Mkhitaryan, Fred and Lindelof all had about 2-3 months of absence at the start of their United careers, and Bailly had a similar period in the middle of his first season too (although that was after an injury). Pogba got dropped for a few weeks too.Who are you referring to exactly? Bailly and Ibrahimovic were integral to our cup successes and they made an immediate impact. Pogba had always been a divisve figure but he basically started every game and he had been brilliant imo. Mkhitaryan, and the later replacement Alexis, were also given extensive chances before they were widely considered as failed signings and sent to the bench. The fact that they failed later on elsewhere supported this decision. You may not rate Lukaku or Matic but it's undeniable that they were regular starters for us.
The cases of Lindelof and Fred were a bit trickier. They obviously came from a less competitive league and it always took time for these players to adapt to the intense, physical Premier League. Fabinho didn't start a single game for 3 months after he joined Liverpool and now he's crucial to the team. For me, Lindelof was still introduced prematurely due to the injury crisis at that time. If he were given more time to adjust, he would have developed more confidence and been more prepared to the physicality here.
Football in real life is different from that in video games. You can't expect every new signing to walk straight into the new team and adapt to a new system casually, especially when the player is from a less competitive league. Fabinho was a 40m signing and he hadn't played a single minute in the league, until both Henderson and Lallana were injured in late October. Bernardo was bought for 50m and only had 3 league starts out of a possible 16 from his arrival to mid December. Were they bad signings?Mkhitaryan, Fred and Lindelof all had about 2-3 months of absence at the start of their United careers, and Bailly had a similar period in the middle of his first season too (although that was after an injury). Pogba got dropped for a few weeks too.
These were all £30m plus signings, not kids, and he either decided after buying them that they were not good enough or they didn't fit into what he was trying to achieve. Which begs the question, why sign them?
I didn’t say they were bad signings, most have them have proven to be decent since Mourinho left. And that’s the problem. He bought them and couldn’t get them to work. And he had plenty of time to do so.Football in real life is different from that in video games. You can't expect every new signing to walk straight into the new team and adapt to a new system casually, especially when the player is from a less competitive league. Fabinho was a 40m signing and he hadn't played a single minute in the league, until both Henderson and Lallana were injured in late October. Bernardo was bought for 50m and only had 3 league starts out of a possible 16 from his arrival to mid December. Were they bad signings?
I guess Mourinho wanted instant upgrades to our squad as much as you, that's why he wanted to bring in the likes of Maguire, Perisic and Willian. They were established players and were likely to give instant impact to the team. However, Woodward only managed to purchase inferior options for the club. In this sense it's understandable that they needed more time adapt to a much bigger club than they had previously played.I didn’t say they were bad signings, most have them have proven to be decent since Mourinho left. And that’s the problem. He bought them and couldn’t get them to work. And he had plenty of time to do so.
Fabinho and Silva also came into completely different scenarios. Both joined already cohesive and established teams and those teams could afford time for them to adjust. We were expecting instant upgrades on our poor squad and for the manager who bought them to know what to do with them.
Rubbish. Everyone he bought bar Dalot was an established pro, some even voted best player in their league the season prior to arriving.I guess Mourinho wanted instant upgrades to our squad as much as you, that's why he wanted to bring in the likes of Maguire, Perisic and Willian. They were established players and were likely to give instant impact to the team. However, Woodward only managed to purchase inferior options for the club. In this sense it's understandable that they needed more time adapt to a much bigger club than they had previously played.
Rubbish. Expecting players from the Ukrainian and Swedish league to walk straight into the team is even more bizarre. Tbh I don't think Mourinho's signings are good at all, and I give him a C+ for transfers, but the way you use playing time in the first 2 months as an indicator is absurd.Rubbish. Everyone he bought bar Dalot was an established pro, some even voted best player in their league the season prior to arriving.
Defence of Mourinho is bizarre.
That's not really true. LVG never really had us playing good football bar 3 or so games. He was the manager that really hurt us. He clearly had no real sense of long term planning for us and was not sympathetic to the club or the players he had. He wasted so much money trying to overhaul the squad. He generally has a bad transfer record for his career and at United, seemed to embrace this shamelessly. The very definition of a manager who needed checks and balances. Had us playing boring, aimless football with poor players that he bought and chucked away.Jose's first 18 months were great in the job and were the best we have said since fergie, however he lost the plot and it became a shit show.
LVG had us playing the best football espically in his first season when Carrick came back and we smahed spurs, Liverpool at anfield and city however he could keep up the momentum and lead to some very dull football.
Moyes was just shithouse plain and simple.
That was only one of the criterias I used in this debate. And it's convenient how you keep leaving out the more stablished players like Pogba and Mkhi who were both misused, dropped and slated.Rubbish. Expecting players from the Ukrainian and Swedish league to walk straight into the team is even more bizarre. Tbh I don't think Mourinho's signings are good at all, and I give him a C+ for transfers, but the way you use playing time in the first 2 months as an indicator is absurd.
We were playing good football when Carrick, Blind and Herrera partnering in midfield, but when Leicester beat us 5-3 from a 3-1 lead (though that was a bad refereeing), LVG realized that we were very vulnerable in defense with them, then start to be more conservative football. After Carrick was declining, his mistake was not investing in DM position more, had a bad transfer with big names who just wanted a big wages. Mourinho did fixed the problem with Matic, and it works until he is declining and made the same mistake. Both LVG and Mou first 2 seasons wasn't that bad, but they were working for their own interest not rebuilding the squad after Moyes made a big mess in just 1 year.That's not really true. LVG never really had us playing good football bar 3 or so games. He was the manager that really hurt us. He clearly had no real sense of long term planning for us and was not sympathetic to the club or the players he had. He wasted so much money trying to overhaul the squad. He generally has a bad transfer record for his career and at United, seemed to embrace this shamelessly. The very definition of a manager who needed checks and balances. Had us playing boring, aimless football with poor players that he bought and chucked away.
That match was sad because that team had a lot of potential. But firstly Vardy dived for a penalty that got Leicester back in the game and secondly Tyler Blackett had a nightmare. Blackett was awful, several levels below the required level and was never going to be. But Van Gaal seemed to abandon attacking football based on the team failing with Blackett in it. If you took Blackett out, it might have had a shot.We were playing good football when Carrick, Blind and Herrera partnering in midfield, but when Leicester beat us 5-3 from a 3-1 lead (though that was a bad refereeing), LVG realized that we were very vulnerable in defense with them, then start to be more conservative football. After Carrick was declining, his mistake was not investing in DM position more, had a bad transfer with big names who just wanted a big wages. Mourinho did fixed the problem with Matic, and it works until he is declining and made the same mistake. Both LVG and Mou first 2 seasons wasn't that bad, but they were working for their own interest not rebuilding the squad after Moyes made a big mess in just 1 year.
For me LVG=Mourinho >>> Moyes
Where does all this come from. We only beat QPR during his first 5 games. He spent the first three losing or drawing woth the 352. From Fenruary to April he had his decent run of big game wins lasting 5 games or so. After that, his second season was terrible, in compete form. There was nothing about 15-16 that was good. That was the worst team we ever had and he created it. Plus, he only had two seasons.We were playing good football when Carrick, Blind and Herrera partnering in midfield, but when Leicester beat us 5-3 from a 3-1 lead (though that was a bad refereeing), LVG realized that we were very vulnerable in defense with them, then start to be more conservative football. After Carrick was declining, his mistake was not investing in DM position more, had a bad transfer with big names who just wanted a big wages. Mourinho did fixed the problem with Matic, and it works until he is declining and made the same mistake. Both LVG and Mou first 2 seasons wasn't that bad, but they were working for their own interest not rebuilding the squad after Moyes made a big mess in just 1 year.
For me LVG=Mourinho >>> Moyes
Vidic, Evra, and Rio already made their exits while Moyes was here. He also gave Rooney the 6-year( contract on insane wages.Where does all this come from. We only beat QPR during his first 5 games. He spent the first three losing or drawing woth the 352. From Fenruary to April he had his decent run of big game wins lasting 5 games or so. After that, his second season was terrible, in compete form. There was nothing about 15-16 that was good. That was the worst team we ever had and he created it. Plus, he only had two seasons.
Mourinho was far superior in every way shape or form. In truth, I would also take Moyes as well. As bad as he performed, Moyes did not decimate our team. He may have if given the chance, but he did not. I'm sure even if he did, he would not have replaced them as badly as Van Gaal did. Van Gaal's two years set us back by 3 seasons. He didn't even have the ability or personality to make use of the one good player he signed, Di Maria.
Evra still managed to give Juve two seasons. The problem isn't just that they left but whom he replaced them with. Nearly all of his signings were terrible. Furthermore, his personal beef with players got in the way of the team. He ruthlessly got rid of some of our last remaining decent players and signed significantly worse players are replacements. His football was unwatchable for the majority of his reign and the players were never happy with him. With Moyes, even though performances were poor, our transfer kitty was still intact with Moyes. Given the level of backing in the transfer market that he received and the outcome of the performances and transfers, he was clearly worse even if he is a better tactical manager.Vidic, Evra, and Rio already made their exits while Moyes was here. He also gave Rooney the 6-year( contract on insane wages.
In those 2 LvG seasons where we were apparently drawing and losing every game and in terrible form, we finished 4th and 5th (by one point), as compared to 7th, 5th, 2nd, and 6th in the other seasons since SAF retired. Hardly out of place and better than all but one.
I was against the sale of Nani and Rafael, and thought they had something to offer. The rest did not. Kagawa was half-replaced by Mata and would be replaced by Pogba and Mkhi, both better. Hernandez vs Rashford or Martial is no contest. Zaha was frozen out by Moyes for the entire season.Evra still managed to give Juve two seasons. The problem isn't just that they left but whom he replaced them with. Nearly all of his signings were terrible. Furthermore, his personal beef with players got in the way of the team. He ruthlessly got rid of some of our last remaining decent players and signed significantly worse players are replacements. His football was unwatchable for the majority of his reign and the players were never happy with him. With Moyes, even though performances were poor, our transfer kitty was still intact with Moyes. Given the level of backing in the transfer market that he received and the outcome of the performances and transfers, he was clearly worse even if he is a better tactical manager.
People seem to be forgetting the endless side passes and the complete lack of invention within the team. The truth about it is, his system required higher quality players than we possessed in order to work. But the fact is, he was given the finances to make that team and instead squandered it on short lived strategies ( 352) and players he would later not use. It was a really inconsiderate and wasteful use of funds. Other clubs could only dream of the type of backing. Within the same period, both Spurs and Chelsea built good teams with significantly less funds. He sold Kagawa, Nani, Hernandez, Welbeck, Zaha and Rafael and replaced them with players with a third of their quality, while keeping our worst players.
I am still not wholly sold on Ole with regard to him getting the best out of his team or being good enough to take us where we want to be but as we are more more stable as team meaning that his rebuild has gone on nicely. If we get a top attacking player to compliment Rashford and Martial I think we will go up a level or two considering the creativity we now have in midfield irregardless of Ole's qualities.We will see if Ole gets discussed with these or if he manages to do a better job.
So far the results have been worse since the early bounce , but we still have everything to play for this season.
Weird post. Building and managing the squad is probably the most important quality of all. That's where Moyes, LvG and Mourinho all ultimately failed.If we get a top attacking player to compliment Rashford and Martial I think we will go up a level or two considering the creativity we now have in midfield irregardless of Ole's qualities.
I disagree with LVGs recruitment, I feel the players he brought were for his system, they suited it and could play it well.In my opinion all three were as bad as each other but they had different strengths and weaknesses.
Moyes messed up badly by not pushing for more players or chasing more attainable players in the summer of 2013. Getting rid of Fergie's old staff also left him exposed during a crucial period. Maybe its because he didn't get as much time to do some more damage as the other two got but in hindsight I think he didnt leave us too badly damaged, as in the players we needed the previous summer were still the ones LVG needed - a new LB, couple of CBs, CM and winger.
LVG brought some respectability to the dugout after the Moyes debacle but my word the recruitment was just disastrous. I think pound for pound, bar Martial, every player he signed was worse than the player he had come in to replace. Also some of the players he sold like Nani, Evans and Rafael are players I felt that he needed for his system to work but even after the much needed clear out he just didn't sign any good players and held his team back by putting his attacking eggs in the Rooney basket.
Jose spent a lot of money but his football regressed with time. He was massively backed but stilled some questionable decisions and I think he knew that he was done the moment the Sanchez signing backfired - Sanchez was supposed to be the 20 goals + assist type of forward that would compliment Lukaku and Pogba but it never worked out that way and he had to go because his presence was just toxic at the end.
I think we hurt ourselves pretty badly when we appointed Van Gaal after Moyes and again when we brought in Mourinho after LVG. Had we got someone who would take stock of the situation and look to rehabilitate some of the squad players we had from the Fergie era instead of selling them by the bundle we wouldn't have been in a mess when Ole came in. In Evans, Michael Keane, Nani, Chicharito, Welbeck Rafael and Evra we had serviceable players who could have played important squad roles.
I think our failure has been on recruitment but for the first time since Fergie I think we are going into a season where we don't need five or six players. If we just get the Right Wing, DM and a striker our team will shift a level in terms of competitiveness. This is testament to how well Ole has done.
He started Fletcher, Herrera, or Cleverly during the first three losing or drawing. The 3-5-2 was failed him because most his players didn't have any experience on that formation, it start to click the attacking football when Blind joined the team but the defense was still in a shambles. Blackett, Rojo, Smalling, Jones, and Evans were the parade of clowns that over-hyped by our fans after we lost Ferdinand, Vidic, and Evra (our beloved Moyesy didn't decimate the team, eh?).Where does all this come from. We only beat QPR during his first 5 games. He spent the first three losing or drawing woth the 352. From Fenruary to April he had his decent run of big game wins lasting 5 games or so. After that, his second season was terrible, in compete form. There was nothing about 15-16 that was good. That was the worst team we ever had and he created it. Plus, he only had two seasons.
Mourinho was far superior in every way shape or form. In truth, I would also take Moyes as well. As bad as he performed, Moyes did not decimate our team. He may have if given the chance, but he did not. I'm sure even if he did, he would not have replaced them as badly as Van Gaal did. Van Gaal's two years set us back by 3 seasons. He didn't even have the ability or personality to make use of the one good player he signed, Di Maria.
Didn't Moyes start well though. CS win over Wigan and then 4-1 vs Swansea. Pre season was pure disaster though, but it doesn't normally matter much.Both LVG and Mou earlier seasons are better than latter. They're still top managers with good CV albeit going out of time and doesn't fit our United profile. Mou is the only one for me that showed he can be a fitting United manager (season 16/17) but alas he can't betray his real football nor himself (17/18 onwards).
Moyes though is a disaster from the get go.
It's irrelavent how many PL the backline had won. The only thing that mattered was their ability at that time. To me they had been well past their prime and become liabilities to the team. Vidic conceded a penalty and got a red card in his competitive debut at Inter, then he made an error leading to a goal after his return from suspension. He made so many mistakes that he was heavily criticized and widely labelled as a flop. He later became out of favor and was released.I was against the sale of Nani and Rafael, and thought they had something to offer. The rest did not. Kagawa was half-replaced by Mata and would be replaced by Pogba and Mkhi, both better. Hernandez vs Rashford or Martial is no contest. Zaha was frozen out by Moyes for the entire season.
LvG vs Moyes is no contest. He got rid of all these you mentioned - but as I said Moyes got rid of that 5-times PL winning backline. Sideways pases were boring but we had some structure to our play, we did not collapse against every single big team we met.
4W1L v Liverpool, 2W1L vs City, 2W2L vs Arsenal, 3D1L vs Chelsea. 8 wins and 5 losses. A record comparable to what we were getting under SAF.
Compare that to 1-4 and 0-3 against City, 0-1 and 0-3 vs Liverpool, 0-0 and 1-3 vs Chelsea, 1-0 and 0-0 vs Arsenal. 1 win and 5 losses in a single season. Disgrace, the result of a scrappy relegation team to get away with a 0-0 at home and lose badly every other time. 3 times these teams scored more than 3 goals against us. And it's not like we were playing great passing or attacking football either.
About the signings - Martial, Herrera, Blind, Romero were all good. Depay was worth a gamble at the price. Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger were disappointments but they looked good previously, we were all happy when we got them. AdM is the mystery - obviously didn't fit in his system, hated it here, etc. Felt like it was the start of something massive and then fell apart in weeks. Falcao was an obvious failure and out-of-place (RvP and Rooney already here) from the start, it was clear even then we shouldn't have signed him.
And no, Moyes didn't destroy finances. But he took over an intact title-winning squad from which there were no exits. He spent all summer chasing nonsense, passed up Fellaini, then went back and heavily overpaid for a mediocre midfielder, and never even got the best from his own ex-player. Mata was a panic buy, again someone he never used properly, and wasn't cheap at the time either - we spent 70m on 2 players, probably equivalent to more than 100m now. If he had been given the next summer to re-build that team with the entire backline leaving, he would have spent more, just like LvG, and mostly ended up with dross, because that's what he did and has done at mostly every job since.
Oh you forgot one of the worst things LvG did wrongHe started Fletcher, Herrera, or Cleverly during the first three losing or drawing. The 3-5-2 was failed him because most his players didn't have any experience on that formation, it start to click the attacking football when Blind joined the team but the defense was still in a shambles. Blackett, Rojo, Smalling, Jones, and Evans were the parade of clowns that over-hyped by our fans after we lost Ferdinand, Vidic, and Evra (our beloved Moyesy didn't decimate the team, eh?).
Blind was sacrificed to play on defense to lead our amateur defenders, then we started winning games with a conservative football. His second season was the opposite of the first one with the same problem; No Creativity, No Defense, Injuries. Another problem with the main striker after losing Van Persie we only had Martial, Chicharito, or Rooney. The team's quality was miles behind our rivals but we still won the FA Cup. Was Moyes decimate the team? Of course He was, and he would harm the squad more if given the chance for another season. His story about why he never had the money in the market is a delusional, the truth was none of his transfer target would came for him in a million years, while the big names like LVG and Mourinho would attract players.
Moyes
Hit: Decent transfer: Juan Mata (half season)
Miss:
- Bad transfer: Fellaini
- Had no plan
- Rooney's 6 years contract extension
- Ferdinand, Vidic, and Evra wanted out before the season end
- Promote Januzaj and let Zaha went back to Palace
- Never investing on attacking option
- finish 7th (the worst in 30 years)
LVG
Hit:
- Promote Rashford
- Investing on Martial
- Move players from his natural position to fill the gap of defense
- Sold the deadwood: Buttner, Macheda, Bebe, Wellbeck, Cleverley, and co (should be done by Moyes)
- Decent transfer: Herrera, Blind, Shaw, Romero, Martial
- Winning FA Cup
- Winning against direct rivals
Miss:
- Bad transfer: Depay, Falcao, DiMaria, Darmian, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger
- Boring
- Finish 5th in his 2nd season (only by goals different)
Mikhi wasn't misused and his career post United has been just as underwhelming as his United one. He was brought due to his potential with BVB but he simply never managed to make it here or even at Arsenal, with him ending at Roma now after what, one year with Arsenal ? At both clubs he got strikes of good games and a big list of shitty ones.That was only one of the criterias I used in this debate. And it's convenient how you keep leaving out the more stablished players like Pogba and Mkhi who were both misused, dropped and slated.
If you don't think Mourinho's signings were very good, why are you even debating with me? We are in agreement.
I could hardly call the promotion of Rashford a hit for van Gaal. He just handed debuts to a large bunch of players and hoped they'd be successful one day, on a trial and error basis. He obviously wanted to promote Wilson but only his injury forced him to use Rashford instead.Van Gaal's decent transfers that you listed we actually bad, especially when equated for value. Moving players from their natural positions to fill gaps is also a bad thing. Furthermore, Cleverley and Welbeck were not deadwood. They were good squad options and should not have been sold. They are better than the majority of the players he signed. He also cleared our best players from Fergie: Nani- He didnt even have the wing options yet sold him, Hernandez and Kagawa. Romero is a back up option. Herrera imo was rather overrated, but out of all the names, you could say that he was the best signing for value which says a lot in itself. Promoting Januzaj was a plus for Moyes and not elevating him was a miss for LVG.
Van Gaal is clearly a better manager than Moyes, but in terms of long term planning and what he left, he was much worse. He dismantled our squad, booting players like Rafael for persona reasons. Even investing in Martial should not be counted as a plus as he cost a lot of money and has not yet produced consistently.
LVG only did two things imo: promote Rashford and winning the FA cup. However, he left us in a far worse place than Moyes had, with millions of transfer cash spent on absolute rubbish. Because of his wastefulness, it limited Mourinho's ability in the transfer market as the scars of bad transfers and big contracts had already happened.
Obviously he left out plenty of van Gaal's failings to suit his agenda for van Gaal against Moyes.Oh you forgot one of the worst things LvG did wrong
He sold a bunch of good players for absolutely nothing - we basically gave Nani, M.Keane, Rafael and Evans away.
He's just naming good player's that he's heard of at this point. His transfers were a disaster at a time when we still had a big financial advantage. He never mentions Kroos who by most accounts he turned down. He's still going on about wanting quick wingers when he sold Nani and Zaha for peanuts and benched Di Maria for Ashley Young once he had abandoned his awful 5-3-2 system that he bought the likes of Rojo for.Van Gaal names the players he tried to sign as Utd Manager, says he did not get one of his top 10 targets and was kept out of all negotiations with potential signings.
Some of those players we were never going get no matter how hard we tried but also some players there we should have been able to sign.
And then there is James Milner , don't really know what to say about that one.
Robert Lewandowski
Gonzalo Higuain
Neymar
Thomas Muller
Sadio Mane
Riyad Mahrez.
Sergio Ramos
Mats Hummels
N’Golo Kante
James Milner
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/louis-van-gaal-man-utd-22571650
Kante sounds like nonsense. There's no way he would have chosen Leicester over us back then.Van Gaal names the players he tried to sign as Utd Manager, says he did not get one of his top 10 targets and was kept out of all negotiations with potential signings.
Some of those players we were never going get no matter how hard we tried but also some players there we should have been able to sign.
And then there is James Milner , don't really know what to say about that one.
Robert Lewandowski
Gonzalo Higuain
Neymar
Thomas Muller
Sadio Mane
Riyad Mahrez.
Sergio Ramos
Mats Hummels
N’Golo Kante
James Milner
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/louis-van-gaal-man-utd-22571650
