stood for, over 25+ years, was etched into our club. It's why so many support this brilliant football club. And, now you've the last few years were, quite literally, everything is being torn apart.

I remember that meme which depicted the manner in which Moyes destroyed the legacy left behind by SAF - it was funny back then. The truth is, Mourinho included, our last 3 managers have all contributed towards the destruction of this club.

Destruction? We're a mess but destruction, really? If anything Woodward himself helped in creating a mess we're in now.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I'm not sure about the point that you are trying to make but I will say this. We were never going to replace SAF with someone like SAF because that person doesn't exist in football, we needed to adapt and we need to stop with the SAF nostalgia when it comes to practical issues, his legacy can be followed differently but in order to do that we need to start by putting the club first, we need a hierarchy that understand what SAF and Sir Matt Busby legacy actually is.
To me it's simple, United is about team spirit, character, resilience, creativity and enthusiasm. That's the legacy of our great managers, it's not about the set up or inadequate organizational structures.

Point is, we shouldn't be one of those clubs you mentioned in the post I quoted initially.

 

[JPRouve]

We were in the title race last season?

Just like his first season, and this season we were already OUT of the title race by DECEMBER.

Get your facts right.

After 20 games we were 15 points away from City and 1 away from Chelsea. After 25 games we were 15 points away from City 3 from Liverpool. After 30 games we were 16 points away from City and 4 from Tottenham. After 35 games we were 16 points away from City and 3 from Liverpool.
We were in a title race but not with City.

 

[Santoryo]

After 20 games we were 15 points away from City and 1 away from Chelsea. After 25 games we were 15 points away from City 3 from Liverpool. After 30 games we were 16 points away from City and 4 from Tottenham. After 35 games we were 16 points away from City and 3 from Liverpool.
We were in a title race but not with City.

Race for 2nd place or 4th?

 

[Mcking]

After 20 games we were 15 points away from City and 1 away from Chelsea. After 25 games we were 15 points away from City 3 from Liverpool. After 30 games we were 16 points away from City and 4 from Tottenham. After 35 games we were 16 points away from City and 3 from Liverpool.
We were in a title race but not with City.

2nd place title that is.

 

[crossy1686]

Pogba out, Savic in. Made a clear statement that no one is bigger than the club and everyone is replaceable.

 

[Mcking]

Pogba out, Savic in. Made a clear statement that no one is bigger than the club and everyone is replaceable.

Rather play Herrera and Fellaini.

 

[crossy1686]

We were in the title race last season?

Just like his first season, and this season we were already OUT of the title race by DECEMBER.

Get your facts right.

The points total we ended on would have won the title in something like 12 of the last 15 seasons. City broke all kinds of records last season, this glossing over of our effort last year feels a lot like the re-writing of history to suit people's agenda's to be honest.

 

[crossy1686]

Rather play Herrera and Fellaini.

We all like a brand new shiny player. Herrera and Fellani aren't PL starters for a team like Manchester United.

 

[Mcking]

We all like a brand new shiny player. Herrera and Fellani aren't PL starters for a team like Manchester United.

And neither is Savic. What has Pogba ever done or said to prove that he thinks he his bigger that the club?

 

[crossy1686]

And neither is Savic. What has Pogba ever done or said to prove that he thinks he his bigger that the club?

Don't take my word for it, why not listen to someone who knows more than both of us do?

 

[Santoryo]

The points total we ended on would have won the title in something like 12 of the last 15 seasons. City broke all kinds of records last season, this glossing over of our effort last year feels a lot like the re-writing of history to suit people's agenda's to be honest.

Original argument(which was a lie) = "We were in the title race"

My original rebuttal(which was a fact) = "No we weren't, in fact we've never even come close any of the seasons with Mourinho in charge"

Your argument/reply = a bunch of non sequitur.

 

[Slevs]

The points total we ended on would have won the title in something like 12 of the last 15 seasons. City broke all kinds of records last season, this glossing over of our effort last year feels a lot like the re-writing of history to suit people's agenda's to be honest.

Nevermind the points total and all thosr facts that we'd have won it with that points total in previous seasons. People didn't feel we were in a title race so that's settled. Feelings>facts+previous records

 

[settembrini]

Every time someone posts Carragher's take on this situation I notice a new thing that's wrong with his argument. This time it was the idea that there's no point in United sacking Mournho because player's perform the same no matter who their manager is.

 

[Infra-red]

I'm not sure about the point that you are trying to make but I will say this. We were never going to replace SAF with someone like SAF because that person doesn't exist in football, we needed to adapt and we need to stop with the SAF nostalgia when it comes to practical issues, his legacy can be followed differently but in order to do that we need to start by putting the club first, we need a hierarchy that understand what SAF and Sir Matt Busby legacy actually is.
To me it's simple, United is about team spirit, character, resilience, creativity and enthusiasm. That's the legacy of our great managers, it's not about the set up or inadequate organizational structures.

What does that mean in practical terms?

In this new football paradigm, are players allowed to criticise their managers in public and have them fired if they don't like them? Are managers allowed to tell their players what to do, where to play, drop them from the team etc?

Exactly how will implementing this new approach at United, benefit us.

 

[JPRouve]

Point is, we shouldn't be one of those clubs you mentioned in the post I quoted initially.

Why shouldn't we? It doesn't go against SAF's legacy, United doesn't have a history of not sacking managers. In fact SAF was allegedly appointed with the mandate to change the club culture with players that were allegedly less than professional, Atkinson's overall results weren't bad and it was still relatively early in the season.

The thing is we need be objective, logical and ask ourselves who from the manager and the players is the best asset for the club with the club history and philosophy in mind. It doesn't mean that the players are going to survive the next manager, it just means that a point in time you evaluate your assets and eliminate the ones you rate the least with a short, mid and long term view. The evaluation never stops and from the club's perspective it can't be influenced by status, it's solely based on an objective evaluation of the asset in relation to the club otherwise you put the manager above the club.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Don't take my word for it, why not listen to someone who knows more than both of us do?

Are you actually Jamie Carragher? You've posted this fecking video in three different threads.

 

[wolvored]

Because SAF was objectively the biggest asset of the club, not because he was the manager but because of his abilities and value.

Thats wrong. It was because he was the manager and biggest asset. He commanded respect and he was doing a fantastic job with the training and was coming off with the results. Mourinho was a good manager elsewhere and now hes not. Therein lies the problem. You wouldnt here a peep of discontent if we were winning games and big trophies regularly.

 

[JPRouve]

What does that mean in practical terms?

In this new football paradigm, are players allowed to criticise their managers in public and have them fired if they don't like them? Are managers allowed to tell their players what to do, where to play, drop them from the team etc?

Exactly how will implementing this new approach at United, benefit us.

You are mixing things up and creating scenarios that have nothing to do with what I said but I would never allow a player to criticize the club or an other employee without first asking for an explanation and then eventually sanctioning the player. But it has nothing to do with choosing the manager over the player, it's about not allowing potential disarray, I would have sanctioned Mourinho for his comments too.

 

[crossy1686]

Are you actually Jamie Carragher? You've posted this fecking video in three different threads.

Maybe??? It's worth a watch, people should see it.

 

[JPRouve]

Thats wrong. It was because he was the manager and biggest asset. He commanded respect and he was doing a fantastic job with the training and was coming off with the results. Mourinho was a good manager elsewhere and now hes not. Therein lies the problem. You wouldnt here a peep of discontent if we were winning games and big trophies regularly.

So the managers that the club sacked instead of player weren't managers?