MPFG Draft: QF - Himannv vs General_Elegancia/Invictus

With players at their peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,970
Himannv



General_Elegancia/Invictus



Himannv

Formation: 4-4-2

Tactics:
  • Team built to give Beckenbauer freedom to impact the game in defense, midfield, and attack.
  • There is pressing involved but the team generally holds shape, particularly in the defensive phase.

Beckenbauer:
  • Drops deeper to collect the ball from the keeper or defense when needed.
  • Generally runs the game from midfield.
  • Looks to pick out one of the strikers up front.
  • Switches the play to flanks when one of the wingers or fullbacks are free.
  • Steps forward into attacking areas to either create a chance for someone else or score himself.

The support cast:
  • Keegan is great at receiving long passes and makes runs off the ball.
  • Krankl plays off the shoulder of the last man and constantly makes runs to get on the end of passes and score.
  • Mackay acts as the DM when Kaiser steps forward and also acts as a secondary creative force in midfield if Kaiser is blocked.
  • Zagallo and Conti add defensive workrate and help support the midfield when they don't have the ball, but are good options for out balls wide.
  • The fullbacks are balanced and help out both offensively and defensively.
  • McGrath helps with playing out from the back
  • Ferri is a pure stopper and an ever-present defensive presence.

Videos of key players:

Zagallo was such a little guy but he worked his socks off and was skilled on the ball as well.



General_Elegancia/Invictus

  • Formation: fairly straight-forward and vertically oriented 4—3—3, with Alfredo Di Stéfano as the box-to-box “architect” of the team.
  • Style: Relentless and proactive from start to finish, lots of pressing and also interplay given the personnel at hand, and a near-constant emphasis on the attacking side of the game.
  • Special instruction(s): target Beckenbauer, as containing him would dramatically decrease the opposition's ability to influence the proceedings (given the general dearth of game-regulating playmakers in possession). Tactically foul him early and often in the center of the park if need be, and isolate him with the “quadrilateral of death” (starting with Tévez if he withdraws every now and then, and passing through Schuster, Jansen and Di Stéfano himself if he wants to get his hands dirty). The objective is to ensure that our game-regulator has a cleaner platform and superior foothold than their game-regulator.
  • How the role suits the GOAT: healthy combination of industry and technical prowess around him, well-timed runs and movement in and out of possession, the freedom to influence the proceedings and proverbially be at the heart of the game at almost all times, the absence of some megalomaniac twerp who will challenge his authority in vain, capable deputies to lend a helping hand, and also the chance to regularly explore the inside-left segment of the pitch...
  • How the Peaches suit the GOAT (and the philosophy at large):

DEFENSE

Andoni Zubizarreta:
as the goalkeeper of the Dream Team at Cruyff's Barcelona, Zubizarreta was technically accomplished, a forward-thinking organizer, adept at rushing off his zone and playing with high defensive lines, had a keen positional sense, was stylish yet efficient as a distributor of the ball, and also a noteworthy shot-stopper. Good fit for the approach, and possesses the skill set to consistently and directly feed the ball to Di Stéfano.



David Alaba: part of several aggressive teams that employed high lines over the years with Bayern (from Heynckes' Champions League winners to Flick's Champions League winners), one of the best ball-playing defenders of his generation, an intelligent presser and counter-presser, proficient at effortlessly transitioning from defense to attack, could shunt up and down the flank but also tuck in if need be. Good fit for the approach; and wrt. Di Stéfano, Alaba could stretch the field on the left, provide industry and movement and guile, and also link up at the edge of the inside-left zone of midfield.

Ruud Krol: the quintessential totaalvoetbal defender, utterly complete in a myriad aspects. Intuitive strategist and very active off the ball, very smooth on the ball, above-average recovery speed and speed in general, comfortable in wider areas, and possessed a sixth-sense for danger. Good fit for the approach, matches the totaalvoetballing principles of the GOAT (who was arguably the most complete footballer of them all) and can also use his passing range to bring Di Stéfano into the game.

To get a sense for how good he was as a central defender, Krol won the Guerin d'Oro for Player of the Year, had a more impressive performance index than the likes of Scirea and was rated as the best foreign player in Serie A from 1980 to 1982:



Virgil van Dijk:

The complete package, so to speak — one of the landmarks of defending at the peak of his powers. van Dijk is peculiar in the sense that he has next to no discernable weaknesses — simultaneously a rugged, immovable rock from a purely defensive standpoint and a cultured ball-player for possession oriented teams, excellent at anticipating and diagnosing situations before they develop but also possessing the explosiveness to make split-second interventions if he has to, wins the vast majority of aerial duels but also imperious on the ground, spectacular at manning islands of spaces on his own (centrally or through half spaces) but effective when asked to defend compactly in numbers, and rarely caught out position because of his footballing IQ. One of the most influential players for his side during set-pieces to boot (aided by athleticism and massive 6'5" frame), and has an keen sense for resorting to tactical fouls when his team is under tremendous pressure. Perfect central defender for this scheme, in our opinion; and his defensive nous, passing ability and mentality will be appreciated by a savant in Di Stéfano.

Sandy Jardine: Mr. Consistent for most of his career...capable in all phases of the game; a tenacious fullback who boasted good technical skills, pace in offensive and defensive transitions, stamina to go up-and-down and present himself as an option for the ball, and the discipline to always mind his positional duties. The fact that McGrain was often moved to the left for Scotland does say a thing or two about Jardine's performances back in the day. Good fit for the approach, should offer himself as a a receiving option out wide (when Di Stéfano targets that part of the pitch) and could also ping the ball to the main man from advantageous positions.


MIDFIELD

Wim Jansen:
a no-nonsense, energetic, selfless, combative and versatile player who could operate as a defensive midfielder, defensive box-to-box midfielder, fullback or even central defender on occasion. Good fit for the approach because the famous organization and press of the Dutch national team was predicated on his characteristics as a tackler and stabilizer in midfield, along with his tactical intelligence and nose for covering spaces; and well suited to an archetypal water-carrier role in service of the leading light, Di Stéfano.



Bernd Schuster: a spielmacher with a wide range of stand-out qualities. Exquisite dribbler, innovative passer in short, medium and long ranges, dynamic in and out of possession, aggressive in the tackle, scored a lot of goals over the course of his career, and athletically a force of nature who could forcefully traverse vast spaces. Good fit for the approach; and also, he forged a short-lived but wonderful alliance with Maradona at Barcelona, which should suit Di Stéfano — with Schuster being his trusted partner, buzzing in the vicinity...sometimes alongside and sometimes behind or ahead (the Blonde Engel to go with the Blond Arrow).



ATTACK

Paul van Himst:
an international debutant in 1960 at the age of 17, the precocious Paul van Himst combined mesmerizing technical ability with such deadly finishing that he soon earned the nickname ‘the White Pele’. The four-time Belgian Footballer of the Year racked up goals with startling regularity — averaging better than a goal every other game for a total of almost 300 at club level, and 30 from 81 appearances at international boot. Plus, he was effortlessly versatile, a determined worker and a consummate team-player; those qualities make him a good fit for the approach and a trusted ally for Di Stéfano as he takes on the opposition scourge...



Jupp Heynckes: in his footballing days, Heynckes struck a telepathic understand with the fabled controller, Günter Netzer. A wing forward by nature, he made significant contributions during the build-up stages, was a willing and tireless runner both on and off the ball, possessed an excellent turn of pace and rhythm and was a threat in the air, and had a memorable 3 year peak where he plundered 129 goals in 139 matches at club level for a goals-per-game ratio of 0.93. Good fit for the approach, and also a smashing fit with Di Stéfano given his movement, industriousness, tactical foresight and eye for goal.

As a player, Heynckes was a ruthless goalscorer who helped drive Gladbach to their most successful era. On the field, his once wavy hair danced as part of a deceptively powerful body that bagged roughly 0.7 goals per match over the course of 308 games. It’s a phenomenal record split between two spells from 1963 to 1978.


Carlos Tévez: an irrepressible force of nature whose infectious work rate spread throughout the team. A multi-faceted center forward, Tévez could function as the point of attack or in a twin-pronged strike force, and is one of the absolute best fits for the approach as he had an incredible drive to win and worked his bollocks off and even engaged in a fair bit of shithousery, offered plenty of verve up front, brought deeper players into the game and scored with aplomb (300+ career goals). Terrific fit with Di Stéfano as the latter would appreciate Tévez's footballing ability, movement, selflessness and workmanlike attitude and appetite for loose balls in his vicinity, tireless pressing capabilities and unflinching Argentinian “grinta”.

He scurries like a frenzied animal, like a pit bull chasing a rabbit; you can almost hear him panting through the television cameras. He plays with the furious intensity of a desperate man, in love with the fight, revelling in the trauma of the athlete. He runs and runs until his lungs scream in pain. Their howls are met and embraced by the writhing squalls of the crowd, who love him. For now, they thank G** that El Apache is their’s.
And finally, a bit on our lord and savior...

"Alfredo Di Stéfano was the greatest footballer of all time. He was, simultaneously, the anchor in defence, the playmaker in midfield, and the most dangerous marksman in attack."
Helenio Herrera
"I can say that Maradona could be worse than Pelé. But I emphasize Di Stéfano was better".
Diego Maradona
"The greatness of Di Stéfano was that, with him in your side, you had two players in every position."
Miguel Muñoz
No other player so effectively combined individual expertise with an all-embracing ability to organize a team to play to his command. He was "total soccer" personified before the term had been invented. Di Stéfano remains to many of us the Greatest Footballer of All Time."
Keir Radnedg
Ronaldo is playing extremely well at the moment, but it will be years before he reaches the level of a Pelé or Di Stéfano."
Johan Cruyff
 

General_Elegancia

Chillin' with the Dugongs
Joined
Jun 27, 2021
Messages
2,072
Location
Bangkok, Thailand
Supports
Liverpool, AC Milan
It's very late at night in my homeland, so before I sleep I will show some information about Van Himst.

Paul Van Himst



He was a child prodigy, he made his debut for his club at only the age of 16 and he was selected for Belgium's National Team at 17 years old. His first match in the international game was against a very strong Sweden, who was a runner-up in World Cup 1958. He was an almost complete attacker with excellent technique, great passing skill, creativity, and goalscoring instinct. Unfortunately, his full matches in his club career are hard to find, since he had played only in Belgium and his peak belonged in the 1960s to early 1970s. Technology wasn't the same and as much as convenient as today, since that time his footages were almost 100 percent in Black and White. His highlight performance was against Real Madrid in 1962/1963. Young Van Himst performed superbly and scored against a very strong Real Madrid that had Di Stefano, Puskas, Gento, Santamaria, Amancio and Zoco. Anderchelt threw Real Madrid out of the European Cup but they lost against FC Dundee. During the 1960s( probably since 1964), he hit his peak performance and he showed the world how great he was, he won a lot of trophies in Belgium especially league trophies and the Belgian Cup, and had a lot of great performances against excellent teams like Real Madrid, Manchester United, Bologna, Koln and Sporting Lisbon. He suffered a mental breakdown after losing to Arsenal in 1970 final and probably losing in the first round of the 1970 World Cup.


He played 83 games for Belgium and scored 30 goals for the national team. He played in only one world cup(1970) and one Euro (1972). His best performance was during the Euro 1972, where his team gained 3rd place in that tournament. He ended his career for Belgium in 1974 and then he retired from football as a player in 1977. During his career, he gained a lot of accolades and trophies both personal and team.

For his positioning as rw in this game, I will tell you later why we decide to play him as rw. I've watched and I've thought that he can offer a different and creative thing positively.

Accolades
Player[edit]
Anderlecht[3][4]

International

Individual

Manager[edit]
Anderlecht[3]

Individual

Van Himst's performances



 
Last edited:

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Close, but Himannv wins this for me. Tough for me personally to vote against a Di Stefano team but both team really needed to upgrade the fullbacks from R1 to take the teams to next level. Obviously only one of the teams did that and was good enough to earn my vote.
 

Jim Beam

Gets aroused by men in low socks
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
13,076
Location
All over the place
For his positioning as rw in this game, I will tell you later why we decide to play him as rw. I've watched and I've thought that he can offer a different and creative thing positively.
Yeah, would like to hear more about it. Was impressed with him as a 12th pick and thought you are gonna play him in the first round. But, looking at some clips (against West Germany for example) he seemed like he loved to drop deeper and link up the play which at first doesn't seem like the most perfect fit with Di Stefano.

So, him moving to RW seems a better choice, but didn't saw much evidence of him playing that role and he doesn't seem rapid or too direct (this is based on few match compilations), more like a Harry Kane type of player.
 

General_Elegancia

Chillin' with the Dugongs
Joined
Jun 27, 2021
Messages
2,072
Location
Bangkok, Thailand
Supports
Liverpool, AC Milan
Yeah, would like to hear more about it. Was impressed with him as a 12th pick and thought you are gonna play him in the first round. But, looking at some clips (against West Germany for example) he seemed like he loved to drop deeper and link up the play which at first doesn't seem like the most perfect fit with Di Stefano.

So, him moving to RW seems a better choice, but didn't saw much evidence of him playing that role and he doesn't seem rapid or too direct (this is based on few match compilations), more like a Harry Kane type of player.
Have time to respond after I've finished hard work today, I'm tired as feck. Sorry @Himannv for not contributing anything due to works

Yeah, Van Himst loved to drop deeper and link up play with his teammates and that's one of the reasons I don't want him to play as false9/cf, since he will have potentially to overlap with Di Stefano's area. From what I've seen him he was more of a second striker or striker who tended to drop deep and drifted wide well on both sides(left and right). He played in the wide areas( both left and right) really well and he probably used his weaker foot at an acceptable level. He was deployed mostly in 4-4-2 as a secondary striker, who was a central focus of his team's attacking phase.

In modern games, 4-3-3 is used by almost every top team on this planet. There are not so many top teams that used 4-4-2. So, in this era, IMO, he could be used in both wing forwards(left and right),false9 or Benzema's type of striker. He was rapid enough to play a wing-forward role, could play in wide areas comfortably, had great dribbling skills, a great football brain, and had great eyes for scoring goals. That's why we think he can be used at wing forward, who has the freedom to cut inside and do both roles as a creative force and goalscorer in the penalty box. We think he will do fine.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,970
Well, shit. I think that's my last attempt at building a Beckenbauer team. It's just never worked out or perhaps I'm just doing an awful job of selling it.

Anyway, well-played @General_Elegancia and @Invictus - hope you guys do well for the rest of the draft.
I really liked the side. I think though you could have done with more of a passer alongside Der Kaiser and a more creative second-striker than Keegan. This would have lifted the creative burden a bit from Der Kaiser making you less predictable. I would also note however 442's rarely get than much love around here.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,333
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Well, shit. I think that's my last attempt at building a Beckenbauer team. It's just never worked out or perhaps I'm just doing an awful job of selling it.

Anyway, well-played @General_Elegancia and @Invictus - hope you guys do well for the rest of the draft.
Liked his partnership with Mackay in a 4-4-2, spot on for me.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Well, shit. I think that's my last attempt at building a Beckenbauer team. It's just never worked out or perhaps I'm just doing an awful job of selling it.

Anyway, well-played @General_Elegancia and @Invictus - hope you guys do well for the rest of the draft.
It's always tough to beat a good team featuring the unquestionable goat in sane minds.
 

Himannv

Full Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Messages
5,794
Location
Somewhere in the draft forum
I really liked the side. I think though you could have done with more of a passer alongside Der Kaiser and a more creative second-striker than Keegan. This would have lifted the creative burden a bit from Der Kaiser making you less predictable. I would also note however 442's rarely get than much love around here.
I feel Mackay is a good passer and, in general, is a very complimentary partner for Beckenbauer. He does the defensive work and covers for Backenbauer if he's attacking, and he's better than people think with the ball at his feet so he can create as well. I also think Keegan is a great fit in a front two personally and having someone who drops deeper to create kind of defeats the purpose.

Having said that, this was meant to be a Beckenbauer team and was built around him so your argument that it's predictable has merit but I think that will be the case when you build around a player anyway.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,970
I feel Mackay is a good passer and, in general, is a very complimentary partner for Beckenbauer. He does the defensive work and covers for Backenbauer if he's attacking, and he's better than people think with the ball at his feet so he can create as well. I also think Keegan is a great fit in a front two personally and having someone who drops deeper to create kind of defeats the purpose.

Having said that, this was meant to be a Beckenbauer team and was built around him so your argument that it's predictable has merit but I think that will be the case when you build around a player anyway.
I think then more focus on the creativity of Mackay (he didn't seem that creative to me however when I saw him) and Keegan would have helped you. I don't think that building around a player means they have to be the main hub of creativity. Der Kaiser dovetailed very nicely with Netzer in 72. Netzer did not harm Der Kaiser's remit in the game. Also IIRC harms' all-time build around Maradona also contained Bernd Schuster. I reckon in an all-time XI you could have peak Pele and peak Schweinsteiger in for Mackay and Keegan and it would not reduce Der Kaiser's general influence.