I don't think so. SAF sent away a lot of star players in early 1990s, before he had not won anything with us, when he was not the "biggest asset of the club".Because SAF was objectively the biggest asset of the club, not because he was the manager but because of his abilities and value.
I don't understand his absolute certainty that we would not see a different Paul Pogba under a diffrent manager and he "can assure us that we won't". For starters absolutely nobody can assure or guarantee anyone of that!.Secondly from a logical viewpoint, the idea that switching from a fundamentally defensive and rigid tactical set up, under a manager synonymous with a safety first approach would result in the same performances from an imaginative and creative midfielder in a more expressive attack minded system is completely naive.Don't take my word for it, why not listen to someone who knows more than both of us do?
Carragher is the stereotypical British pundit but, since he is paired usually with Neville he gets more time to explain his nonsense than most.Every time someone posts Carragher's take on this situation I notice a new thing that's wrong with his argument. This time it was the idea that there's no point in United sacking Mournho because player's perform the same no matter who their manager is.
Your first sentence is just wrong. When you evaluate your assets you value their present and future worth, it's a projection and has nothing to do with what you won but what you are expected to provide in the future. That's how you judge which player you are selling, renewing, purchasing, that's how you judge if the manager is an issue or the players.I don't think so. SAF sent away a lot of star players in early 1990s, before he had not won anything with us, when he was not the "biggest asset of the club".
It is a management decision that the owners should make. Do they want to change manager every 2-3 years? Sure, why not? Many clubs do this. Then sack Mourinho.
Do the want the manager to be the boss? Then keep Mourinho and discipline or sell Pogba. And make sure that all players know that the manager is the boss.
First of all, do you really think we would have sold Pogba for a better offer? I think that was a non starter.It's not really our problem that they brought such a terrible offer. If they rate him that highly why didn't they offer more ?
Yes. He needs to shut down and work without bitching in the media, it doesn't help anyone and it's not his job.
It's how any one of us do in his work when he gets problem. There's something called authority. Your boss has an authority on you even if he's a shite boss. You can hate him, you can talk low about him with your friends but you can't go in public and say he's a shite boss when he's still in work. Otherwise you will get yourself fired. That's how any company works and these are rules. Your boss is your boss, and there's certain rules on dealing with him. If you are putting yourself toe to toe with your boss you won't last long at any job I'm afraid.
Aye. And for a club like United, those should be stepping stones to bigger and better things. Problem is, they haven't been because while he got those he never managed to instill a clear game plan or improve one single player. He spent tons of money on players who are underperforming, and overall, finished those first two years when we don't look like a team ready to take the step.Got us 2nd place (highest league placing since SAF left), won 2 trophies (more than the previous 2 managers combined).
Just think like a pundit for a second.I don't understand his absolute certainty that we would not see a different Paul Pogba under a diffrent manager and he "can assure us that we won't". For starters absolutely nobody can assure or guarantee anyone of that!.Secondly from a logical viewpoint, the idea that switching from a fundamentally defensive and rigid tactical set up, under a manager synonymous with a safety first approach would result in the same performances from an imaginative and creative midfielder in a more expressive attack minded system is completely naive.
We've also spent a lot more than most clubs.Taken us from 5th, to 2nd in 2 seasons, winning 2 pieces of silverware and reaching another final in the process.
He's also overhauled areas of the team is United fans have been crying out for but he still has work to do. He's made mistakes, it hasn't been pretty at times, far from, but we have done better in his two years than most clubs.
That only works if Mourinho is doing a good enough job. Keeping him when he should already have been fired just to send a message would hardly be for the benefit of the club.Do the want the manager to be the boss? Then keep Mourinho and discipline or sell Pogba. And make sure that all players know that the manager is the boss.
Funnily enough, less than the two who are more successful than us the past 5 years.We've also spent a lot more than most clubs.
Well you should expect an uptick in league position when you spend £400mTaken us from 5th, to 2nd in 2 seasons, winning 2 pieces of silverware and reaching another final in the process.
He's also overhauled areas of the team is United fans have been crying out for but he still has work to do. He's made mistakes, it hasn't been pretty at times, far from, but we have done better in his two years than most clubs.
During Jose time at United we only spent less than CityFunnily enough, less than the two who are more successful than us the past 5 years.
Exactly, it's as if people missed the part where the manager has a job to do for the club, the way he performs it will determine to which degree he is dispensable. The same applies with players. What people are suggesting is clear mismanagement where they put image over substance and management with clichés.That only works if Mourinho is doing a good enough job. Keeping him when he should already have been fired just to send a message would hardly be for the benefit of the club.
I disagree with you.First of all, do you really think we would have sold Pogba for a better offer? I think that was a non starter.
As for the rest, comparing football to other jobs is plain wrong, for several reason. One is that in other jobs, you can quit. Second is in football, and sports in general, careers are short so 'waiting it out' is a lot tougher because there's a bigger price to pay. And third - in football, in general, the players are bigger stars than their their managers. It's not the usual boss-employee situation.
Football is a business like no other business. If I felt I had a manager who was harming my career, I'd leave. You want Pogba to shut up and hope things improve. I understand why he won't.
Well, let's look at this another way. If football is a business like any other business, would Mourinho still have a job after his performance over the last two years, including his remarks regarding the lads who work under him?I disagree with you.
Football is no different to any other business. A CEO/CFO will always focus on the talent and if that talents rough edges are adversely affecting the sum of the parts than the most adverse part has to go.
Naturally the value of those parts might be harder to compare, but it a marketing and sales director were in dispute you could have similar challenges and have to decide who has the biggest impact.
And I believe very few people are saying we failed beacuse he hasn't won the league or the CL. It's the way we play and the way our players have stuttered, which more than hints to us NOT being able to make the next step in the future.Funnily enough, less than the two who are more successful than us the past 5 years.
Exactly it's just wishful thinking from him - look at Pogba under conte, deschamps and allegri. Completely different to how he is under Jose and for the better.I don't understand his absolute certainty that we would not see a different Paul Pogba under a diffrent manager and he "can assure us that we won't". For starters absolutely nobody can assure or guarantee anyone of that!.Secondly from a logical viewpoint, the idea that switching from a fundamentally defensive and rigid tactical set up, under a manager synonymous with a safety first approach would result in the same performances from an imaginative and creative midfielder in a more expressive attack minded system is completely naive.
Probably because letting him go is really expensive and his failure is only relative, the club has acceptable performances and makes money. The issue is with the relative part and at which point his performances and attitude become detrimental to the point where sacking him his worth the money it will cost.Well, let's look at this another way. If football is a business like any other business, would Mourinho still have a job after his performance over the last two years, including his remarks regarding the lads who work under him?
Most certainly when you weigh up his achievements. I saw an interesting piece that said both have been at the club the same amount of time, but Mourinho with two trophies and a 2nd place is more of an achievement than anything Pogba has done for United.Well, let's look at this another way. If football is a business like any other business, would Mourinho still have a job after his performance over the last two years, including his remarks regarding the lads who work under him?
Well, that brings me right back to original claim. Football is a business like no other business. What could have been right for Apple is irrelevant to us. United are going nowhere with Mourinho. Not in terms of football and achievements, anyway.Most certainly when you weigh up his achievements. I saw an interesting piece that said both have been at the club the same amount of time, but Mourinho with two trophies and a 2nd place is more of an achievement than anything Pogba has done for United.
You also have to look at how easy it is to improve upon Mourinho and that is far from a sure thing. Sometimes better to let the project run on than to start again from a cost perspective.
I've seen top senior guys described as 'spikey', but that offer a lot from a business driving point of view.
Managing personalities is an industry in itself and those personalities have common attributes in all environments
Mourinho also needs to be outed.The rat and his agent need to be banished from the club immediately.
Mourinho needs to be backed on any in/out.
No he doesn't. He's the only one at the club who has a hunger to win. He wants it more than any owner/board member/player and he's the one people want rid of.Mourinho also needs to be outed.
For me it's not even about that. I don't see any problem with saying we should attack more. If you really support the club you support it's traditions, you won't see any problem with saying we should attack more.People wanna have their cake and eat it.
It's OK for Mourinho to have a go at the players and higher-ups (questioning Woodward regarding transfers) but not OK for Pogba who's on the pitch to say we should be more attacking?
It's not OK for either of them, but it's Mourinho who gave Pogba the example to follow when he opted to run his mouth to the media about everything.
You can quit in football. Bring a good offer suits your value and you can leave any time. No one is forced to play for any club.First of all, do you really think we would have sold Pogba for a better offer? I think that was a non starter.
As for the rest, comparing football to other jobs is plain wrong, for several reason. One is that in other jobs, you can quit. Second is in football, and sports in general, careers are short so 'waiting it out' is a lot tougher because there's a bigger price to pay. And third - in football, in general, the players are bigger stars than their their managers. It's not the usual boss-employee situation.
Football is a business like no other business. If I felt I had a manager who was harming my career, I'd leave. You want Pogba to shut up and hope things improve. I understand why he won't.
That's the scary part. Whether you like Jose or not, I feel like he's the one that is more aligned with the fans and what is expected. The players and Woodward don't seem to be. Jose does go about it perhaps in the wrong way sometimes, but I think he's really frustrated here and lashes out at those he thinks can make a difference but aren't for whatever reason.No he doesn't. He's the only one at the club who has a hunger to win. He wants it more than any owner/board member/player and he's the one people want rid of.
I think everybody, including Mourinho, wants us to play better going forward. Jose has said many times that he's not happy with the players sitting deep etc. It just feels insubordinate for Pogba to say it, as though everyone else is the problem. I thought he had a good game against wolves apart from the error, but there's more he could do to allow us to be a better team. Mainly off the ball and with his consistency and decision making. Thing is, he doesn't realise that our midfield being solid provides the platform for attack. He seems to think it's all about the flash shit he does on the ball.For me it's not even about that. I don't see any problem with saying we should attack more. If you really support the club you support it's traditions, you won't see any problem with saying we should attack more.
Regarding wanting us to attack more, that's completely fine, however part where he says "I'm not the manager" that's the issue and he probably shouldn't have said it even tho I can understand why he's said it.For me it's not even about that. I don't see any problem with saying we should attack more. If you really support the club you support it's traditions, you won't see any problem with saying we should attack more.
You can leave a club, it's not like quitting. Normally in real life, you simple hand in your resignation. In football, a club has no obligation to sell you. And sometimes they don't. And even if they are willing, you need another club to pay a transfer fee, which sometimes clubs fail to agree. There's a huge difference.You can quit in football. Bring a good offer suits your value and you can leave any time. No one is forced to play for any club.
If he made his intentions clear earlier in summer, and Barca came with a magnificent offer, with a lot of time to bring replacement, I think we could have discussed it yeah.
Don't think a club will be happy keeping an unhappy player who wants out. It can turn toxic for everyone fast.You can leave a club, it's not like quitting. Normally in real life, you simple hand in your resignation. In football, a club has no obligation to sell you. And sometimes they don't. And even if they are willing, you need another club to pay a transfer fee, which sometimes clubs fail to agree. There's a huge difference.
Arrrgggh Jamie Carragher. Imagine Mourinho at Liverpool, messing up everything, getting dominated by Championship opposition, playing soul crushing football and picking up a fight with Liverpool's best player. Lets not pretend that Carragher would make those exact comments.Don't take my word for it, why not listen to someone who knows more than both of us do?
No I'd rather Mourinho do his job and coach the team properly and Pogba train and do his job properly. And I want both of them to take responsibility for their failures if they feel the need to bitch to the media rather than keeping things in-house.Indeed they should. You presumably would rather Paul Pogba takes over responsibility for managing the team?
Mourinho is not the boss, he is a manager(head coach more like), he can point out the mistakes in players on occasion to the press but not throw them under the bus repeatedly to save face. And none of this would be happening if Mourinho can coach properly, he is struggling to set up a proper attack after two years, he can't keep deflecting his short-comings on to the players and expect them to knuckle under for long.Edit Incidentally, I'm actually in favour of devolving some of the power Ferguson had (eg I have no problem at all with the 'Head Coach' model, with transfers devolved to a Director of Football - but even in that scenario, players criticising their boss publicly, absolutely has to be a no-go, and I'd expect the club to side with the coach against any player who was seeking to undermine his authority.
Sorry dont understandSo the managers that the club sacked instead of player weren't managers?
To be honest I reread your post and I'm not even sure about what we are arguing other than being the manager had nothing to do with it, I agree with the rest since it was my point. If you perform at a high level and if you are the biggest asset, the club will always back you which was the case for SAF. Where I disagree is with the reverse argument that because you are the manager then you are the biggest asset, that argument would suggest that all managing appointments are correct at the time of the appointment and during the entire course of the tenure which is obviously wrong.Sorry dont understand
