MPs call for Uber to be stripped of its London licence

shamans

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My mum would fail most written English tests, even though she can speak English very well, albeit a slight accent, she's fully immersed into British society also and she's been here for over 25 years.
She just didn't go to school past 16, and didn't have to learn English until she was in her mid 30's.

Let's stop the arrogant stigma that language = assimilation, because it doesn't.

Written proficiency in English isn't sufficient to drive a car, nor does it indicate assimilation into society.
I don't get why, in an attempt to counter one extreme view, the liberal view is always so extreme. Language is an essential part of culture. It 100% has an impact on assimilation. It is NOT the only thing. Writing is also totally separate as a lot of locals can't write as well.

Also, using a single example (my mom, my uncle, I have a friend etc etc) is not really enough to prove a point but I do know what you're meaning. Still, it is definitely not an "arrogant stigma".
 

11101

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Pretty glad they lost their licence, Taxi drivers spend thousands to become one, Taxi's are not cheap (looking at 60k ish for a mk4) and learning the Knowledge takes years and incredible skill, i was lucky enough to help train my mate (by which, sit in the car with him and testing him as we drove throughout london in our early 20 somethings) to able to reel off every single street name from point A to Point F is fascinating, not just that... they have great knowledge on the local places i.e bars/clubs/off the beaten path shops/cafes etc, i doubt your average joe of a uber driver is going to know all that.
Problem is, Google Maps knows in an instant everything your friend has ever learned, and more. All that training is unnecessary in 2019.
 

villain

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I don't get why, in an attempt to counter one extreme view, the liberal view is always so extreme. Language is an essential part of culture. It 100% has an impact on assimilation. It is NOT the only thing. Writing is also totally separate as a lot of locals can't write as well.

Also, using a single example (my mom, my uncle, I have a friend etc etc) is not really enough to prove a point but I do know what you're meaning. Still, it is definitely not an "arrogant stigma".
Not sure why you're responding to a 2 year old post, nor why you've labelled it 'liberal', and none of it - from what I can see - is actually in relation to Uber's attempt to exist in London? You seem to be talking generally about immigrants assimilating.

My point was that broken english or imperfect english shouldn't be a barrier to employment - especially if your job is to get your passenger from point A to point B. And yes people are stigmatised for their ability to speak English or if they have a strong accent whilst speaking.
By using anecdotes, I was illustrating the real life effects of people who would likely fail any form of written English exam - which was one of the requirements that TFL had before it would've granted Uber a licence (not sure if it's the same now, since I haven't kept up with this story) - but are still assimilated into English society because you don't need to be able to speak perfect English to be a part of this society.
Further to that, a written exam is an unnecessary barrier to being able to drive a taxi in 2019.
 

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https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/sep/28/uber-keeps-london-licence-risk-tfl-safety

Uber granted London licence as court rules it 'no longer poses a risk'

Uber has been granted a further 18-month licence in London after an appeal found it was a “fit and proper” company to run private hire car services.

Westminster magistrates court ruled in favour of Uber almost a year after Transport for London (TfL) refused the ride-hailing firm a licence extension over safety concerns.

The deputy chief magistrate, Tan Ikram, said he had “sufficient confidence that Uber London Ltd [ULL] no longer poses a risk to public safety … despite historical failings”, after hearing three days of arguments this month.
 

F-Red

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The right decision I think, short term review of the license to make sure they're improving.

LTDA statement is as expected.
 

NinjaFletch

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As much as Uber themselves can feck off, this sounds like good news to me. Anecdotally at least, virtually every female friend I have who lives in London has expressed how much safer they feel in an Uber than a black cab (and several have said they simply won't get in a black cab alone at night).

Hopefully now Cabbies have lost their battle to attempt to stifle competition through lobbying there'll be some reflection on why so many people feel uncomfortable using their services and a genuine attempt to improve their own failings on the exact same fronts that Uber have had their knuckles rapped over.
 

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Hopefully now Cabbies have lost their battle to attempt to stifle competition through lobbying there'll be some reflection on why so many people feel uncomfortable using their services and a genuine attempt to improve their own failings on the exact same fronts that Uber have had their knuckles rapped over.
I think that's the only angle they had to protect their pricing structure. A monopoly is never useful in an industry like this, as it stifles competition and fair pricing structure for the consumer.
 

MikeUpNorth

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The right decision. How much more am I going to have to pay for my rides now?
 

11101

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It's a good decision for the Uber drivers as well as others doing similar for the likes of Amazon. Prices might rise but there's plenty of room before they get anywhere near the extortionate black cab rates.
 

horsechoker

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It's a good decision for the Uber drivers as well as others doing similar for the likes of Amazon. Prices might rise but there's plenty of room before they get anywhere near the extortionate black cab rates.
and a lot less casual racism as well.
 

MikeUpNorth

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Presumably the ruling that drivers are classed as working "from the time they log on to the app, until they log off" has big implications. As the BBC article hints at, I guess Uber will have to limit the number of drivers that can be working at any one time to keep its wage costs manageable?

I also don't know how that works when drivers are simultaneously on Uber, Bolt, Kabbee and other alternative apps waiting for rides. They could get paid simultaneously from the different apps unless they implement some kind of exclusivity arrangement.
 

NinjaFletch

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Unsurprisingly, a bit more hesitance amongst workers in the gig economy than in the wider world.

I think those concerns are valid. Gig economy jobs can see you get some good hourly rates (I've mentioned before I worked for deliveroo during the first lockdown and it was not uncommon I could make upwards of £20+ an hour) if you treat it as a gig economy job.

Where people struggle is when they treat it as a full time job because you can have hours where you're lucky to make £2.50. But I think those riders are right, I can see this leading to mass termination of contracts, and a capping of fees at minimum wage. Overall, that's probably a net good thing, but it definitely has significant cons too.
 

11101

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Presumably the ruling that drivers are classed as working "from the time they log on to the app, until they log off" has big implications. As the BBC article hints at, I guess Uber will have to limit the number of drivers that can be working at any one time to keep its wage costs manageable?

I also don't know how that works when drivers are simultaneously on Uber, Bolt, Kabbee and other alternative apps waiting for rides. They could get paid simultaneously from the different apps unless they implement some kind of exclusivity arrangement.
They will be employees on employee contracts i.e no working for the competition. Uber will employ less drivers and less drivers means less supply and higher prices. Same for all the others, and they will be blind to each other so will have no idea of the real supply and demand. The workers don't want this, the apps don't want this, it's all backed by the black cabs because they know what it will result in.

It will see fragmentation of the market and price increases in the short term no doubt, but I hope that eventually there will be availability sharing across platforms. Singapore had for a time a system where you could see other company's cars within the Uber app.
 

Smores

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I wouldn't be surprised if they just change their model so that it's clearer they're only acting as an intermediary.

Have drivers pay subscription up front or buy each ride at a flat fee. How much further do you go before Ebay and Etsy sellers are employees?
 

DOTA

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Unsurprisingly, a bit more hesitance amongst workers in the gig economy than in the wider world.

I think those concerns are valid. Gig economy jobs can see you get some good hourly rates (I've mentioned before I worked for deliveroo during the first lockdown and it was not uncommon I could make upwards of £20+ an hour) if you treat it as a gig economy job.

Where people struggle is when they treat it as a full time job because you can have hours where you're lucky to make £2.50. But I think those riders are right, I can see this leading to mass termination of contracts, and a capping of fees at minimum wage. Overall, that's probably a net good thing, but it definitely has significant cons too.
When I was a traffic warden I had quite a few deliveroo motorcyclists tell me that getting one ticket (£35) was equivalent to what they would likely earn that day. They also had to park illegally to be able to properly do their job, so they were living in constant fear that they'd get caught.

Before anyone thinks otherwise, I did not ever give them a ticket...

It just seemed an insanely vulnerable position they were in, earning so little and with such volatility in what could happen day to day.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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It's a good decision for the Uber drivers as well as others doing similar for the likes of Amazon. Prices might rise but there's plenty of room before they get anywhere near the extortionate black cab rates.
Never understood this and feel, it's a bit of a myth. I take black cabs over Uber as I despise the company and the price difference really isn't that vast unless you're heading out of London to the sticks at midnight.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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Positive it has probably been linked in the thread previously but everyone should read the Hubert Horan series on Uber on the Naked Capitalism site.
 

11101

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Never understood this and feel, it's a bit of a myth. I take black cabs over Uber as I despise the company and the price difference really isn't that vast unless you're heading out of London to the sticks at midnight.
To be fair I don't know what they cost now, I haven't taken a black cab in years, ever since one charged me 30 quid to go half the length of Heathrow's runway and had the hump when I only had 20 quid on me. It used to be a joke how much they charged and a lot of Londoners haven't forgotten.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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To be fair I don't know what they cost now, I haven't taken a black cab in years, ever since one charged me 30 quid to go half the length of Heathrow's runway and had the hump when I only had 20 quid on me. It used to be a joke how much they charged and a lot of Londoners haven't forgotten.
Fair enough but they were able to make a living. Uber drivers went from being told they could earn £1500 per week to being told to enjoy their side hustle (change in advertising to new drivers from Uber). The low prices are subsidized by VC cash and lower "wages" for drivers.
 

NinjaFletch

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When I was a traffic warden I had quite a few deliveroo motorcyclists tell me that getting one ticket (£35) was equivalent to what they would likely earn that day. They also had to park illegally to be able to properly do their job, so they were living in constant fear that they'd get caught.

Before anyone thinks otherwise, I did not ever give them a ticket...

It just seemed an insanely vulnerable position they were in, earning so little and with such volatility in what could happen day to day.
There’s days where it can happen, but, on the whole, my knowledge of the job would lead me to believe they were exaggerating to get out of a ticket. Motorcycle/moped riders are favoured over cyclists in deliveroo’s algorithm and get preferential access to orders. Even when it’s quiet, they’ll be the ones who are busy. They have higher costs due to fuel and insurance than cyclists, so it makes sense, but I’d think it’s unlikely they were ever THAT quiet. The problem is, as you say, that they’re incentivised to park illegally, drive terribly, and generally take risks because it affects their bottom line.

And yes, the volatility point is the key one. All the risk is on the rider, and if it’s quiet there’s no safety net. When I did it, it was some extra money to cover rent in the final few days of my PhD, I could work times when I knew it was busy and not bother at other times, but even then, there was variable demand. Some people did it full time, and I have no idea how they could budget or plan, so I imagine employee status suits them a lot better. There was a day around first lockdown where I was out for about an hour and a half and had one order worth £4.30. People I spoke to had been out for the whole day and not had much more; it’s an extreme example but it is possible to have an hourly of about 43p if you’re really unlucky. Employee status will prevent that too.

There’s also a bit of nostalgia for days that aren’t going to come back anyway. A few years ago, it was not impossible that with some hard work and good fitness a cyclist could pull in around £3k a month on deliveroo. Since then, fees have been declining, the company is ‘employing’ more and more riders and there’s an ongoing race to the bottom as they work out how they can pay the least amount of money possible to get the order from A-B. Employee status is the death knell for those days and removes any chance people are going to have of making that sort of money, but it does put a bottom limit on how bad things could get, and I think that’s probably more important given how the sector is going.

Edit: Actually, I remember that in the early days Deliveroo did pay a base rate which was topped up with fees from orders and then moved everyone on to these contractor contracts so it’s not impossible they go back to that system which worked better for everyone except the company. I don’t think that’s the way the wind is blowing though.
 
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sun_tzu

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Unsurprisingly, a bit more hesitance amongst workers in the gig economy than in the wider world.

I think those concerns are valid. Gig economy jobs can see you get some good hourly rates (I've mentioned before I worked for deliveroo during the first lockdown and it was not uncommon I could make upwards of £20+ an hour) if you treat it as a gig economy job.

Where people struggle is when they treat it as a full time job because you can have hours where you're lucky to make £2.50. But I think those riders are right, I can see this leading to mass termination of contracts, and a capping of fees at minimum wage. Overall, that's probably a net good thing, but it definitely has significant cons too.
Is this retrospective - will employees now owe back taxes as well?

presumably HMRC will want backdated contributions from UBER?
 

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When I was a traffic warden I had quite a few deliveroo motorcyclists tell me that getting one ticket (£35) was equivalent to what they would likely earn that day. They also had to park illegally to be able to properly do their job, so they were living in constant fear that they'd get caught.

Before anyone thinks otherwise, I did not ever give them a ticket...

It just seemed an insanely vulnerable position they were in, earning so little and with such volatility in what could happen day to day.

You were a traffic warden? :lol: Did I know this already?

Christ, I bet you got sacked for only giving tickets to toffs.
 

DOTA

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You were a traffic warden? :lol: Did I know this already?

Christ, I bet you got sacked for only giving tickets to toffs.
No BMW on double yellows missed my attention, I assure you.
 

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Normal minicab offices will now make a comeback then? Uber as is will cease to exist as will be totally uncompetitive?

Haven't read the ruling , where is the legal line between calling a mini cab office to book a mini cab using and App on your phone?

Mini cab drivers have always been self employed? What I've never really understood is why there isn't an open, driver owned mini cab app. The technology is really simple, just need license Google maps and charge per mile or minute.
 

DOTA

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Did you ever get any dates from it? Great icebreaker.
Was in a relationship throughout but I'm somewhat sceptical that 'women love a guy in uniform' applies to folks whose authority is limited to making estate agents move 30 yards down the road.
 

Rado_N

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and a lot less casual racism as well.
The worst casual racism I ever had from a driver was in an Uber.

Literally as we got in the car he opened with “bet you couldn’t believe it when it said your drivers name wasn’t Mohammed”, and it only got worse from there.

It’s mad how these cnuts see white faces and just assume everyone thinks like they do.
 

horsechoker

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The worst casual racism I ever had from a driver was in an Uber.

Literally as we got in the car he opened with “bet you couldn’t believe it when it said your drivers name wasn’t Mohammed”, and it only got worse from there.

It’s mad how these cnuts see white faces and just assume everyone thinks like they do.
I'm surprised, I thought the rating system would stamp that out but some people are idiots and they are often bigots.

I've had a number of racist drivers and they weren't only white. I've even had racist drivers from India/Pakistan who couldn't have lived in the UK for a long time.
 

Rado_N

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I'm surprised, I thought the rating system would stamp that out but some people are idiots and they are often bigots.

I've had a number of racist drivers and they weren't only white. I've even had racist drivers from India/Pakistan who couldn't have lived in the UK for a long time.
He got a single star from me that’s for sure. I don’t think you can give zero? Man I’ve not used Uber for so long, bloody pandemic.