Mufc coaching staff and game management

[Ludens the Red]

Right, so the season is done and I think this needs to be addressed because it’s been really bad all season. Lo and behold in our final game of the season it happens in such an embarrassing way. It would be unfair to attribute this just to Ole. The whole point of Phelan, Carrick and McKenna is to assist with this and advise Ole.

But what the feck is going on... I can count at least ten games this season where we’ve either been losing control of a game, getting run ragged, certain players are looking leggy or just having complete stinkers and nothing is done to change it.
Nobody on our bench can work it out yet you’ve got hundreds of us whining in the match day thread pointing the problems out and then finally about twenty mins later (and by that time too late) do our coaching staff make the required changes.

Tonight, Rashford having a complete stinker. Fred and Williams tiring... but nothing is done until the 87th minute.
West Ham and Southampton games too. We’ve been able to make five subs yet it has weirdly made our coaching staff even worse at making required changes during a game.

I get our bench isn’t great but If the players who are starting are having complete mares or are completely shattered whats the point leaving them on.

There’s no point signing Sancho, having great team spirit, developing young players, getting the best out of certain players if you ruin it all by being so incompetent at managing a game of football. It’s such a massive factor. It’s literally the difference between being a team who finish 3rd and lose lots of semis to actually challenging for titles, getting to finals and winning cups. It’s been a year lads, sort it out!

 

[Bojan11]

Mate, there’s about 5 threads discussing the same stuff about game management. Did we really need another one?

 

[ivaldo]

We've got no quality on the bench. You don't change the course of a game by bringing James and Lingard on. If we had Mahrez, the two Silva's and Foden on the bench, for example, then we wouldn't face issues with fitness or an inability to impact a game from the sidelines.

If we sign Sancho, we would be bringing on Greenwood to chase the game, instead of bleedin' Fosu-Mensah. What this last month has demonstrated is an absolute lack in depth.

 

[GDaly95]

We've got no quality on the bench. You don't change the course of a game by bringing James and Lingard on. If we had Mahrez, the two Silva's and Foden on the bench, for example, then we wouldn't face issues with fitness or an inability to impact a game from the sidelines.

If we sign Sancho, we would be bringing on Greenwood to chase the game, instead of bleedin' Fosu-Mensah. What this last month has demonstrated is an absolute lack in depth.

This.

Ole exhausted these players and people can complain about it all they want, but if he didn't then we wouldn't be playing CL football next season.

 

[PoTMS]

Bullshit. A fit reserve player with fresh legs is better than a knackered first XI player. Putting on our backup players for 5 min cameos at the end of games and expecting them to perform is ridiculous. Put them on sooner and for players who are woefully out of form, see Rashford.

 

[SAFMUTD]

We've got no quality on the bench. You don't change the course of a game by bringing James and Lingard on. If we had Mahrez, the two Silva's and Foden on the bench, for example, then we wouldn't face issues with fitness or an inability to impact a game from the sidelines.

If we sign Sancho, we would be bringing on Greenwood to chase the game, instead of bleedin' Fosu-Mensah. What this last month has demonstrated is an absolute lack in depth.

Thats a good excuse if we were playing a semi in the UCL, we were playing against freaking Sevilla. How many of their players would start for us? how many of their bench would you take?

It seems we need a 23 player squad full of world class players otherwise Ole cant be blamed for shit.

 

[Leftback99]

We've got no quality on the bench. You don't change the course of a game by bringing James and Lingard on. If we had Mahrez, the two Silva's and Foden on the bench, for example, then we wouldn't face issues with fitness or an inability to impact a game from the sidelines.

If we sign Sancho, we would be bringing on Greenwood to chase the game, instead of bleedin' Fosu-Mensah. What this last month has demonstrated is an absolute lack in depth.

Exactly. Everyone making a big deal about 'game management' tonight basically because we didn't throw Ighalo on sooner for no reason other than making a change.

 

[rooneyaldo]

Ole‘a good side and bad side can be shown via Greenwood. The fact that Ole picked him and made him a starter and helping him develop is Ole’s good side. Not every manager would have trusted an 18 year old. However his bad side is the tactical set up with Greenwood. We should be creating situations where he get opportunities for Mason to have a shot on goal. But more often then not we see Mason wide right or with his back to goal. Tactical set up should be done such that we make moves to make greenwood take a shot but that barely happens.

 

[ivaldo]

Thats a good excuse if we were playing a semi in the UCL, we were playing against freaking Sevilla. How many of their players would start for us? how many of their bench would you take?

It seems we need a 23 player squad full of world class players otherwise Ole cant be blamed for shit.

We battered them for the vast majority of the game. It certainly wasn't managements fault that lead to us to bring hit and run. If the roles were reserved we would be discussing how incredibly lucky we weren't not to be hammered by 5 or 6 and you know it. But yeah. It's Oles fault.

 

[ivaldo]

Ole‘a good side and bad side can be shown via Greenwood. The fact that Ole picked him and made him a starter and helping him develop is Ole’s good side. Not every manager would have trusted an 18 year old. However his bad side is the tactical set up with Greenwood. We should be creating situations where he get opportunities for Mason to have a shot on goal. But more often then not we see Mason wide right or with his back to goal. Tactical set up should be done such that we make moves to make greenwood take a shot but that barely happens.

Greenwood had several chances on goal.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Thats a good excuse if we were playing a semi in the UCL, we were playing against freaking Sevilla. How many of their players would start for us? how many of their bench would you take?

It seems we need a 23 player squad full of world class players otherwise Ole cant be blamed for shit.

seville are good. same points at atheli, 1 goal conceded in previous 8 games, absolute cup specialists. doesn't fit some narratives but seville are good

 

[Ludens the Red]

Bullshit. A fit reserve player with fresh legs is better than a knackered first XI player. Putting on our backup players for 5 min cameos at the end of games and expecting them to perform is ridiculous. Put them on sooner and for players who are woefully out of form, see Rashford.

Yeah exactly. Bruno, Rashford, Williams, have all had a number of games since post lockdown where they were either gassed out or effectively playing for the opposition cos they were so bad.
James, Matic, McTominay and Ighalo have proven themselves to be useful at points this season. Mata can still pick a pass. This whole thing of pretending as if everyone on our bench is Sunday league level and so we have no choice in making changes is a nonsense. And what’s the point bringing them on in the 87th minute .

 

[SAFMUTD]

We battered them for the vast majority of the game. It certainly wasn't managements fault that lead to us to bring hit and run. If the roles were reserved we would be discussing how incredibly lucky we weren't not to be hammered by 5 or 6 and you know it. But yeah. It's Oles fault.

I agree in a "normal" game we should have scored at least 2 more goals, but the team is just a reflect of Ole. Its no coincidence we've been struggling to score lately, we've been saved by penalties but since the game against Kopenhavn we were terrible at taking chances. The truth is performances have been going down for some time now, we havent played well since the game against Bournemouth, that was 5 weeks ago.

 

[SAFMUTD]

seville are good. same points at atheli, 1 goal conceded in previous 8 games, absolute cup specialists. doesn't fit some narratives but seville are good

Yes, they're not a low table team but do you agree they play better than the sum of their parts? look at their squad and they dont have a single stand out player. Besides Reguilon who had a great season I dont think any other player would start at our team, thats merit of the manager.

I think we can, and should, play better with the players we have. I see coaching problems, I know I have said this time and time again but I see no system being implemented. We change one single player from the starting XI and we suffer like hell.

 

[sammsky1]

Bullshit. A fit reserve player with fresh legs is better than a knackered first XI player. Putting on our backup players for 5 min cameos at the end of games and expecting them to perform is ridiculous. Put them on sooner and for players who are woefully out of form, see Rashford.

Am a big Ole fan, but I totally agree with this. I also had massive problems with his stubbornness not to rotate guys like Fred, McT and Mata in the post lockdown run, which would have enabled him to play a better team in FA cup semi final.

 

[ivaldo]

I agree in a "normal" game we should have scored at least 2 more goals, but the team is just a reflect of Ole. Its no coincidence we've been struggling to score lately, we've been saved by penalties but since the game against Kopenhavn we were terrible at taking chances. The truth is performances have been going down for some time now, we havent played well since the game against Bournemouth, that was 5 weeks ago.

What does that mean? How does our forward players, who have proven previously they have an eye for goal, missing chance after chance boil down to Ole being at fault? Expand on that for me. Because you and yours keep saying it's Oles fault, get we get precious little explanation.

That was our 61st game of the season by the way, that lasted over 370 days, in the most punishing league in the world. We've had long term injuries to key players, while having a shallow squad. In what world do we NOT struggle towards the end of that?

 

[SAFMUTD]

What does that mean? How does our forward players, who have proven previously they have an eye for goal, missing chance after chance boil down to Ole being at fault? Expand on that for me. Because you and yours keep saying it's Oles fault, get we get precious little explanation.

That was our 61st game of the season by the way, that lasted over 370 days, in the most punishing league in the world. We've had long term injuries to key players, while having a shallow squad. In what world do we NOT struggle towards the end of that?

You are mixing issues here, are you seriously going to use the tired excuse? I cant say I saw our players tired today nor we have any injured player besides Shaw.

Now regarding it being Ole's fault is the same as is his fault those mistake in defence, the coach takes the blame for all the good and bad things on the team. You can't say is not his fault when we loose but praise him on other games when players scored. It doesnt work that way, and as I said this is not a new one for us, we had plenty of chances against Kopenhavn which we failed to convert, and struggle to score in every single match since the match against Chelsea in the FA cup.

 

[ivaldo]

You are mixing issues here, are you seriously going to use the tired excuse? I cant say I saw our players tired today nor we have any injured player besides Shaw.

Now regarding it being Ole's fault is the same as is his fault those mistake in defence, the coach takes the blame for all the good and bad things on the team. You can't say is not his fault when we loose but praise him on other games when players scored. It doesnt work that way, and as I said this is not a new one for us, we had plenty of chances against Kopenhavn which we failed to convert, and struggle to score in every single match since the match against Chelsea in the FA cup.

So you refer to previous performances but I can't? The stats don't lie. Our key players have either played huge amounts of football or been suffered serious injuries. The BT commentary team mentioned that Maguire had played more first team minutes than any outfield player in top flight football.

So nothing to expand on it 'being Ole's fault'. Come on. With Ole being so poor this should be easy.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Ever consider Phelan, Carrick, Mckenna know more about football than you?

Embarrassing thread.

 

[SAFMUTD]

So you refer to previous performances but I can't? The stats don't lie. Our key players have either played huge amounts of football or been suffered serious injuries. The BT commentary team mentioned that Maguire had played more first team minutes than any outfield player in top flight football.

So nothing to expand on it 'being Ole's fault'. Come on. With Ole being so poor this should be easy.

Any player has played huge amounts of football by this time of the season, if any player is overplayed then its Ole's fault for not rotating enough. Its not like Sevilla didnt played a lot whole games just like us this year. Which serious injuries are you talking about? Pogba and Rashford havent been injured for months, you cant just say we are afected because they got injured 6-8 months ago.

Its Ole's fault simply because we have a much better squad than the results he's given, specially at this cup. We played against very poor opposition the whole tournament, our first test was against Sevilla and we failed.

Dont you agree? tell me one team we faced from the europa league that we shouldnt have easily beat. We got to the semifinals because it was as easy as it could get, playing against freaking Brugges, LASK and Kopenhavn, FFS and some posters here are defending us going into the semifinals as a great achievent. We didnt faced any of the other good teams until now, and when we did we got kicked out.

 

[ivaldo]

Any player has played huge amounts of football by this time of the season, if any player is overplayed then its Ole's fault for not rotating enough. Its not like Sevilla didnt played a lot whole games just like us this year. Which serious injuries are you talking about? Pogba and Rashford havent been injured for months, you cant just say we are afected because they got injured 6-8 months ago.

Its Ole's fault simply because we have a much better squad than the results he's given, specially at this cup. We played against very poor opposition the whole tournament, our first test was against Sevilla and we failed.

Dont you agree? tell me one team we faced from the europa league that we shouldnt have easily beat. We got to the semifinals because it was as easy as it could get, playing against freaking Brugges, LASK and Kopenhavn, FFS and some posters here are defending us going into the semifinals as a great achievent. We didnt faced any of the other good teams until now, and when we did we got kicked out.

No, the vast majority of footballers have not played this many games. Rotating with what? The squad isn't good enough. There's a huge dip in quality from our starting XI to our squads. Do you genuinely not see that?

This is Ole's first full season. You talk as if he has been in charge so long he should've solved all our issues. Yes, Pogba, Rashford and Shaw. it massively effected our early season. We then didn't play football for nearly 5 months. Expecting a player to come back into the team with no match fitness and not feel the affect of what was the most congested fixture list of any team in the league is ignoring context.

So now you want to talk about the season as a whole again? Either the injuries we've had throughout the season matter or you don't talk about it at all.

We shouldn't have easily beat Sevilla. But we did utterly outclass them. Why are you bringing that up to me? I haven't said it.

Still waiting for you to expand on it by the way. Haven't see a jot of substance yet.

 

[SAFMUTD]

No, the vast majority of footballers have not played this many games. Rotating with what? The squad isn't good enough. There's a huge dip in quality from our starting XI to our squads. Do you genuinely not see that?

This is Ole's first full season. You talk as if he has been in charge so long he should've solved all our issues. Yes, Pogba, Rashford and Shaw. it massively effected our early season. We then didn't play football for nearly 5 months. Expecting a player to come back into the team with no match fitness and not feel the affect of what was the most congested fixture list of any team in the league is ignoring context.

So now you want to talk about the season as a whole again? Either the injuries we've had throughout the season matter or you don't talk about it at all.

We shouldn't have easily beat Sevilla. But we did utterly outclass them. Why are you bringing that up to me? I haven't said it.

Still waiting for you to expand on it by the way. Haven't see a jot of substance yet.

How do you say sevilla havent played that many games when they have literally played as much games as us? Besides maybe the league cup which they dont have in Spain. Rotating with what? We have a 23 player squad, I agree most of them have not the neccesary quality to be starting games but that doesnt mean Ole should just play the same 13-14 players time and time again, its his job to work it around.

It may be because English is not my first language but Im kind of lost on your arguments, but again what the heck does it matter if Pogba and Rashford were injured months ago when they been consistently playing for the last 2 months?

How can you say we utterly outclassed them when we lost? Besides the initial 15 minutes of the second half the match was pretty even, I dont think much neutral fans would agree with us utterly outclassing Sevilla today.

All Im saying is this team is not playing to their full potential, and thats on Ole. If you really think Ole has done an amazing job with the squad you must be from the one who think this squad need 7-8 new players to challenge for titles.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Ever consider Phelan, Carrick, Mckenna know more about football than you?

Embarrassing thread.

Yeah they're immune to poor decisions or making mistakes.

I think we should just sit back and watch the games. No point in these discussions.

 

[The United]

We've got no quality on the bench. You don't change the course of a game by bringing James and Lingard on. If we had Mahrez, the two Silva's and Foden on the bench, for example, then we wouldn't face issues with fitness or an inability to impact a game from the sidelines.

If we sign Sancho, we would be bringing on Greenwood to chase the game, instead of bleedin' Fosu-Mensah. What this last month has demonstrated is an absolute lack in depth.

That's exactly what it is. We have our best XI out and was playing well enough to win a game.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Yeah they're immune to poor decisions or making mistakes.

I think we should just sit back and watch the games. No point in these discussions.

It"s idiotic to suggest 'nobody on the bench can see the problems redcafe posters can'.

I'm all for discussion - but don't need to entertain someone running down the entire coaching staff after one unfortunate result.

Ultimately - we should have been 4-1 up in the second half. Poor finishing isn't a coaching error.
One or two of those chances get taken and people aren't on here claiming all our coaches know feck all.

 

[Foxbatt]

That's exactly what it is. We have our best XI out and was playing well enough to win a game.

Well we didn't. It is his job to find a another way to get level. If he did bring in fresh legs and changed the tactics and formations and if we still missed sitters then you can say it is not his fault. But he never brings in changes when it is needed. It is bleedin obvious that players like Rashford was dead on their feet and also it needed a different way to play. A good coach normally would win matches when he has better players. He may lose sometimes and it is his fault. Now no one can say that Seville had better players than us. They had Jesus Navas at right back and Rashford could not beat him. I do not think Rashford would have beaten Young if we had played against Inter.
Other teams normally play to a pattern and that is why they know where their team mates are. We never seem to do so and it is always up to individual brilliance to win our matches. When was the last time we scored from a corner? Why is it always directly on the head of Maguire? Why does not vary with the corners? I personally think he has not much clue about game management.
Some people talk about Phelan and Carrick knowing about football more than everyone at CAF. It may be so they have coaching badges etc but seeing what is going on during a game is something inherent. There are lots of people who do not play top level football but who can see it ahead. They simply do not have the technical ability to play.
Anyone can see that our game management is extremely poor.

 

[Denis79]

I have been critical of Ole at times but tonight wasn't on him. We created a lot of chances but couldn't finish them off. Combine that with awful performances from AWB and Lindelof lost us the game. Terrible defending on both Sevillas goals.

 

[Green_Red]

We've got no quality on the bench. You don't change the course of a game by bringing James and Lingard on. If we had Mahrez, the two Silva's and Foden on the bench, for example, then we wouldn't face issues with fitness or an inability to impact a game from the sidelines.

If we sign Sancho, we would be bringing on Greenwood to chase the game, instead of bleedin' Fosu-Mensah. What this last month has demonstrated is an absolute lack in depth.

There's really no point trying to point this out to these tools any more man, they don't seem to get it. If Ole had made those subs earlier theyd be crying "why did he bring them on theyre shite, he hasn't a clue!", or "why hasn't he signed a player for that position yet, we've needed that player for 5 years!".

 

[elmo]

Thats a good excuse if we were playing a semi in the UCL, we were playing against freaking Sevilla. How many of their players would start for us? how many of their bench would you take?

It seems we need a 23 player squad full of world class players otherwise Ole cant be blamed for shit.

That's everyone's excuse against West Ham anyway and Sevilla is miles better than them.

 

[SteveW]

Not sure what Ole was supposed to do here. He set up the team well and we outplayed Sevilla and created lots of chances to win. Other than become 15 years younger and put himself on to finish the chances what was he supposed to do?

Sevilla hung on by a thread all game and got lucky. That's all there is to it.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Bullshit. A fit reserve player with fresh legs is better than a knackered first XI player. Putting on our backup players for 5 min cameos at the end of games and expecting them to perform is ridiculous. Put them on sooner and for players who are woefully out of form, see Rashford.

If you are trying to tell me a fit Lingard is better than an exhausted Bruno, you’re completely delusional

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Not sure what Ole was supposed to do here. He set up the team well and we outplayed Sevilla and created lots of chances to win. Other than become 15 years younger and put himself on to finish the chances what was he supposed to do?

Sevilla hung on by a thread all game and got lucky. That's all there is to it.

Pretty much it. Really gets old how every game has to mean some grand change or issue that needs adressing. I though we played better than we had in about a month, yet we got really unlucky. Happens. Everyone knows we need depth, our defense is a bit suspect, and Rashford needs some completion. This game didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know except that Fred behind Bruno and Pogba can work just as well in games where we need another mobile CM

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Thats a good excuse if we were playing a semi in the UCL, we were playing against freaking Sevilla. How many of their players would start for us? how many of their bench would you take?

It seems we need a 23 player squad full of world class players otherwise Ole cant be blamed for shit.

Sevilla who finished 4th in La Liga you mean?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Yeah exactly. Bruno, Rashford, Williams, have all had a number of games since post lockdown where they were either gassed out or effectively playing for the opposition cos they were so bad.
James, Matic, McTominay and Ighalo have proven themselves to be useful at points this season. Mata can still pick a pass. This whole thing of pretending as if everyone on our bench is Sunday league level and so we have no choice in making changes is a nonsense. And what’s the point bringing them on in the 87th minute .

Nope. There is a massive drop in quality between our first team and our bench.

Shaw to Williams is prime example. Bruno to Lingard another!

 

[The United]

Well we didn't. It is his job to find a another way to get level. If he did bring in fresh legs and changed the tactics and formations and if we still missed sitters then you can say it is not his fault. But he never brings in changes when it is needed. It is bleedin obvious that players like Rashford was dead on their feet and also it needed a different way to play. A good coach normally would win matches when he has better players. He may lose sometimes and it is his fault. Now no one can say that Seville had better players than us. They had Jesus Navas at right back and Rashford could not beat him. I do not think Rashford would have beaten Young if we had played against Inter.
Other teams normally play to a pattern and that is why they know where their team mates are. We never seem to do so and it is always up to individual brilliance to win our matches. When was the last time we scored from a corner? Why is it always directly on the head of Maguire? Why does not vary with the corners? I personally think he has not much clue about game management.
Some people talk about Phelan and Carrick knowing about football more than everyone at CAF. It may be so they have coaching badges etc but seeing what is going on during a game is something inherent. There are lots of people who do not play top level football but who can see it ahead. They simply do not have the technical ability to play.
Anyone can see that our game management is extremely poor.

Patterns? For you, patterns means players know where they are and where other players are? We don't have it? Think really hard about it.

Individual brilliance? So, having ability to shoot, pass, finish, dribble, tackle, head the ball, catch the ball well etc counts as individual brilliance? I can tell you that SAF, Sir Matt, Pep, Klopp etc can come and coach you, me and the other 20 CAF posters and we will never beat a good team. Why? because you need players with individual brilliance who can do their jobs better than the others in moments. Why always Maguire on set pieces? Well because we need more individuals who are brilliant in the air. So there you have it. Why some defenders making mistakes often? We need individually brilliant defenders etc. The more you have those players, the better the team will play as a whole. I thought it was obvious.

It does not mean good managers usually can't raise a level or two of a group of players of course. Did Ole do that? It seems like he did at least in the league run. But, can he do it next season? That's what I am waiting to find out.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Sevilla who finished 4th in La Liga you mean?

Still which players from them would you take as starters?

 

[Class of 63]

Get to feck with an embarrassing thread like this.

Ole, Mike and Kieran will know, and have forgotten, more about what's needed at any given time in any game whether we are ahead, or losing than if everybody of a Red persuasion on the forum put their heads together to come up with the answers.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Still which players from them would you take as starters?

Why do you need a list of players from Sevilla? Do you think City want any of Lyons players? It is one 90 minute game. In context of an intense period post covid where squad depth matters more than ever. Just like it will next season too.

Point is no one is claiming Ole needs a 23 man world class squad. But the drop in quality from our first team to our bench players is ridiculous. Any manager would struggle.

Before Bruno came in January we were looking piss poor. We are making progress in the league and reached 3 semi finals. It is not where United should be. But look at our league position over the last 7 years post Fergie. This is the first glimpse of progression since Jose finished 2nd.

 

[romufc]

Nope. There is a massive drop in quality between our first team and our bench.

Shaw to Williams is prime example. Bruno to Lingard another!

Fans fail to understand that a poor Rashford is better than James.

Martial was not playing poorly, he wasnt finishing so you gamble one more chance he will take it.

Same with Greenwood.

Bruno and Pogba played well, they didnt look out of it or injured to be replaced by Lingard and Perreira.

Still which players from them would you take as starters?

This is the laziest argument in football. Do you think Liverpool will take any Athelico players in their team? No.

Do you think City want Lyon players ? No.

Do you think PSG wanted any of our players? herrera went and is on the bench.

And the other argument about them making subs is because their first 11 to their sub drop off is not the same as our first 11 to our subs, BIG BIG difference.

 

[SAFMUTD]

This is the laziest argument in football. Do you think Liverpool will take any Athelico players in their team? No.

Do you think City want Lyon players ? No.

Do you think PSG wanted any of our players? herrera went and is on the bench.

And the other argument about them making subs is because their first 11 to their sub drop off is not the same as our first 11 to our subs, BIG BIG difference.

And that its why my friend all those team that lost were marked as big failures. City loosing to Lyon is a disaster, as much as PSG lossing to us last year and Liverpool lossing to atletico.

Regarding the subs, so its actually and advantage for them to have a medium squad so the drop between starters and bench is not as hard?

Besides City I dont think there's a top team in the world who has similar quality from the starters and the bench. Because top players want to play and wont settle for squad roles.